SamTheCleric's Look at the 4e Books

[SamTheCleric]

I'm going to try and provide as much of an unbiased opinion as I can during this review. I want to preface the review by saying that I do enjoy the system and have had a great time with it. You can stop reading right there if you are here to troll or flame me.

The Player's Handbook

This hefty book weighs in at just over 300 pages. The cover art and font make it appealing to those who 'judge a book by its cover' (though you shouldn't do that.)

The first chapter goes into detail as to what a role playing game is, gives an example of a game session and gives a basic overview of the book itself. I found this chapter a little boring, but that's because I've been playing D&D for 16 years now and its the same first chapter that's in every RPG book ever published. I did like that they gave examples of each die type and a picture of them... I don't know how many times I've had to explain the dice to new players. Overall, if you're new to D&D you should read this chapter. If not, you can skip it.

The second chapter begins the meat of the book: character creation. The first thing I noticed about this chapter is that the point buy is a little... off. It will take some getting used to (I still haven't memorized the 3e point buy)... but I'm sure that with some practice it will make some sense to me. The major point in this chapter is that the book explains that you are intended to be the good guys and that you start out as heroes. You are not commoners, not merchants... you're a hero. The descriptions of the various gods have been cut down to a paragraph each with 3 "commandments" for each of the good and unaligned gods. The evil gods each get a sentence describing their area of influence. The new alignment system is also detailed in this chapter, though alignment has very little mechanical impact on the game. Much like your choice in deity, alignment is mostly for your roleplaying.

Next up is the Races chapter. Each of the eight races gets three pages devoted to them. The races are Dragonborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Half-elf, Halfling, Human and Tiefling. It seems as though the standard "race creation" is to grant +2 to two stats, a +2 to two skills and an encounter power. Beyond that, each race gets a minor benefit or boost. The only race to break the mold is, of course, Human. They add +2 to the attribute of their choice, an extra trained skill and get an extra at-will power to choose from. I forsee humans retaining their positions as "most common race" by far. I like that only the first page of each race is really the mechanics of the race and the next two pages describe the typical race, give examples of classes the race would be good at and give a minor description of that races' society.

The next chapter is by FAR the largest chapter in the book: The classes. Each class has its powers and paragon paths directly following it, and each class has over 70 powers, 4 paragon paths (well, warlocks have 3) and then the epic destinies of which there are only 4. I'm not going to go into detail about each class and power, but I will say that I love the Paragon Paths... especially since you continue advancing your base class powers through level swaps and retraining, you just get to add the paragon on top of it. Each Paragon path grants you a class ability related to spending action points as well as various other abilities gained at 11 and 16. They also gain an additional Utility, Encounter and Daily power. My favorite Paragon Paths are the Cleric's Angelic Avenger and the Fighter's Kensei. I'm slightly disappointed that there are only 4 epic destinies at launch, but I figure that you don't really NEED more than that at launch. WotC is assuming that most campagins will start at level 1 and they have plenty of time to get more epic destinies created before the majority of the player base hit level 21.

Skills Chapter is up next. The new skill system is the same one used in Star Wars Saga Edition. Being trained in a skill grants you +5 to that skill and you get half of your level (rounded down) to all skills. Being trained in certain skills allow you to do extra things (like being trained in acrobatics lets you reduce falling damage... which is now 1d10 per 10 feet). I wish they had more "trained only" uses for the skills, honestly... but I do like how the skill system works... everyone retains some sort of general knowledge in all areas that they pick up as they go along... but they aren't nearly as good as someone who is focused (trained) in said skill. Even with your +15 from levels, you'd be hard pressed to hit that DC 40 epic thievery check without some kind of assistance.

The Feats chapter. There are around 80 heroic tier feats, 50 paragon and 20 epic. All of the feats provide some small situational benefit either in or out of combat, and some require you to be trained in a certain skill. There is also a feat or two for each race that adds to a racial ability or encounter power. I found it difficult to pick any one feat for a character because they all seemed so useful in various ways. ((Rant: These are not 3rd edition feats by any stretch of the imagination, their power level is much lower)) The jewels of the feat chapter are the beautiful multiclass feats that essentially double your character's choice in powers and the Channel Divinity feats that clerics and paladins can choose from based on their god. My favorite channel divinity feat lets you target an enemy with an ongoing effect that you just rolled a 20 on a save against. I found that a neat mechanic.

The Equipment chapter is where my heart sinks. This part is woefully small. I know that the first splatbook coming out is a 200+ page equipment handbook, but that's no excuse for the piss poor job they did on giving us barely one table on adventuring gear. I also want the stats and price on those kobold glue pots! This chapter was the biggest let down in the entire book. Though I'm happy that there's now a unit of currency that is bigger than the platinum piece... Enter the astral diamond!

Magic Items are are plentiful and span the gamut of usefulness. With the cap on daily item powers and the lack of stat bump items, your choice in items will be more of a challenge. I do like that there is a much smaller reliance on said magic items and that you can probably get by just fine without them, but why would you? I did not spend too much time reading the details of all the items because I'm not yet too worried about it... when I start playing or running adventures outside of the pregens... that's when It'll matter.

The second to last chapter details the mechanics of combat and status effects, terrain, movement... the standard "here's everything that isn't character creation chapter". Everything here is beautifully laid out in nice colored tables and clearly written. There is very little confusing wording. Grapple has been replaced by the simple Grab (reflex vs AC, if hit, target is immobilized). The save mechanic for death is now potentially much deadlier, being that you could fail your first 3 saves and now be dead. Again, i did not spend too much time here as I was more interested in the "new shiny". I skimmed the status effects and movement rules just to get used to them

Closing out the book is the chapter on Rituals. I adore the ritual chapter. I think the mechanic is one of the best additions to D&D that fourth edition has made. By taking a feat and bumping your skills, anyone can potentially be a ritual caster... but the Wizard and Cleric are the ones that get the feat for free. There are rituals from anything from animal messenger up to greater teleportation gates. I imagine the list of rituals is going to exponentially increase with every book released and that we are going to see some very interesting things come out of this mechanic.

The Monster's Manual

This book shocked me. It wastes no time and jumps into the monsters starting on like the 3rd page. It starts with a "how to read a stat block" and then just throws the monsters at you like some cheap 1950s horror movie. The lack of descriptions for the monsters is kinda odd and the lore tables are mostly a joke... but the monsters themselves are fantastic. Each monster has several entries fulfilling different roles and different levels... no more just picking out the kobold and adding a level of ranger to him to make him an archer... there's already an "artillery" version in the entry. At the end of the book are quite a few "Monsters as Playable Races" which all seem quite balanced and the thought of ECL/Level Adjustment is gone.

The Dungeon Master's Guide

Yeah, this reads like stereo instructions. This is SOLELY a book on making campaigns and running games. The entire book is tips and tricks for DMs, how to make skill challenges, how to make traps, how to upgrade monsters with functional or class templates or by level, how to make a town, how to turn your game into a campaign... etc. I found the "play without a dm" kind of interesting... you make characters and use their "random dungeon creation" rules to make a diablo style game in a pinch... for use when your DM isn't available.

--

Overall: My personal opinion is that the system is fantastic and will survive quite well in the market at hand. As JaxGaret has been saying, you -really- need to play the game before passing judgement on it. It plays much better than it reads, because, honestly, it reads like an instruction manual... everything is a rule or mechanic for the game. After playing in 2 games and running 3... I've come to adore the system and have found that it does not change the game outside of combat. The combat is streamlined down to a nearly perfected science, but all of the out of combat roleplay exists and is fun for everyone.

Thank you for your time and have a good day.

[TwystidMynd]

The first thing I noticed about this chapter is that the point buy is a little... off. It will take some getting used to (I still haven't memorized the 3e point buy)... but I'm sure that with some practice it will make some sense to me.

I was also weirded out, too, about the new point buy. I noticed that you get fewer points to distribute, which struck me as odd.... Then I realized, though, that might be the result of having a +4 modifier for every race, instead of a +0 modifier for most races.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm not sure exactly what you got put off by, but I know that I was also put off. I noticed that you get fewer points to distribute, which struck me as odd, but then I realized that might be the result of having a +4 modifier for every race, instead of a +0 modifier for most races.

Well its 10 10 10 10 10 8 and you get 22 points... so technically it's just a 32 point buy and they spent 10 of your points for you... that was my first sore spot. The next is that the cost doesnt seem to have a formula to it... or not one that I immediately saw.

[Scintillatus]

Yeah, the difference between 14 in 3e and 4e WEIRDED me out. It ruined my first few character builds because I was still running off normal 32 point buy.

[Myshlaevsky]

I actually like the new point buy, and thank god that it's the default, rather than dice rolling. The only difference is it's more expensive, and they make you pay more for modifiers - +1 costs 2, +2 costs 3 more than the previous one, +3 costs 4 more than the previous one, +4 costs 5 more than the previous one.

[SamTheCleric]

Sorry I didnt give as big a review for the other two books... I spent most of my time with PHB.

If you're just planning on playing... you really don't need the DMG or MM at all.

[stupnick]

Well. My opinion on 4e, is rather twisted.

For almost the last 10 years i have played 1st edition. I wouldn't touch 3rd or 3.5 because of the problems and powergaming issues. Reluctantly in the last 2 years because i couldn't find another single person interested in 1st edition, i have changed over to 3.5. Yes, the system is ok, but it screams power gaming and min maxing.

I have dreaded 4th edition since they stated they were going to be swapping. Reading reviews and tidbits released, and seeing a few how to's online, my dread grew. I severly was dreading when I would need to find a new game to play or find a new group to play with because everyone was happy about it because more opportunities.

Then my friend got the books a week and a half early, and I had a chance to skim through them and read them. WOW i was suprised. I actually liked the system reading it, it seemed streamlined and simplified. I have played in 2 games and am running 1 atm as well.

The game is the best edition of DnD they have put out yet. It makes the game more user friendly and allows new people to join and understand from the beginning, while still allowing older more established players the opportunity to still play the same characters they love with a little twist.

[Starsinger]

I can't believe you mentioned the point buy without mentioning the list of pre-spent point buys that followed, perfect for people who play point buy but aren't good with the number crunching for it (like this one for example).

[SamTheCleric]

I can't believe you mentioned the point buy without mentioning the list of pre-spent point buys that followed, perfect for people who play point buy but aren't good with the number crunching for it (like this one for example).

Yes, that table full of pre-spent points is where I spend all my time.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I'd just like to note I appreciate the review. I've been dreading the new edition, being the old gaming fart I am who hates the changes to his beloved old system, no matter how crummy it was. It's easy to stay wrapped up in my protective blanket of fear, but an honest review like this gets me a little more interested in what's to come.

[Indon]

I found it odd that the player's guide had so much flavor text, and then you turn around and the monster manual is crunchier than a handful of fried nuts. If this is how future splatbooks will roll, then I am... interested. Ambivalently so, but interested.

I can't say I'm a fan of only being able to have one below-average stat (which literally can not be below average after a certain point). But I understand that it's a part of the lets-take-freedom-from-the-players-so-they-cant-break-the-game paradigm.

If you're just planning on playing... you really don't need the DMG or MM at all.

You would need the MM to have things to fight, though (or the DMG to build them from scratch). You might as well not bother with the PHB if you don't have either the MM or the DMG ('cause you aren't going to have anything to use your powers on :P).

I liked how the DMG included the mob creation rules.

[SamTheCleric]

You would need the MM to have things to fight, though (or the DMG to build them from scratch). You might as well not bother with the PHB if you don't have either the MM or the DMG ('cause you aren't going to have anything to use your powers on :P).

Well, I meant you don't need them as a player. As long as the DM has them, you should be good to go.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

One thing I'd like to know ...

Back in 1e and 2e, the DMG offered the creative DM tools and advice on constructing and designing his own campaign world. It seemed to me that 3e did not facilitate this as much, and in some aspects it even seemed to me a tacit discourgement from designing one's own world (just personal observation). Does the 4e DMG seem ready to give the DM the reins of his own world?

[SamTheCleric]

One thing I'd like to know ...

Back in 1e and 2e, the DMG offered the creative DM tools and advice on constructing and designing his own campaign world. It seemed to me that 3e did not facilitate this as much, and in some aspects it even seemed to me a tacit discourgement from designing one's own world (just personal observation). Does the 4e DMG seem ready to give the DM the reins of his own world?

I haven't read the entire book as of yet... but there are chapters dedicated to turning your game into a campaign and how to design your own cities and towns... as well as NPC creation.

I don't think there's anything specifically for WORLD creation... but that may be because they want to sell their setting books.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I haven't read the entire book as of yet... but there are chapters dedicated to turning your game into a campaign and how to design your own cities and towns... as well as NPC creation.

I don't think there's anything specifically for WORLD creation... but that may be because they want to sell their setting books.

Ah. That's something I've missed in WotC D&D. There were published worlds before, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and (one of my favorites) Dark Sun, but the game never shied from giving a DM tools to design and bring his own setting to life. 3e was very shy on any material such as that.

[ghost_warlock]

Ah. That's something I've missed in WotC D&D. There were published worlds before, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and (one of my favorites) Dark Sun, but the game never shied from giving a DM tools to design and bring his own setting to life. 3e was very shy on any material such as that.

I'm not sure what, exactly, you're looking for... Both the DMG and the DMG II had sections devoted to homebrew campaigns - city-building, economics, information about medeival society. Cityscape, Dungeonscape, and the environment (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) books included detailed information for those...environments. The Monster Manuals had numerous creatures to populate these settings. Unearthed Arcana included all sorts of rules variants you could use to shake up the feel of your homebrew universe. The Manual of the Planes mostly detailed the Great Wheel, but I think it also contained some ideas about setting up your own cosmology. What else do you want?

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I'm not sure what, exactly, you're looking for... Both the DMG and the DMG II had sections devoted to homebrew campaigns - city-building, economics, information about medeival society. Cityscape, Dungeonscape, and the environment (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) books included detailed information for those...environments. The Monster Manuals had numerous creatures to populate these settings. Unearthed Arcana included all sorts of rules variants you could use to shake up the feel of your homebrew universe. The Manual of the Planes mostly detailed the Great Wheel, but I think it also contained some ideas about setting up your own cosmology. What else do you want?

Of the above books, I own or have owned: the DMG, the Monster Manual, and the Manual of the Planes. What I want is to be able to open the DMG and feel encouraged to step out and make my own setting.

[SamTheCleric]

Oh, I left something out about the DMG...

The DMG does offer more evil dieties beyond what are presented in the PHB and goes on to say that if you wanted to reflavor the cleric/paladin spells to be necrotic damage and instead of "blinded by radiance" you're "blinded by growing shadows"... you can quite easily without impacting the game at all. The evil gods also get the commandment treatment that the good/unaligned ones get from the PHB... but still, very little impact on the mechanics of the game, only on the character and how they play out.

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun than you'd think.

[Indon]

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun that you'd think.

Oh, I don't doubt that I could run an awesome game in 4'th edition - because I have years of experience playing and DM'ing tabletop RPG's.

But I could do a much better game in Exalted, or even 3.x D&D, unless and until I hack, hammer, and rebuild 4'th edition into a game system that could support what I can do as a DM.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, I left something out about the DMG...

I believe that experienced DMs or GMs will not need to buy the DMG, because nearly all of it is advise rather than crunch. I think that's a good thing, actually.

[InaVegt]

Of the above books, I own or have owned: the DMG, the Monster Manual, and the Manual of the Planes. What I want is to be able to open the DMG and feel encouraged to step out and make my own setting.

Chapter 9: The world.

I starts out with the core assumptions, the page after, it suggests changing those to create an unique world. They even give suggestions on how you might do it.

Then town system, with suggestions and encouragement on changing it following right after.

The wild, not much for changing, but I think it'd work similar most places.

The cosmology, not much for changing either, but it's fluff only.

The gods, this is just meant to extend upon the Evil gods.

The mechanics which might or might not have an impact on your game start flowing.

So, basically. As long as you don't mind generic wild and cosmology, fiddle as you wish. WotC likes you to.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I believe that experienced DMs or GMs will not need to buy the DMG, because nearly all of it is advise rather than crunch. I think that's a good thing, actually.

Nope, you still need it. For example, the treasure parcels, or the improvise rules, or the DC's.

[stupnick]

Nope, you still need it. For example, the treasure parcels, or the improvise rules, or the DC's.

all that stuff is advised items. Most good DM's can come up with that stuff on there own on the fly. Rewarding treasure, coming up with DC's... it's rather easy to do, and you would need to adjust those items that are listed in the DMG anyways based on your group, and there optimization ability.

if the DMG says 25, but your group could only hit a 25 on a roll of 19 or 20, you would need to adjust that down to at least give them a 16-20 or 15-20

[Azerian Kelimon]

all that stuff is advised items. Most good DM's can come up with that stuff on there own on the fly. Rewarding treasure, coming up with DC's... it's rather easy to do, and you would need to adjust those items that are listed in the DMG anyways based on your group, and there optimization ability.

if the DMG says 25, but your group could only hit a 25 on a roll of 19 or 20, you would need to adjust that down to at least give them a 16-20 or 15-20

Trust me, it's not that easy. Page 42, for example, is a godsend.

Not to mention things like the XP awarded by quests, how to run skill challenges, how to apply class templates, etc.

[Tengu]

The rules for giving out experience are also in the DMG. Of course, they are not necessary either - since you don't lose experience when crafting or getting killed and raised now, nothing stops the DM from simply making players level up when he feels like it.

What I love about 4e DMG is that there is no longer anything that might interest players here. Well, apart from one thing - since it states that merchants usually sell magic items 10-40% higher than their price, it is efficient from an economical standpoint to use item enchanting/potion brewing rituals.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun that you'd think.

Well, I tried oysters a while back and learned I loved them, so there's no reason for me not to try this new edition. I mean to play the game, not to ingest it, mind you. I may voice concerns, express doubts, and wax nostalgic; but concerns cannot be relieved, doubts cannot be assuaged, and the "good ole days" cannot be put to rest if I don't actually try the new system out.

Dare I say it? I may even be open to the possibility that I could enjoy this more than my old game.

[SamTheCleric]

Dare I say it? I may even be open to the possibility that I could enjoy this more than my old game.

Hey, if I've even influenced just one opinion... I've done good.

[ghost_warlock]

Hey, if I've even influenced just one opinion... I've done good.

You've influenced a lot of opinions, Sam. Or, at least, I think so. In any case, you've offered a lot of straightforward details and reviews of the new material, which is very much appreciated!

It's just too bad that honestly educating some of us about the system may have had the opposite effect you may have wanted. I honestly haven't liked a lot of what I've heard and the more I hear about it the less I tend to like...so to speak. Maybe you're not trying to win people over to 4e, but it may be in your advantage to do so (more 4e players = more people to potentially play 4e with). Still, offering honest reviews at face value rather than skewing the reality in order to win people over reflects very well on your credibility and respectability.

4e could be a fantastic system, but it simply isn't a fantastic system for the types of games some of us want to play. You realize, and respect, that 4e simply isn't for everyone.

In the slew of 4e-related NEEEEEERRD RAAAAAAGE!!! threads I've read, you're one of the few pro-4e posters who hasn't managed to piss me off by insulting my intelligence, or my playstyle, by oversimplification or outright misrepresentation of my position. I sincerely thank you for your honesty and fair-mindedness.

[SamTheCleric]

Wow. Thanks!

I don't really want to badger people into one system or the other. I like 3rd edition a lot, as well... and am not just gonna drop everything to jump to fourth... I've got two campaigns to finish up!

If nothing else, I just hope people give 4e a chance.

[Starsinger]

If nothing else, I just hope people give 4e a chance.

It would solve a lot of problems if all of the naysayers did that.