4e Combat Advantage

[BardicDuelist]

I got the 4e books yesterday. Of all the classes, the rogue looks the most interesting to me, except for one thing: it's total reliance on gaining combat advantage. Because it seems to be the most important tactical aspect of this class, I wanted to complile a list of Powers/Situations/Tactics which will grant Combat Advantage. Please list these with the page numbers and levels at which they are available (and if it is possible for a rogue to gain on his own).

When a defender is . . .
Balancing (page 180)
Blinded (page 277)
Climbing (page 182)
Dazed (page 277)
Flanked by the attacker (page 285)
Helpless (page 277)
Prone (melee attacks only) (page 277)
Restrained (page 277)
Running (page 291)
Squeezing (page 292)
Stunned (page 277)
Surprised (page 277)
Unable to see the attacker (page 281)
Unaware of you (page 188)
Unconscious (page 277)

It can also be gained once per encounter with a successful Bluff check.

Heroic

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Within the Rogue class:
First Strike (p.117, level 1), Dazing Strike/Encounter (p.118, level 1), Blinding Barrage/Day (p. 119, level 1), Easy Target/Day (p.119, level 1).

Setup Strike/Encounter (p.120, level 3), Toppel Over/Encounter (p.120, level 3)

Walking Wounded/Day (p.120, level 5)

Chameleon (p.120, level 6)

Sand in the Eyes/Encounter (p.121, level 7)

Crimson Edge/Day (p.121, level 9), Knockout/Day (p.121, level 9)

Shadow Stride (p.122, level 10)

[Kizara]

This is somehow superior to 3.x's Denied their Dex to AC mechanic? Which seems more intuitive then this.

It also wasn't seperate terminology for no reason.

[LeZebra]

I'm sorry, what's wrong with this mechanic? That's a pretty long list compared to how 30% of all monsters couldn't be sneak attacked at all like in 3e. I'm all set to start a campaign playing a rogue next week, and I'm finding that there are plenty of ways to get a sneak attack off, and plenty of ways to have fun being creative about it. Not always creative either, as there are lots of powers in my companions arsenal that daze, stun, trip, etc our mutual opponents.

set 'em up, knock 'em down. what's not fun about this?

[Bearonet]

This is somehow superior to 3.x's Denied their Dex to AC mechanic? Which seems more intuitive then this.

It also wasn't seperate terminology for no reason.

It's pretty similar, except we now have a single term for "denied Dex to AC or flanked or...", and it matters to everyone, not just rogues (since Combat Advantage grants +2 to hit). It unifies things like denied dexterity to AC, flanking, and the like into a single mechanic/term, which seems more intuitive, not less.

[Kurald Galain]

This is somehow superior to 3.x's Denied their Dex to AC mechanic?

If nothing else, the term "combat advantage" is easier than "your opponent being denied his dexterity bonus to armor class regardless of whether he had such a bonus to begin with'.

[Yakk]

In short, barring rare daily powers, a Rogue outdamages anyone else against a single target if it has combat advantage.

But ... it is hard to get combat advantage. A melee Rogue is quite poor at it (a non-melee Rogue can use stealth cheese). The easiest method remains Flanking -- but in 4e, Flanking has to be "perfect" -- as in exactly opposite sides -- which means unless the target is prevented from moving, the Rogue can easily lose flanking and not be able to get it again without moving 2 squares (risking a flurry of opportunity attacks) on anyone...

On top of this, the Rogue is the only Striker who cannot disengage and go kill an annoying Artillery attacker all by themselves. The Rogue is heavily dependent on other party members "setting up" the combat advantage.

...

I tried to fill these holes over here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...57#post4428557

[Draz74]

This is somehow superior to 3.x's Denied their Dex to AC mechanic? Which seems more intuitive then this.

It also wasn't seperate terminology for no reason.

Really? I have to disagree with you here. There's a lot that I don't like about 4e, but this is exactly the nice minor kind of simplification in 4e's tactical rules, compared to 3e, that I will definitely be adopting in my own 3e-based homebrew system.

With some minor differences. I'm not sure prone should grant combat advantage, for example.

[Bearonet]

In short, barring rare daily powers, a Rogue outdamages anyone else against a single target if it has combat advantage.

But ... it is hard to get combat advantage. A melee Rogue is quite poor at it (a non-melee Rogue can use stealth cheese). The easiest method remains Flanking -- but in 4e, Flanking has to be "perfect" -- as in exactly opposite sides -- which means unless the target is prevented from moving, the Rogue can easily lose flanking and not be able to get it again without moving 2 squares (risking a flurry of opportunity attacks) on anyone...

On top of this, the Rogue is the only Striker who cannot disengage and go kill an annoying Artillery attacker all by themselves. The Rogue is heavily dependent on other party members "setting up" the combat advantage.

...

I tried to fill these holes over here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...57#post4428557

Have you actually played 4E, yet? Because wow, gaining Combat Advantage is EASY! You can flank, you have powers that grant it, you have powers that inflict the conditions you grant it...

And most importantly, you have your teammates. When the cleric uses Command to daze an enemy and throw him prone, you get Combat Advantage because of the Gaze! When the Warlock blinds or stuns an enemy, you get Combat Advantage! When the wizard dazes an enemy, you get Combat Advantage! There are a lot of powers that give you combat advantage because of the conditions they inflict. The Rogue is a great class, and I don't think it needs any help whatsoever.

[AslanCross]

... The easiest method remains Flanking -- but in 4e, Flanking has to be "perfect" -- as in exactly opposite sides ...

Wasn't it that way in 3.5 too? The diagram in the PHB says a line drawn through the two flankers must pass through opposite sides or corners of the monster's occupied square. (p. 152-153)

[Kizara]

It's pretty similar, except we now have a single term for "denied Dex to AC or flanked or...", and it matters to everyone, not just rogues (since Combat Advantage grants +2 to hit). It unifies things like denied dexterity to AC, flanking, and the like into a single mechanic/term, which seems more intuitive, not less.

Yep, point conceeded. Although having all those terms is valuable for describing the individual circumstances where they apply. Nonethless, the umbrella term is useful.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not sure prone should grant combat advantage, for example.

In what way does lying on the ground NOT give your opponent an advantage???

[Spiryt]

In what way does lying on the ground NOT give your opponent an advantage???

When he is shooting maybe... Although even then I would say that shooting to prone guy is easier than to running one.

[Xyk]

Yeah lying prone means you have a negligible amount of motion unless you are specifically trained to fight while on the ground. From the small amount of martial arts training I have had, there is an absolute emphasis on getting up quick and not falling down.

[Spiryt]

Yeah lying prone means you have a negligible amount of motion unless you are specifically trained to fight while on the ground.

If I know something about martial arts and motion in general, "fighting on the ground" means that you are in grapple with other guy trying to choke/break him.

Not that orc above is bashing you with axe.

[Yakk]

Have you actually played 4E, yet? Because wow, gaining Combat Advantage is EASY! You can flank, you have powers that grant it, you have powers that inflict the conditions you grant it...

I ran a 4e fight in a crunchy manner against some friends.

As the DM, I found it relatively easy to deny flanking to the Rogue, unless the Rogue was willing to get chopped up by multiple AOs. And if the Rogue did do that, it was relatively easy to proceed to swarm the Rogue.

Abilities do exist that grant combat advantage. But in both of the sets of adventurers we used (the first module sample characters, and a high level fighter/rogue pair), it was pretty rare. Possibly a different set of characters would make it happen more often.

Your allies might attempt a given per-encounter move that causes CA status once per encounter each. It lands half of the time. So with 4 allies, that's 2 CA per fight from your allies direct powers. Using powers, you generate another half per encounter, bringing it up to 2.5 CA chances per fight.

The rest relies on flanking, or party members burning daily powers. And that presumes that every ally has an encounter power that grants combat advantage!

As you gain levels, things will get better. More encounter powers by you and your allies means more status debuffs per fight, which means easier to get combat advantage. You are still left as a being who mostly attacks targets which your allies choose.

[Bearonet]

I ran a 4e fight in a crunchy manner against some friends.

As the DM, I found it relatively easy to deny flanking to the Rogue, unless the Rogue was willing to get chopped up by multiple AOs. And if the Rogue did do that, it was relatively easy to proceed to swarm the Rogue.

Abilities do exist that grant combat advantage. But in both of the sets of adventurers we used (the first module sample characters, and a high level fighter/rogue pair), it was pretty rare. Possibly a different set of characters would make it happen more often.

If you were running it with two characters, there's your problem!
I didn't have too much trouble gaining combat advantage consistently in the sample module. I have even less trouble with the full rules, between a duelist weapon, my own power selection, and my party selcting their own powers (Color Spray dazes enemies, for example).

[BardicDuelist]

While the discussion on comat advantage is interesting, it wasn't really the intended point in the thread. I was looking to compile a list of common tactical situations/build options that easily grant combat advantage.

[JaxGaret]

If you were running it with two characters, there's your problem!
I didn't have too much trouble gaining combat advantage consistently in the sample module. I have even less trouble with the full rules, between a duelist weapon, my own power selection, and my party selcting their own powers (Color Spray dazes enemies, for example).

It's been my contention that the Rogue works better in larger parties, and parties composed more heavily of Leaders/Defenders, so that they have more flanking buddies.

Rangers, being more adept at lone wolf tactics, work better in smaller groups and parties composed more heavily of Strikers and Controllers, who aren't looking to flank.

[Draz74]

In what way does lying on the ground NOT give your opponent an advantage???

It does ... but I'm just not sure it should give the same kind of advantage that the other situations give. For example, a Rogue Sneak Attacking his foe, just because his foe is prone, just doesn't run cinematically in my head.

I'd love to know if I'm wrong, though, and if Sneak Attacking a prone character makes perfect sense. Because I can't actually pin down a reason why it doesn't "look right" to me.

[JaxGaret]

It does ... but I'm just not sure it should give the same kind of advantage that the other situations give. For example, a Rogue Sneak Attacking his foe, just because his foe is prone, just doesn't run cinematically in my head.

I'd love to know if I'm wrong, though, and if Sneak Attacking a prone character makes perfect sense. Because I can't actually pin down a reason why it doesn't "look right" to me.

Why doesn't it "look right" to you?

You're lying on the ground, instead of on your feet, ready to fight. It's a terrible position to be in during a fight.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I know. But when I picture the sneaky halfling thief poking the prone guy with a dagger, it just doesn't seem like he'd be as effective at hitting a vital spot and doing extra damage as he would be if the target was instead flanked, dazed, etc.

[Bearonet]

He can just crouch down for a moment and stab him right in the kidney. Kidneys make great stabbin' targets.

[Antacid]

While the discussion on comat advantage is interesting, it wasn't really the intended point in the thread. I was looking to compile a list of common tactical situations/build options that easily grant combat advantage.

Can't you just look through the books?

[wodan46]

There are 3 central ways to get combat advantage:
1. Flank someone.
2. Have status effect applied to someone.
3. Become unseen by someone.

The third one is the one that isn't discussed as much, but basically, when you take a move action, you can also make a stealth check to hide/move silently vs. an enemy's perception check, if you are moving into a position where you are concealed by terrain such as trees or another player. If successful, the enemy can't see you, and you gain combat advantage.

This method is vital for Rogues who prefer sneak attacking with Crossbows and Slings from a distance, as they can't flank people and status effects are hard to keep active every round.

[Vikingkingq]

In terms of generating CA for Rogues:

1. You get it on your first turn in an encounter if you act before the enemy does; with a high initiative, this should always be the case.
2. If you can use Stealth effectively (although the game makes that hard).
3. Use Dazing Strike (Rogue Encounter 1) to daze the opponent.
4. Use Positioning Strike (ibid) to move the target so that you flank it.
5. Use Blinding Barrage (Rogue Daily 1) to blind enemies in a blast.
6. Use Easy Target (ibid) to give you CA on hit.
7. Use Trick Strike (ibid) to move the target so that you flank it.
8. Use Tumble (Rogue Utility 2) to shift around until you flank it.
9. Use Bait and Switch (Rogue Encounter 3) to move both of you until you flank.
10. Use Setup Strike (Rogue Encounter 3) to give you CA on hit.l
11. Use Topple Over (ibid) to knock the target prone.
12. Use Walking Wounded (Rogue Daily 5) to knock target prone repeatedly.
13. Use Sand in Eyes (Rogue Encounter 7) to blind target.
14. Use Crimson Edge (Rogue Daily 9) to gain ongoing CA.
15. Use Deadly Positioning (ibid) to move the target until you flank it for the rest of the encounter.
16. Use Knockout (ibid) for a guaranteed Daze, and chance for unconscious.
17. Use Close Quarters (Rogue Utility 10) to gain and keep CA v. large target.
18. Use Stunning Strike (Rogue Encounter 13) to stun target.
19. Use Tornado Strike (ibid) to move target until you flank it.
20. Use Hounding Strike (Rogue Encounter 17) to gain CA.
21. Use Stab and Grab (ibid) to immobilize target.
22. Use Flying Foe (Rogue Daily 19) to shift target until you fkabj,
.................and so on.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeah, I know. But when I picture the sneaky halfling thief poking the prone guy with a dagger, it just doesn't seem like he'd be as effective at hitting a vital spot and doing extra damage as he would be if the target was instead flanked, dazed, etc.

It's quite simple: The Rogue jumps on top of him and stabs him in the vitals. It's not any harder to picture than the Rogue stabbing him in the vitals once he turns to deal with his other opponent.

[Draz74]

It's quite simple: The Rogue jumps on top of him and stabs him in the vitals. It's not any harder to picture than the Rogue stabbing him in the vitals once he turns to deal with his other opponent.

For me it is. But I guess the consensus is that this is just a random mental block on my part.

[BardicDuelist]

Can't you just look through the books?

Yes, I can. However, I miss things as well. If you havn't used the foums a lot, then I'll let you slide, but back before everything was a complaint and an answer to a complaint, quite often you would see rules questions and people trying to compile comprehensive lists. I was looking for other ways to go about things so that this could be used as a reference, just like so many of the "good" threads are. My mistake. I guess this forum has changed in my absence.

Thanks to VikingKingq. I allready have most of that for heroic tier, but thanks for the rest.

What about powers accessable through multiclass feats/odd rules situations?

Thanks to those who have helped.