[4e] Low Level Strikers vs Rogues!

[Yakk]

Barring the Halfling Dodger build (ignore OA because your AC is infinite against them), a low level Rogue seems to have serious problems getting into position to do OA.

Does anyone else think it is strange that the Ranger has at-will attack-and-shift powers, while the Rogue ... lacks them?

Per-encounter powers with slides and shifts are neat and all. But they are per-encounter.

And heck, compare the Warlock encounter-slides:
Range 5, Con vs Fort (no weapon), 2d8+con with 2 square slide
Rogue:
Melee, Dex vs Will (Weapon), [W]+dex with 1 square slide
with a dagger:
Melee, Dex+4 vs Will , d4+dex with 1 square slide

averages:
Range 5, Con vs Fort, 9+con 2 square slide
Melee, Dex+4 vs Will, 2.5+dex with 1 square slide
With a base 50-50 chance of hitting, and a stat of 18:

Range 5, Con vs Fort, 6.5, 50% 2 square slide -- avg 1.0 slide
Melee, Dex+4 vs Will, 4.55 70% 1 square slide -- avg 0.7 slide

You can do +1 damage (sword sword) for -1 to hit (lack of rogue weapon talent), but that is usually relatively poor tradeoff.

The Warlock gets Range 5, +1.625 damage per -1 to hit, and twice as large a slide (both have sub-class bonuses).

Heck, look at Shadow Walk. Concealment basically every turn -- which means a warlock can do a stealth check nearly willy-nilly.

...

Second and tangentally, Light Blades and Dex. At a number of spots, it is said that Light Blades are all about Dex. Warriors who pick light blades "dex is sometimes enough" (?), the description of the light blade weapon class, etc.

But barring a dex-based power with light blades (which is quite rare -- only Rogues have it at-will), dex is actually relatively useless with light blades. You attack with a dagger using Strength just like everything else.

I'm tempted to add in "When using a Light Blade and attacking, you may substitute Dex for Str on the to-hit roll. This works on any attack, be it a basic attack or a power. If the attack already applies a Dex bonus to attack, then you may not substitute in Dex."

This makes Dex on a Light Blade worse than Strength (because you can only boost accuracy or damage -- a person with 18 str 12 dex will use a light blade better than someone with 12 str 18 dex), but at the same time make Dex-based light blade more viable. Someone with higher Dex than Str will prefer a Light Blade to a Heavy Blade (except the lower damage die).

As a side effect, multiclass Rogues aren't completely screwed if they want to be dex-based and mix with a Ranger or Fighter. And dex-based light-blade Ranger/Fighters become viable (not as good as heavy-blade Ranger/Fighters often...)

...

There is a similar problem with Rangers.

Archer: single feat, which ... lets you avoid AOs. AOs only happen in melee range...
Melee: a uniquely powerful class ability (can use a full-sized weapon in your offhand), and a feat that gives you extra HP (which works well, thematically, for a character who is going to be in melee range).

Admittedly, Prime Shot works best with a Ranged based ranger. But ... a ranged based ranger with the Melee build can just use an arrow and take the +5 HP/tier!

Seems very strange.

But ignoring that weirdness, the ranger has 3 "decent" at wills (careful sucks). The first lets them disengage from combat (hit and run)... but only if they started in combat at the start of their turn. The second is a shift-based ranged combat ability (quite useful for a ranged ranger), and the last is the bread-and-butter of the ranger class: twin strike.

...

Fox's Cunning is an example of an ability that a Rogue would go "oh, I want". Evasive Strike, same (barring the str based component). Both are shift-based abilities that would, for example, really help a Rogue get combat advantage via Flanking.

But ... the Ranger gets them. And the Rogue gets abilities that, at best, slide the target after the Rogue hits.

Tumble is a per-encounter ability that lets the Rogue shift 3 squares, at level 2. Cute and all -- but that's maybe a single flank attack per encounter from it, if lucky. Unbalancing Parry (which flat-out grants combat advantage for your next strike)... I mean, huh? Did the Ranger hit the Rogue and take his stuff?

Oh, and Shadow Wasp Strike vs Evasive Strike -- is it just me, or is SWS completely worse than Evasive Strike (Ranger 3 vs Ranger 1).

Maybe my test run -- with 2 high level characters instead of a swarm of characters -- resulted in not enough dazing and other CA-causing moves. And in real game play, the "Sneak Attack" feature kicks ass compared to the Warlock marking and Ranger marking feature, so Rogue abilities are made to suck in response.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Rogues DO have attack and move powers, FYI. Deft strike being the classic example.

[Saph]

Oh, and Shadow Wasp Strike vs Evasive Strike -- is it just me, or is SWS completely worse than Evasive Strike (Ranger 3 vs Ranger 1).

Yeah, it's worse in every way. It's kind of weird. Maybe they just didn't playtest Rangers very much?

Rogues DO have attack and move powers, FYI. Deft strike being the classic example.

It draws AoO's, though. Deft Strike is fine if you outnumber them, but not if they outnumber you - and the monsters usually outnumber the PCs in 4e.

- Saph

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, it's worse in every way. It's kind of weird. Maybe they just didn't playtest Rangers very much?

- Saph

Seems to be the case. Just...just compare the high level TWF powers. Follow up Blow and Weave a Web of Steel are incredibly sucky, with the encounter powers being much better.

[Bearonet]

I think things like Shadow Wasp vs. Evasive are more likely to be the product of last-minute adjustments than a lack of testing!

There's also a level 23 cleric encounter power that's exactly like a level 27 encounter power, except it does a little more.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, it's worse in every way. It's kind of weird. Maybe they just didn't playtest Rangers very much?



It draws AoO's, though. Deft Strike is fine if you outnumber them, but not if they outnumber you - and the monsters usually outnumber the PCs in 4e.

- Saph

There are multiple "Shift X" powers in the utility and encounter list, as well as others that null OA's. There's Bait and switch, Ignoble escape, Bloody path, Dazzling acrobatics, etc.

[JaxGaret]

Yakk, it sounds like what you really want to play is a Rogue/Ranger

There's also a level 23 cleric encounter power that's exactly like a level 27 encounter power, except it does a little more.

Healing Torch vs. Sunburst? The fact that SB allows you to make an extra save is big. Plus SB doesn't use up a Healing Surge. I would say it's just about right, or at least one isn't clearly better than the other.

[Jarlax]

don't go looking for shift and move powers on the rouge list.

go look on the fighter list.

level 1 encounter power, covering attack. on hit an ally adjacent to the enemy can shift 2 squares.

warlords have a similar power as an at-will power. allowing an ally to shift 1 square but which occurs before the attack so the ally can shift whether the attack succeeds or fails.

this is how classes work together, complimenting each others abilities and strengths, rouges need to flank, but it has always been difficult to do short of tumbling through the opponent, now they can count on the tank to get them into flanking position in the second round of combat.

[JaxGaret]

don't go looking for shift and move powers on the rouge list.

go look on the fighter list.

level 1 encounter power, covering attack. on hit an ally adjacent to the enemy can shift 2 squares.

warlords have a similar power as an at-will power. allowing an ally to shift 1 square but which occurs before the attack so the ally can shift whether the attack succeeds or fails.

this is how classes work together, complimenting each others abilities and strengths, rouges need to flank, but it has always been difficult to do short of tumbling through the opponent, now they can count on the tank to get them into flanking position in the second round of combat.

That's a very, very good point, Jarlax.

It also may depend on how large your party is. It's possible that Rangers work better as lone wolves, and so are better in smaller parties or parties with lots of Strikers and Controllers, but Rogues work better with flanking teammates - Defenders and Leaders - and so are better in larger parties or Defender/Leader heavy parties.