Tomb of Horrors

[Cuddly]

Spoiled for spoilers; not because it will go faster.

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So there are spheres of annihilation everywhere. What's keeping players from making int checks to roll them straight through the dungeon, bypassing everything? Go with a race like kobold that counts as tiny for making squeeze checks, and those suckers could burrow through that place in a day.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

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There is only one Sphere of Annihilation in the Tomb, and it is immovable. I've never run into one outside of it. But if they did try that, they'd still set off some of the traps, and those would probably kill them. Even if they didn't, the Tomb gets rebuilt by Devils on a regular basis.

[FoE]

What are these "horros" you speak of?

Keep in mind two things:

1) Tomb of Horrors module was released in the days of First Edition, when PCs didn't have Feats, Spot checks and so on. Or at least not to the same extent as PCs in 3.5 Edition (or, presumably, Fourth Edition). There were no rules for monster PCs either.
2) The Sphere of Annihilation trick is just one of many traps in Tomb of Horrors, though it's certainly one of the more infamous pitfalls. Several of these resulted in instant death.

Some of the other infamous challenges I remember:

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a) A cloud of poison gas in a corridor that rendered PCs unconscious, which wouldn't have been a problem had it not been for the giant stone elephant on wheels rolling over them and squishing them flat.
b) Every chest being a trap, revealing either poisonous snakes, arrows or, in one case, a skeletal warrior wielding two swords. Ditto for most of the doors.
c) A demi-lich impervious to virtually all attacks and magic, with the exception of a pile of tiny gemstones that did only one hit point of damage when you threw one of them at the demi-lich. This thing had 50 hit points.

@V: That's the sequel, Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The original had nothing like that. And there was very little treasure in the first Tomb of Horrors, except the aforementioned gemstones that you had to destroy in order to defeat the demi-lich.

[Yahzi]

ToH has about what, 200-300K gold in treasure? Ask somebody who's been through it how much loot they got. That's probably the answer they'll give you.

And yet... there's a 10x10x10 foot door made of solid adamantium. Which is worth billions. If players were clever, they would stop at this door (halfway through the dungeon), dig it out, transport it to the surface, and buy Eberron.

This door exists solely so you will figure out a puzzle to get past it, and it is made of adamantium solely so you won't try to hack it open. Which is pointless, because earlier there is a wooden door which can only be opened by a few methods, and hacking isn't one of them.

ToH epitomizes the design of D&D: let's make an interesting encounter with no regards whatsoever to the encounter that came before, the one the comes after, or the world at large.

I guess I should stop ragging on 4e, then. The same as it always was...

[Demented]

Actually, I recall someone on this forum mentioning a player that found an adamantium door... No, wait, it was a mithril door. And the player carried it around for a while.

By the time you've gotten through half of ToH, I reckon that you're more interested in finishing it than you are gathering the treasure.

[Turcano]

Actually, I recall someone on this forum mentioning a player that found an adamantium door... No, wait, it was a mithril door. And the player carried it around for a while.

If that's the door I think it is, that's a door you do not want to try to pry out.

[Curmudgeon]

And yet... there's a 10x10x10 foot door made of solid adamantium. Which is worth billions.

You're leaping to an unreasonable conclusion here, Yahzi. While items made of adamantine cost a lot, there's no reason to think that's because the material itself is intrinsically valuable. Remember, adamantine is very hard. Almost all of the worth comes from the expense of fabrication, not the raw material.

[Armads]

It's still more profitable to mine the dungeon for it's metals than to try to actually walk through it. The walls are mithril, IIRC.

[puppyavenger]

It's still more profitable to mine the dungeon for it's metals than to try to actually walk through it. The walls are mithril, IIRC.

You wonder why the Lich didn't just buy a scroll of genises and make it impossible to get to.

[Solo]

You wonder why the Lich didn't just buy a scroll of genises and make it impossible to get to.

He's using the Tomb to lure heroes to their doom, fueling some diabolical plot with their souls.

[Ne0]

Yup. I believe his actual goal was to use an artifact to convert strong and cunning souls into negative energy so he could become a god.

[Sebastian]

ToH has about what, 200-300K gold in treasure? Ask somebody who's been through it how much loot they got. That's probably the answer they'll give you.

And yet... there's a 10x10x10 foot door made of solid adamantium. Which is worth billions. If players were clever, they would stop at this door (halfway through the dungeon), dig it out, transport it to the surface, and buy Eberron.

Well, they certainly have to be smart, because a door like it should weight something like a couple of tons, and you probably had to smash down some walls to bring it out, even if you can bring it around, a couple of tons are way beyond the encumbrance limitof the PCs and it is not like the door can fit into a bag of holding even if there is one large enough.
and IIRC the Tomb had these demons that come to reset everything every 24 hours, I don't remember if it include rebuilding walls, but it is possible. It is not so easy how you make it sound.

About the tomb in general, it come from an age where the adventures where meant to be a challenge for the players more than a challenge for the "Characters". You had to think your way throught it more than just use your character sheet.

[UglyPanda]

The WotC staff realized that everyone wanted to steal the doors, so the 3.5 edition only has the doors only look like adamantine and mithral. Also, the walls of the tomb are rock, not mithral.

Digging through the dungeon would help you get past a large part of it, but you don't know where the final encounter is, nor will you have the MacGuffin needed to activate it.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, they certainly have to be smart, because a door like it should weight something like a couple of tons, and you probably had to smash down some walls to bring it out, even if you can bring it around, a couple of tons are way beyond the encumbrance limitof the PCs and it is not like the door can fit into a bag of holding even if there is one large enough.
and IIRC the Tomb had these demons that come to reset everything every 24 hours, I don't remember if it include rebuilding walls, but it is possible. It is not so easy how you make it sound.

About the tomb in general, it come from an age where the adventures where meant to be a challenge for the players more than a challenge for the "Characters". You had to think your way throught it more than just use your character sheet.

It's just Iron, now, but that's still plenty valuable (1 silver per pound). You just need a good solid axe (or iron saw) to cut it into chunks, and a Portable Hole so that the weight doesn't matter. Wealth at 9th is 36k, so it's technically affordable if you're building characters at that level. 1 cubic foot of iron weighs approximately 437 pounds (depending primarily on purity, and how it was shaped; Link for Cast Iron); only 43 gp, 7 sp, to be sure, but do note that a 10 foot by 10 foot by 3 inch iron door is 25 cubic feet, for 1,092.5 gp.

And the place is always repaired up to the same spec... and the traps are essentially static.

[Yahzi]

Well, they certainly have to be smart, because a door like it should weight something like a couple of tons,

If the sheer weight of treasure is the difficulty that prevents your adventurers from taking it, then your adventurers need to get another job, because they're clearly no good at adventuring.

and IIRC the Tomb had these demons that come to reset everything every 24 hours

I don't recall that, but I supposed it's no more idiotic than the rest of the dungeon.

Still, if you give your players the mission "Remove several tons of treasure from deep underground within 24 hours," guess what, they'll get it done. The interesting thing about ToH is that it shows how bad players are, in that they don't recognize treasure because it isn't labeled "Treasure."

Or maybe it's just how bad players have been beaten in to following the rules of modules.

You had to think your way throught it more than just use your character sheet.

No, you had to guess your way through. Thinking was expressly forbidden by all the doors that could only be opened by a few, preset number of ways. Thinking players recognize the door as more valuable than anything else that could possibly be in the entire dungeon.

You're leaping to an unreasonable conclusion here, Yahzi. While items made of adamantine cost a lot, there's no reason to think that's because the material itself is intrinsically valuable.

So the entire economics of the world have to be reinterpreted just to explain a single door in a single dungeon?

This is what I mean about making encounters instead of worlds.

The WotC staff realized that everyone wanted to steal the doors, so the 3.5 edition only has the doors only look like adamantine and mithral.

As did every DM worth the price of his DMG. "As soon as you get it out of the dungeon, it turns to lead."

Also, the walls of the tomb are rock, not mithral.

There is a mithiril vault in there. But aside from that, what is the point of putting a door of adamant hardness in a door frame made out of rock?. What adventurer looks at an adamantium door for more than the 6 seconds it takes his wizard to tunnel around it with rock to mud/summon earth elemental/dimension door/etc.?

The walls of the tomb are made of something other than rock. They are made of (as our DM described it) "only magic," as in "only a few set ways will work, and all other creative attempts are doomed to fail, because it says right here in the module that only these three actions can open the door."

If you allow your players to be creative, ToH is only a horror for the DM.

[Kurald Galain]

If you allow your players to be creative, ToH is only a horror for the DM.

You mean like this?

[Tsotha-lanti]

The WotC staff realized that everyone wanted to steal the doors, so the 3.5 edition only has the doors only look like adamantine and mithral. Also, the walls of the tomb are rock, not mithral.

My first 3.0 campaign featured a dungeon with adamantine doors. The PCs spent the next two sessions after clearing the dungeon trying to find a way to remove and transport those doors.

It's the law of DMing 148 or something. "Players will inevitably try to loot and sell any untransportable objects made of valuable materials."

[FlyMolo]

The whole "Adamantine objects are valuable because they are a pain in the butt to make, not because adamantine is so valuable" theory makes perfect sense. Let's assume, for the moment, that you have a brick of the stuff. Try and make a sword out of it. Go on. Take a hammer to that brick. Let's hope you have a spare, because that one will shatter.

Your best bet for adamantine objects is PaO to get some, and fabricate to make it. Which are high level spells, and you still need Craft(stuff). So even if Adamantine bricks are a buck a dozen at the corner store, making things out of them is seriously expensive.

[Chronos]

Eh, Polymorph any Object is high-level, but you don't want to use that anyway. First, if the material itself is cheap, you don't need it. Second, what's the point in having an adamantine sword if it turns back into dirt the first time someone Dispels Magic on it? Fabricate, though, is only fifth level, well within reach for a wizard who's taking on the Tomb.

As for transporting it out, that's a perfect job for Shrink Item. Not only can you easily carry it now, but it's also out of your way.

[Xuincherguixe]

As did every DM worth the price of his DMG. "As soon as you get it out of the dungeon, it turns to lead."

A lead door would be worth even more than an iron door. But then, if your players are creative enough to remove the door, they probably deserve some kind of reward.

But then, I suppose this is where the real test of creativity comes in. If it turns to lead, the players might not actually realize that it's still worth something.



The jackass DM turns the doors into sand.

Or poison.

[Azerian Kelimon]

A lead door would be worth even more than an iron door. But then, if your players are creative enough to remove the door, they probably deserve some kind of reward.

But then, I suppose this is where the real test of creativity comes in. If it turns to lead, the players might not actually realize that it's still worth something.



The jackass DM turns the doors into sand.

Or poison.

Or kills you because you didn't tip the taxi driver.

[FlyMolo]

Hell, poison is valuable. Even the cheapest stuff is 75gp a vial. Iron is only 1sp/pound. vials are about an oz. so a several ton door is like 2000 pounds*16 ounces= 32000 doses. times 75 gp at least. Makes, oh. roughly, 200000 gold. WBL for a character much much higher than 9. That's if you turn it into drow poison, the cheapest. Unconsciousness only, and a wussy save. Bloodroot makes 320000 round, and Ungol dust makes it 3.2 million gp. If it's the most expensive kind, wyvern poison, you're looking at about 10 million gold.

I'm just saying. Don't count your Dm tricks before they hatch.

[Xuincherguixe]

Hell, poison is valuable. Even the cheapest stuff is 75gp a vial. Iron is only 1sp/pound. vials are about an oz. so a several ton door is like 2000 pounds*16 ounces= 32000 doses. times 75 gp at least. Makes, oh. roughly, 200000 gold. WBL for a character much much higher than 9. That's if you turn it into drow poison, the cheapest. Unconsciousness only, and a wussy save. Bloodroot makes 320000 round, and Ungol dust makes it 3.2 million gp. If it's the most expensive kind, wyvern poison, you're looking at about 10 million gold.

I'm just saying. Don't count your Dm tricks before they hatch.

I suggested poison mostly because of the sentiment. If one was to turn the door to poison, it would not be a big pile of poison powder. A lot of it would be air. Or, the poison is itself a gas.


Turning the door to fire probably is a safe, and effective jerk bet.

[Chronos]

I've just realized: The Tomb of Horrors isn't actually a D&D module. It's a face-to-face text adventure game.


> e
As you pass through the door, the wall magically seals itself behind you. You won't be able to leave this room the same way you entered.
You are in a large square room. The north, west, and east walls are made of stone. The south wall is made of gneiss. Set in a sturdy doorframe in the east wall is a large door of solid mithral.
High above you, you can hear a grinding sound.

> look up
The ceiling is far overhead, shrouded in darkness

> look at door
You see the reflection of a very ugly adventurer in the polished mithral surface. Maybe you shouldn't have taken charisma as your dump stat?

> get door
You can't be serious.
The grinding sound from above is getting louder.

> attack door
With what, the adamantine greataxe, or the rusty pocketknife

> with the axe
I've heard of strange things, but attacking a door?

> attack doorframe with axe
I don't know the word "doorframe"

> attack wall with greataxe
Which wall do you mean, the north wall, the south wall, the east wall, the west wall, or the gneiss wall?

> east wall
I've heard of strange things, but attacking a wall?
The grinding sound is louder yet. You notice that the ceiling (which is made of stone and doubtless weighs several tons) is now visible, and is descending at an alarming rate.

> i
You are carrying:
An everburning torch (providing light)
A handy haversack
A set of improvised thieve's tools
An adamantine greataxe
A ten-foot pole
A rusty pocketknife
A set of stale rations

> brace pole against ceiling
I don't understand the word "brace"

> support ceiling with pole
You manage to brace the pole against the ceiling. The ceiling slows for a moment, but several tons of stone is too much for the pole, and it splinters into thousands of pieces.

> e
The door is closed.

> w
The entrance magically sealed itself behind you.

> f*** this
Such language! Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

> yes
There wasn't a verb in that sentence.
The ceiling completes its decent, turning you into an unsightly red smear on the floor.
You have died. Your score is 3 out of a possible 241 points, earning you the rank of "Pathetic newbie". Would you like to load a saved game, restart, or quit?

> quit
Goodbye.

[Zorg]

Lol @ Chronos :)

If my crew thought to remove the door I'd let them, but then they'd have the next question - who has billions of spare gold to spend on a door? Or who's going to cut it up into manegable chunks? What about all the people who come gunning for them to steal this giant dollar sign?

Make the whole selling process tedious/dangerous enough and they'll just end up dumping the thing in a river somewhere...