[4E] Rituals

[Enlong]

So. I just bought the 4E Core books, and have gotten to the chapter on Rituals.
I wanna know what you guys think of them.

Personally, I love Rituals. They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful. I can actually see myself using Tenser's Floating Disk now, because I know it won't impede my ability to use casting ability for battle purposes. Oh, and I love Linked Portal. I can just imagine a party setting up a small fort as their base of operations, and making a teleportation circle to get back there whenever they needed to return. Or having a team of mages use Magic Circle to ward a city in preparation for an attack by an army (a high check would defend against all but the strongest monsters)

Basically, the reason I like Rituals is because they give us a use for the spells that nobody prepared on a daily basis, and presents them to us in a way that allows us to have them ready without wasting magic that could otherwise be used for battle purposes. Like... you never used to prepare Tenser's Floating Disk, because you knew that if you were staring down a troll or something, and all you have left is the "I'm too frail to carry my share of the treasure" spell, then you were screwed. But now you can save your actual spells for battle, and whip out a ritual to carry all that loot for you. It just fills me with glee because to me... it just works now.

Also, I have one small question. Can you ride your own Tenser's Floating Disk now? I don't seem to see anything that says you can't. And that would be awesome if you could.

[Emperor Tippy]

Secret Chest is fun.

The problem with the spells that reference permanent teleportation circles is that the rules give no way to create them that I could find.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Personally, I love Rituals. They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful. I can actually see myself using Tenser's Floating Disk now, because I know it won't impede my ability to use casting ability for battle purposes. Oh, and I love Linked Portal. I can just imagine a party setting up a small fort as their base of operations, and making a teleportation circle to get back there whenever they needed to return. Or having a team of mages use Magic Circle to ward a city in preparation for an attack by an army (a high check would defend against all but the strongest monsters)

They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful.

all the utility spells from 3.5

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Personally, I object to the line about usable fashion? Seriously, give up precious gold forever to get a floating disk one time? Crap on a stick.

[Saph]

Compared to 3.5's utility spells, 4e's rituals are unimpressive. Trust me, anything you've described can be done better and more entertainingly by a 3.5 caster.

Comparing them to nothing, and just looking at them on their own merits . . . eh. I've read the chapter several times, but can't get very interested in them, for two reasons:

• Casting time. Having to take 10 minutes to get the spell off makes them near worthless in a dangerous situation. But then they generally only last one hour, so the situation has to be safe enough that you can sit and cast for ten minutes, but immediate enough that you can get use out of it in one hour. This would be REALLY irritating to get to work in an actual game.
• Cost. 30 gp for a Silence ritual at level 1 doesn't sound like much . . . until you realise that 50 gp is the price for a suit of plate armour. In fact, 30 gp is more than you're going to get for most quests. This discourages you from using rituals except when you really need them.

So eh. They're better than nothing I guess, but if I want to play character who focuses on utility and out-of-combat magic, 3.5 is far better.

- Saph

[SamTheCleric]

I enjoy the ritual system... and love that a skill check determines the "strength" of most rituals.

[FoE]

I think the point of rituals was to weaken the wizards and clerics in order to bring them on to a level playing field with the martial fighting classes, as well as to make those 'fighting classes' a little more viable on their own by allowing them to cast some of those non-combat spells so you don't HAVE to have a wizard and cleric in every party if you really don't want to.

Also, ritual scrolls and particularly rare casting components make for good treasure. In that light, they're very successful.

@v: Slightly edited to make more sense now.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I think the point of rituals was to weaken the wizards and clerics to bring them on to a level playing field with the martial fighting classes, as well as to make those 'fighting classes' a little more viable on their own, so you don't HAVE to have a wizard and cleric in every party. Also, ritual scrolls and particularly rare casting components make for good treasure. In that light, they're very successful.

Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

I'm taking that ritual.

[Jarlax]

Compared to 3.5's utility spells, 4e's rituals are unimpressive. Trust me, anything you've described can be done better and more entertainingly by a 3.5 caster.

you are absolutely correct. all the spells in the rituals list can indeed be performed by a 3.5 caster better and faster and cheaper. and in most cases this is to the detriment of the game.

spells like scrying and locate object or portals or decern lies are all game breakers for the DM. quickly unraveling a plot or adventure. now instead of a long list of counterspells or countermanuvers the DM needs to worry about to combat these potential hazards against his BBEGs the DM should actually reward the players for using these spells.

in 4e if you use a scrying spell it represents a significant expense on your parties part and should be rewarded with meaningful information they may not have otherwise come across. they will be lucky to perform it once every adventure as most, so it should be an important event. as opposed to 3.5 where scrying is received early and can be used quickly and cheaply.

• Casting time. Having to take 10 minutes to get the spell off makes them near worthless in a dangerous situation. But then they generally only last one hour, so the situation has to be safe enough that you can sit and cast for ten minutes, but immediate enough that you can get use out of it in one hour. This would be REALLY irritating to get to work in an actual game.

most of these spells are not intended for dangerous situations anyway, most are adventure setups or concluders. like scrying, brew potion and enchant magic item or raise dead, cure disease and disenchant magic item.

the few that are for inside the dungeons are spells like knock, detect doors, tesners floating disk or travelers feast. are all spells that replace a mundane power with a magic alternative, the game is simply protecting those who have high thievery, high perception, high strength or selected languages by ensuring their magical replacements are less efficient but still available. you will always prefer the rouge to a knock spell, but in a pinch you can take 10 minutes and get the wizard to open it.

This discourages you from using rituals except when you really need them.

BAM! nail-on-the-head, rituals are not mere utilities for your players to use as they like, when they like. they represent a serious investment of time and money in order to be performed and are intended to be used only when you really need them.

[Illiterate Scribe]

And meanwhile, we hit things for 2d6+Int damage! Hooray!

[Saph]

spells like scrying and locate object or portals or decern lies are all game breakers for the DM. quickly unraveling a plot or adventure.

Really, they're not. I could go down the list of each of those spells and explain the limitations (have you ever actually had a session ruined by one of these?) but I'll avoid thread derailment.

BAM! nail-on-the-head, rituals are not mere utilities for your players to use as they like, when they like. they represent a serious investment of time and money in order to be performed and are intended to be used only when you really need them.

Unfortunately, for me, the whole fun of playing a fantasy game is to be able to do impossible stuff when I feel like it, rather than when I really need it. Paying for a teleport that only works between two specific locations feels rather like paying for an airline ticket.

- Saph

[Jarlax]

Really, they're not. I could go down the list of each of those spells and explain the limitations (have you ever actually had a session ruined by one of these?) but I'll avoid thread derailment.

wizard scryed my BBEG litch, flawlessly teleported the entire party into his room and proceeded to derail the adventure by holding him hostage having another party member command undead. this is not the only example just the quickest to explain.

Unfortunately, for me, the whole fun of playing a fantasy game is to be able to do impossible stuff when I feel like it, rather than when I really need it. Paying for a teleport that only works between two specific locations feels rather like paying for an airline ticket.

- Saph

thats fine you can do impossible stuff all the time, launch fire from your hands, take to the sky without wings, or make your self invisible to sight on a daily basis. these are all utility spells for a wizard in 4e. but the BIG stuff, the stuff that can radically change an adventure, like the ability to spy on any creature even if you have never seen or met them before, the ability to ask mystic power any question and be given a truthful and accurate response or the ability to teleport to a destination with a description as simple as "lord Bloodrinkers personal chambers" having never been there before.

these sorts of spells have been put aside to protect both the DM and the other players alike. spells like knock and detect secret doors takes away from the rouges traditional role(in 3.5 there comes a point where the rouge is better off spending his ranks in open lock on UMD and just buying a knock wand since open lock is a full round action and using a wand is a standard). comprehend languages makes learning anything other than common a farce, what point is there if the wizard can just pop CL when he likes. one of our players read the new scrying and teleport rituals out loud to a short cheer as they named the players most prone to abusing the hell out of those spells.

[Emperor Tippy]

wizard scryed my BBEG litch, flawlessly teleported the entire party into his room and proceeded to derail the adventure by holding him hostage having another party member command undead. this is not the only example just the quickest to explain.

Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

[LoneGamer]

How did the Lich fail a saving throw against a level 2 spell requiring a Will save? Natural 1? Also, from SRD, you can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Command and Dominate spells are not guaranteed do-as-I-say buttons.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

A cursory glance over the 4e rules actually seems to suggest that you would two feats if rituals isn't something your class usually does. Fighters don't get Religion, Heal or Arcana as trained skills; if memory serves.

So you'd need the feat that lets you train in the skill and the Ritual Caster feat to boot.

So you're burning two feats to use a limited selection of rituals which have no immediate use in combat.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

A cursory glance over the 4e rules actually seems to suggest that you would two feats if rituals isn't something your class usually does. Fighters don't get Religion, Heal or Arcana as trained skills; if memory serves.

So you'd need the feat that lets you train in the skill and the Ritual Caster feat to boot.

So you're burning two feats to use a limited selection of rituals which have no immediate use in combat.

[Izodor]

I still need to buy 4e, will propably do so within a few weeks, but could one of you answer this question?

Do you need to buy a ritual over and over again, just like 3.5 scrolls, when you want to cast them more than once?

[LurkerInPlayground]

I still need to buy 4e, will propably do so within a few weeks, but could one of you answer this question?

Do you need to buy a ritual over and over again, just like 3.5 scrolls, when you want to cast them more than once?

I've browsed the book in a store if that's enough qualification.

You still have to "master" them by studying them for 8 hours. Afterwards, you can use them as frequently as time and component cost will permit. You also still need your reference to the ritual from a ritual book or spellbook.

Typically you'll find rituals as treasure or buy them. Although the book makes it painstakingly clear that the market for these things tends to be limited.

Unless I'm mistaken, there are ritual scrolls, which are essentially prepaid one-shot rituals which you can use without having "mastered" the ritual. Much like the scrolls from the 3rd editions.

[HidaTsuzua]

Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

Because the GM forgot that spell. Or he's a cleric. Basically the problem with scry, detect X, speak with dead and the rest isn't that they can't be countered. The problem is that if they're not, it's over.

All murderers have to be unknown to their murderees, all bodies have to be disposed of on death (since kill him for the password is a valid tactic), if you're worth caring about you have to have mindblank up, everything is lined with lead, and lying . If you slip up once and the PCs catch it, everything goes to heck.

And if you do, things get predictable (of course the dead man never saw his assailant and everyone pays out for mindblank). I've done games like that. My shadowrun games are usually extremely planning heavy and planning takes longer than the actual run.

Let's say you're a new GM. There's little chance you know all of these effects and all it takes is one player (either because he's not new or discovery) to say "GOTCHA!" and the plot is ruined. A newbie GM shouldn't have to know that dead men can tell tales to avoid his plot messed up or solved trivially. At the very best, it makes for a horrible first impression.

Take a look at the OOTS comic. If that one city didn't have "magical evidence doesn't count" law, that whole plot with Elan and Nale switching placed would have been over in 5 minutes. And that law is bull****, but had to be there.

That said, 4E rituals don't solve this problem. Those problem spells are still there. They just cost more and are even worse. Consult Oracle will tell you something know to at least one creature, observe McEvil the Lich's phylactery or the "Pants that the BBEG is wearing" or whatever, and speak with dead can now be spammed. You can protect yourself with anti-scry wards, but they get a refund on their scry attempts. And doesn't help with the Consult X line.

Scry and Die is still around it's just now pricey to do and combat and higher level. That's an improvement, but nowhere close it could be. Consult and Die might work though.

Really, the 4E recommendation of "if a ritual is going to blow your plot, BS it for the sake of the plot" isn't that bad of a way to fix the mess. And that's terrible.

[Emperor Tippy]

Because the GM forgot that spell. Or he's a cleric. Basically the problem with scry, detect X, speak with dead and the rest isn't that they can't be countered. The problem is that if they're not, it's over.

Why is that a problem? Most every RPG and even real life is like that. Hell, in real life its even worse.

All murderers have to be unknown to their murderees, all bodies have to be disposed of on death (since kill him for the password is a valid tactic), if you're worth caring about you have to have mindblank up, everything is lined with lead, and lying. If you slip up once and the PCs catch it, everything goes to heck.

Yeah, similar precautions have to be taken in Shadowrun and in real life. Again, so what?

And if you do, things get predictable (of course the dead man never saw his assailant and everyone pays out for mindblank). I've done games like that. My shadowrun games are usually extremely planning heavy and planning takes longer than the actual run.

Let's say you're a new GM. There's little chance you know all of these effects and all it takes is one player (either because he's not new or discovery) to say "GOTCHA!" and the plot is ruined. A newbie GM shouldn't have to know that dead men can tell tales to avoid his plot messed up or solved trivially. At the very best, it makes for a horrible first impression.

Meh. Before you ever DM you should look through the rules. If you do so then you will notice those spells. If you don't realize what Speak With Dead does and the players use it to find out the murdered then its your fault and you should learn your lesson.

Take a look at the OOTS comic. If that one city didn't have "magical evidence doesn't count" law, that whole plot with Elan and Nale switching placed would have been over in 5 minutes. And that law is bull****, but had to be there.

Actually its not BS. It's too easy for the person using magic to collect evidence to lie or be influenced.

[Jarlax]

Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

the litch did not have 8th level spells at his disposal, due to his +CR impacting his number of wizard levels. and i thought him safe with only his name available as information and the location of his base secret. one bad will save later an i was proven wrong.

but its a pain, trying to outsmart my players actions before they do them. and make an active effort to protect major elements of my games from player incursion via spells that actively allow them to get knowledge from nothing. are they going to cast scry/CoP/Teleport on my BBEG? or his servant?, the servants wife to get at the servant? etc. what counterspells(mindblank, sacntuary, etc) do i need up? on who? how do i justify those spells in a setting or thematic adventure where wizards and casters are not going to appear? i DM mostly so at some point i have to accept my players who run a wizard every week are much better at their class than i am and anything short of a halasters teleport/scrying cage faces potential failure.

you might remember the wizard vs wizard challenge on the forums we had a while back where we tried to see if one wizard could track down another if one was actively seeking and the other was actively hiding and how i went for (too)many pages of discussion about what spells(drawn from any 3.5 book) countered what and what loopholes may be exploited, etc.

to clarify what im saying, its not that i dislike the spells like scry/teleport/CoP/wish, i just dislike their endless potential having endless usage in 3.5. and i feel their significant component cost in 4e balances this. wish of course has an XP cost in 3.5 but xp costs have been scrapped for obvious reasons. but in 4e if my party wants to burn their treasure on finding the BBEG then they can go for it, they will quickly conclude that spending 530,000g it costs to perform a Observe+TruePortal combo is far less than what they will get from the adventure treasure.

but in a pinch, with no other clues or leads to guide them to a boss or location or if they are facing something with a high chance of a TPK they might be willing to part with the gold required to use those spells, because the really need to. and i am fine with that

[Emperor Tippy]

the litch did not have 8th level spells at his disposal, due to his +CR impacting his number of wizard levels. and i thought him safe with only his name available as information and the location of his base secret. one bad will save later an i was proven wrong.

Private Sanctum, its easy to get it permanent and for free. And there is an item of continuous Mind Blank in the SRD.

Hell, make up a god of adventuring who actively interferes with scrying and other spells because he doesn't think they are appropriate (it's something that I have done before). Or perhaps an epic mage got tired of all the scrying and made an epic spell that blocks scrying.

[HidaTsuzua]

Yes Tippy, it's true real life is bad. But you know what? You don't go on adventures D&D style in real life, the BBEGs are completely different in style and substance, and PR matters. Crimes are often easily solved or impossible (both not good for RPGs).

You can plan a lot like I do with Shadowrun. It however leads to a certain style of play and easily leads to "the only winning move is not to shadowrun but go steal cars for a living." But really that game becomes "can the players outsmart the GM." I shouldn't need to be able to outsmart four of my friends every week for a decent game.

As for the magic evidence not working is BS, I bring up the point. The cops can lie and be influenced. The judge could lie and be influence. Physical evidence can be manipulated or even affected by magic! Magic evidence is as hard or harder to manipulate or influence. Magical evidence is verifiable. Bob the 3rd level cleric of Pelor should be an expert witness at the very least.

I'll grant that "okay detect lies and let's go home" isn't great justice (at least not in a constitutional law sort of way), but it and other spells are highly useful tools. If you throw them out, you'll have to throw out nearly everything else too for the same reasons.

And you yourself offered the suggestion of "that doesn't work for some reason." It's honestly a good solution for the problem, but still sucks. It's amputating the limb to prevent the infection.

[Enlong]

Sorry. It was past midnight when I wrote that. Please pardon my hyperbole.

My hyperbole.

Hyperbole.



But seriously, I shouldn't have written it like that. I do not think they have all the important utilitarian spells, nor do I think the implementation is always perfect (10-minute casting time for Arcane Lock, for example). But in general, I think that the implementation of Rituals is good, and I like the way it feels now.

[TomTheRat]

And meanwhile, we hit things for 2d6+Int damage! Hooray!

What the heck does that even mean? Was that supposed to be a point?

[Morty]

What the heck does that even mean? Was that supposed to be a point?

I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

[Saph]

thats fine you can do impossible stuff all the time, launch fire from your hands, take to the sky without wings, or make your self invisible to sight on a daily basis. these are all utility spells for a wizard in 4e. but the BIG stuff, the stuff that can radically change an adventure, like the ability to spy on any creature even if you have never seen or met them before, the ability to ask mystic power any question and be given a truthful and accurate response or the ability to teleport to a destination with a description as simple as "lord Bloodrinkers personal chambers" having never been there before.

these sorts of spells have been put aside to protect both the DM and the other players alike.

I'm afraid this is exactly what I like least about 4e: the "You can't be trusted with anything really powerful" attitude. It was a common response I was getting in the Balance/Versatility thread. The whole reason I play tabletop RPGs is to get away from the incredibly limited list of allowed actions that you get in board and computer games.

Do remember that there are plenty of people out there who have been managing to play 3.5 without every game being instantly ruined by the players having access to powerful spells. I don't mind that some players want spells to be more limited, but I do mind that there's no room for the players that don't.

- Saph

[TomTheRat]

I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

So what? If you take every combat spell from 3.5 and put it on a big list you can point at that list and be like WHAA wizards are only blasters. Doesn't mean you aren't looking at the picture with big 'ol blinders on.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

No, it's worse - most of the time, all characters spend their time blasting stuff for 2d6+attribute + some condition.

So what? If you take every combat spell from 3.5 and put it on a big list you can point at that list and be like WHAA wizards are only blasters. Doesn't mean you aren't looking at the picture with big 'ol blinders on.

OK. Point me out the fascinating, open ended abilities from the wizard list. 'K?