Questions about AD&D

[CaptOfTheHarem]

In memory of Mr. Gygax, my roommates and I decided to play 1st edition AD&D (copyrights 1977-1979) with books loaned from my father. This ballooned into us hosting a D&D room at our local sci-fi convention (CONvergence), with these old school D&D games. We been attempting to play a couple of games and had some major difficulties. Unfortunately I have been having trouble finding/interpreting some of the rules. I will try to list the questions that I have in order of importance.

Where are the rules for casting and moving in combat (they are probably obvious but search is a cross-class for me {sorry 3.5 reference}) ?

Do characters get attack modifiers? And if so where do I find them?

How does one do grappling?

What is the recommended level for an interesting single adventure?

Are there rules for making higher level characters (starting gold and the ilk)?

Where is the wandering monster table (I swear I have negative ranks in search)?

Can magic items increase strength over the maximum strength for each race?

Is there a character sheet in the PHB, DMG, or MM? (not too big of an issue as I created my own, but helpful to have)

Any aid in my foolish venture would be most appreciated.

[Charity]

In before Matt Woooo


ahem


Where are the rules for casting and moving in combat?
OK you can move and attack in your turn, there are no restrictions on casting in the heat of combat.

Do characters get attack modifiers? And if so where do I find them?
Each character class has its own to hit table found in the DMG... near the middle somewhere.

How does one do grappling? ... can't remember Matt'll be along in a mo... think there are some % die involved somewhere.

What is the recommended level for an interesting single adventure?
I would advise 5-7th others have different opinions I'm sure.

Are there rules for making higher level characters (starting gold and the ilk)?
Nope, don't go overboard though... for 5-7th I'd go for about 3-4 low powered items each.

Where is the wandering monster table?
I think there are loads (terrain dependant) in the DMG, also most published adventures have their own, and if the worst come to the worst there is a whole load of tables by level in the roll your own dungeon section... Oh and don't worry about the search thing, the AD&D DMG is notoriously difficult to find stuff in.

Can magic items increase strength over the maximum strength for each race?
Oh yes, girdles of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power will do this (no girdles for a level 5-7 party I wouldn't have thought)

Is there a character sheet in the PHB, DMG, or MM?
Honestly I can't remember, but they are widely available online a simple google search will give you a few options I'm sure.

[Premier]

Hey, always happy to help out a fellow AD&D-er. First of all, do check out the Dragonsfoot website if you haven't done so already - lots of freely downloadable materials and a pretty big set of forums. You might also want to check out the Knights and Knaves Aleshouse and some other places. Anyway, on to your questions.

Where are the rules for casting and moving in combat (they are probably obvious but search is a cross-class for me {sorry 3.5 reference}) ?

Check out Page 102 in the PHB. Also see the Melee Combat paragraph starting at the bottom of page 104, and First Strike on the following page. The DMG has a separate section on spellcasting in combat, starting on page 65. However, do see the bottom of this post.

Do characters get attack modifiers? And if so where do I find them?

Well, you probably know by now that the basic attack procedure is to roll d20, add/subtract modifiers, and look up the result on the tables starting on page 74 in the DMG. So, for instance, you're a 6th level Fighter attacking a creature with an AC of 3. You look at table 1.B., find the column for 5-6th level attackers (that's you), and find the line for AC 3 opponents. The number where the two intersect is 13, so your modified roll needs to be 13 or higher.

But your question is specifically about modifiers. Well, you get modifiers for high Strength and Dexterity - check out the relevant tables (and their explanations) in the Character Abilities chapter of the PHB. There are also situational modifiers scattered around the Combat chapters of the PHB and the DMG; again, see end of this post for an important note.

How does one do grappling?

You're looking for "Non-lethal and weaponless combat procedures" starting on page 72 of the DMG. The Unearthed Arcana contains additional rules in this field.

What is the recommended level for an interesting single adventure?

I would suggest something low. The way I see it, one of the greatest advantages of the old editions over the new ones is that they expect the players to actually think their way through situations as opposed to just automatically use the appropriate feats and skills - and the lower the level, the more this kind of gameplay is encouraged. If you can only take 2 or 3 hits before going down, you WILL need to set up a barricade from assorted pieces of dungeon furniture, you WILL need to orchestrate a cunning ambush, and you WILL need to think outside the box. You'll be playing to the edition's forte.

Are there rules for making higher level characters (starting gold and the ilk)?

Not really, just go with what the DM feels right. Again, see bottom of this post.

Where is the wandering monster table (I swear I have negative ranks in search)?

As pointed out already, adventure modules usually have their own tables. For a kind of "standard" table, you can look at Appendix C, starting on page 174 of the DMG. You can also find similar tables in the backs of the Fiend Folio and the Monster Manual II, if you have those books.

Can magic items increase strength over the maximum strength for each race?

Someone already mentioned the Girdle and Gauntlets, which increase the strength while worn. There are also certain books which can be read - and the excercised therein practiced - to increase one of the character's ability scores, like the Manual of Bodily Health and others. These do not explicitly state whether you can use them to push your ability score beyond what's normally the limit for your race, so the DM would need to make a judgement on that.

Is there a character sheet in the PHB, DMG, or MM? (not too big of an issue as I created my own, but helpful to have)

If there's one in there, I've never found it. :)


Final note to which I've referred several times above:

The main thing you need to keep in mind - and that cannot be emphasized enough - is that old editions have a rather different philosophy regarding the Dungeon Master's role in the game. Namely, it is assumed that the DM is willing and able to take initiative and make his own ruling - both in situation that the books don't cover, and also going directly against the written rules sometimes.
The books deliberately neglect to discuss things that they could, on the assumption that the DM will handle the matter on his own. For instance, I don't think that either the PHB or the DMG would explicitly state that you gain some modifier (say, +1 or +2) to your attack roll when fighting from higher ground, like on a long staircase, or that an enemy standing on a slippery surface and rolling a 1 on his attack roll would need to make a saving throw versus, say, paralysis, or fall down. However, it's assumed that such ideas will occur to the DM, and that if he finds them reasonable, then he'll include them in the game with no specific "permission" from Gary Gygax. Even though you DO actually have specific permission from Gary. Open your DMG to page 230 and read the paragraph set in all capital letters, right above the bashful succubus.

And the advice above includes the matter of simplification. Ultimately, everything in the book is optional in your game. If you don't want to use the Weapon types vs. armour table, don't use it - that one's actiually marked optional. If you think that the rules for movement in combat, or initiative, or casting times bog down your game, just simplify them to your heart's content.

[Matthew]

In before Matt Woooo

Damn it!

Hi CaptOfTheHarem; may I suggest that you consider downloading the following fast play module and rules for OSRIC: Orcs' Nest. (You can discover why here).

Welcome to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons!

1) Characters cannot move and cast spells at the same time (DMG, p. 65). If the spell goes off with segments to spare, the DM might allow the spell caster to use the remaining segments to move, but that may open a pandoras box ("Hey, my magic user has nine segments left, can't he just cast another spell?").

2) Characters get better at attacking as they advance in level. The Combat Tables on p. 74 of the DMG show how this works by level and class. The attribute tables show how high strength and dexterity affect the attack roll. Many other things can also modify it, especially magic.

3) Grappling is handled using a lot of math on pp. 72-3 of the DMG. Unearthed Arcana has a much simpler system.

4) Most published adventures fall into levels 1-12. A large number fall into the 5-7 range. The above linked fast play module is for level one, and should provide an interesting adventure. A lot of it is preference, though. I rarely play above level 6.

5) No, there are no recommended wealth levels; it's completely preferential as to how much magic is appropriate for a level X character. There are example characters littered around, but the amount of wealth and equipment they have varies by individual and not by level.

6) There are some wandering monster tables in the Monster Manual, I think. However, most adventures have their own tables to reflect the locale.

7) They can, but generally not permanently. Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Girdles of Giant Strength give a character a certain strength score whilst worn, but the various Tomes and Wishes are usually thought to be not capable of pushing scores above racial maximums with an explicit DM 'okay'. I wouldn't allow it myself.

8) Nope, but you can find loads here: Mad Irish Man

As Premier says, you should definitely check out Dragonsfoot and perhaps also Knights & Knaves. The former contains a wealth of fan made AD&D material and a well populated forum. The latter is a smaller scale affair, but much more focused (and also the home of the OSRIC project).

[nagora]

Do characters get attack modifiers? And if so where do I find them?

The combat tables are at p74 of the DMG. You might find my re-wording of combat useful.

How does one do grappling?

If you want to do grappling, the easier system is in Unearth Arcana. If you don't have that I think it's $4 as a download from Druvethru and other sites. There is a complex syste in the DMG starting at p72.

What is the recommended level for an interesting single adventure?

I'd say for a 1-off that 3rd to 5th is a good balance of survivability and risk. If the players are used to 3ed then you'll want to boost their levels as they're probably used to a much easier style of play and will need those extra hit points.

Are there rules for making higher level characters (starting gold and the ilk)?

You could look at DMg p175 where it discusses randmonly enountered parties. But you're better off just being miserly and handing out some characters with normal equipment and maybe a +1 sword or shield here or there. Higher level the starting adventure, the more generous you can be, but again AD&D is not as "giveaway" as 3ed so err on the side of caution.

Where is the wandering monster table (I swear I have negative ranks in search)?

p174+ DMG. Also see p47 for when to check duing overland adventures. For dungeons check every 30 or 60 minutes depending on how you feel for that particular area, and after any noisy activity by the players.

If you're doing your own wandering monster table, which is a good idea, then make most of the monsters on it ones that you've placed in the area and which might be out and about. If the PCs kill them on a random encounter then they will not be encountered later and if they are rolled again then nothing is encountered (ie, don't re-roll). Things like giant rats and carrion crawlers can be purely random and turn up as often as desired.

Can magic items increase strength over the maximum strength for each race?

Yes, but don't. Again, resist the temptation to make 3ed characters in 1ed.

Is there a character sheet in the PHB, DMG, or MM? (not too big of an issue as I created my own, but helpful to have)

No, but there's lots of sheets to choose from over at www.dragonsfoot.org.

Any aid in my foolish venture would be most appreciated.

Make it seem real. If the players are doing well but making a lot of noise, the other denizens of a dungeon will form more organised resistance or perhaps flee or even surrender.

If a player wants to climb a tree and there's no reason why not, then let them; don't bother rolling for every action.

All spell casting starts just prior to the start of segment 1 and ends on the segment of the casting length (ie, fireball comes on segment 3; magic missile on segment 1). If two spells are due on the same segment then the higher initiative caster goes first, possibly disrupting the other spell. If both casters had the same casting time and the same initiative then the spells are simultaneous.

Any damage suffered by a magic user before a spell is complete ruins and wastes the spell - no save. This is one big reason why 1ed magic users are not the insane unstoppable war engines that 3ed ones are.

Attackers without weapons will strike at a magic user on the segment indicated by the magic user's initiative die, those with weapons have a more complex system explained on p66 of the DMG which favours faster weapons over slower.

You may or may not find my PDF on initiative useful (it does assume that you've some experience with AD&D so it might not help a newbie; I've been thinking of re-writing it, but the checklist of steps should be a handy guide anyway).

[Talya]

The main thing you need to keep in mind - and that cannot be emphasized enough - is that old editions have a rather different philosophy regarding the Dungeon Master's role in the game. Namely, it is assumed that the DM is willing and able to take initiative and make his own ruling - both in situation that the books don't cover, and also going directly against the written rules sometimes.
The books deliberately neglect to discuss things that they could, on the assumption that the DM will handle the matter on his own. For instance, I don't think that either the PHB or the DMG would explicitly state that you gain some modifier (say, +1 or +2) to your attack roll when fighting from higher ground, like on a long staircase, or that an enemy standing on a slippery surface and rolling a 1 on his attack roll would need to make a saving throw versus, say, paralysis, or fall down. However, it's assumed that such ideas will occur to the DM, and that if he finds them reasonable, then he'll include them in the game with no specific "permission" from Gary Gygax. Even though you DO actually have specific permission from Gary. Open your DMG to page 230 and read the paragraph set in all capital letters, right above the bashful succubus.

And the advice above includes the matter of simplification. Ultimately, everything in the book is optional in your game. If you don't want to use the Weapon types vs. armour table, don't use it - that one's actiually marked optional. If you think that the rules for movement in combat, or initiative, or casting times bog down your game, just simplify them to your heart's content.

Huh. I'd have sworn that the paragraphs above were also the rule and spirit intended for 2e and 3.x.

[Cainen]

Huh. I'd have sworn that the paragraphs above were also the rule and spirit intended for 2e and 3.x.

Please don't turn a nice thread into something else.

My advice - be ready to wing it. The non-advice: hope the GM is good enough to wing it with you.

[Matthew]

p174+ DMG. Also see p47 for when to check duing overland adventures. For dungeons check every 30 or 60 minutes depending on how you feel for that particular area, and after any noisy activity by the players.

I knew I had seen those tables somewhere. I must have been hit with selective blindness.

All spell casting starts just prior to the start of segment 1 and ends on the segment of the casting length (ie, fireball comes on segment 3; magic missile on segment 1). If two spells are due on the same segment then the higher initiative caster goes first, possibly disrupting the other spell. If both casters had the same casting time and the same initiative then the spells are simultaneous.

Uh, oh, initiative debate.

[nagora]

Uh, oh, initiative debate.

Zer is no "debate"!

[hamlet]

Zer is no "debate"!

Und zat iz because 2nd edition fixed ze problem!

[Oeryn]

Nagora, I'm gettin' a "Not Found" error on the link to your Initiative PDF.

[nagora]

Nagora, I'm gettin' a "Not Found" error on the link to your Initiative PDF.

Fixed in original post but here it is again:

http://www.tww.cx/downloads/btbinitiative.pdf

Left the "downloads" part off

The boards are veeeeerry sllllooooowww tooooniiiggghhtt.

[CaptOfTheHarem]

Thank you people so much for your help! You answered the questions that I had (and a few that I didn't know that I had yet) wonderfully.

[nagora]

Thank you people so much for your help! You answered the questions that I had (and a few that I didn't know that I had yet) wonderfully.

Just one more thing on the move/casting: although you have to stand relatively still while casting, there's no reason you can't run about afterwards. Just so long as you start each round ready to cast, you can do cast-move-cast-move as long as you want.

[Matthew]

Thank you people so much for your help! You answered the questions that I had (and a few that I didn't know that I had yet) wonderfully.

No problem, we like to see AD&D threads here. Consider bookmarking this one, so you can repost to it if you have any further questions.

Just one more thing on the move/casting: although you have to stand relatively still while casting, there's no reason you can't run about afterwards. Just so long as you start each round ready to cast, you can do cast-move-cast-move as long as you want.

I agree with this interpretation, but as I said above, it has the potential to open a bit of a Pandora's Box if misunderstood. A players may start to ask questions when the Magic User shoots off a magic missile in segment 1 and then spends 9 segments running about ("Why can't I cast another spell?"). Of course, it makes even less sense for him to cast the spell in segment 1 and then stand around for 54 seconds...

[CaptOfTheHarem]

I request a couple more clarifications as my roommates and were going through the rules today.

Saving throws: is wisdom the only thing that affects them?

PHB pg 38, armor class adjustments. For these I am trying to figure out which way applies, for example a bastard sword against an AC 4 has +1 listed, does this mean that after I roll the d20 and add strength and dexterity that I add another +1 to the roll, or does it mean that the AC is considered +1? Or am I completely misinterpreting what to do with that +1?

More questions as I encounter them.

[THAC0]

I request a couple more clarifications as my roommates and were going through the rules today.

Saving throws: is wisdom the only thing that affects them?

PHB pg 38, armor class adjustments. For these I am trying to figure out which way applies, for example a bastard sword against an AC 4 has +1 listed, does this mean that after I roll the d20 and add strength and dexterity that I add another +1 to the roll, or does it mean that the AC is considered +1? Or am I completely misinterpreting what to do with that +1?

More questions as I encounter them.

Forgive me for not having my books readily accessible.

I believe there are a few other things that can affect saving throws - magic armor comes to mind, for certain saves. Wisdom only affects some saving throws as well, not all.

Yes. d20+str/dex mod+1

[Matthew]

I request a couple more clarifications as my roommates and were going through the rules today.

Saving throws: is wisdom the only thing that affects them?

As THAC0 says, dexterity can affect saving throws, as per the example in the PHB on p. 11. Basically, there are few hard and fast rules for this. If it seems like a modifier should be applied, apply it. THAC0 is also correct that magic armour and shields improve saving throws

PHB pg 38, armor class adjustments. For these I am trying to figure out which way applies, for example a bastard sword against an AC 4 has +1 listed, does this mean that after I roll the d20 and add strength and dexterity that I add another +1 to the roll, or does it mean that the AC is considered +1? Or am I completely misinterpreting what to do with that +1?

You are doing it exactly correct in the first instance [i.e. you add it to your roll] (but be sure to only add dexterity adjustments to ranged attacks). You'll notice that most two handed weapons have overall bonuses, whilst one handed weapons are good against one type and poor against others. The Footman's Flail has insanely good modifiers, which has led many people to conclude that it is a two handed weapon.

A good rule of thumb, if you don't want to use the weapon versus armour modifiers (and a lot of people don't, but many others consider them a necessary part of the game), is to give two handed weapons a blanket +1 to hit.

[Siosilvar]

Speaking of AD&D (completely off topic, but still...), my friend was making a thief/MU (with my help). Here is a sentence I typed to him:

Poif! You are now unknow Magic Missile, but know all of the ones you check already except Magic Missil!

Epic fail.

Yes, that is a case of DM fudge where he could NOT roll below a 55 on percentile dice to learn a spell.

I hate those rules for the M-U spells and learning and such... Still a good system though.

It seems like all of your questions have been answered already, so I'll leave now.

[THAC0]

I hate those rules for the M-U spells and learning and such... Still a good system though.

I like it because it forces you to pursue other options. No two mages the same! :)

[nagora]

Speaking of AD&D (completely off topic, but still...), my friend was making a thief/MU (with my help). Here is a sentence I typed to him:

Epic fail.

Yes, that is a case of DM fudge where he could NOT roll below a 55 on percentile dice to learn a spell.

I'm not sure what that last bit means, but I had a friend (no, really) who's magic user could not understand the fireball spell. He found lots of interesting other things to do that he probably never wouldhave bothered with.

It's important to shake the players up from time to time.

[Charity]

Failing on sleep, charm, magic missile, and colour spray (or was that illusionist only?) did suck at first level however. We used to allow on re-roll for any starting Magicuser as it was quite a blow to miss out on a decent spell for your 1 a day.

[nagora]

Failing on sleep, charm, magic missile, and colour spray (or was that illusionist only?) did suck at first level however. We used to allow on re-roll for any starting Magicuser as it was quite a blow to miss out on a decent spell for your 1 a day.

Actually, I don't think you were supposed to roll for understanding of the starting spells, just as you didn't roll for read magic

Colour spray is an illusionist spell.

[hamlet]

Actually, I don't think you were supposed to roll for understanding of the starting spells, just as you didn't roll for read magic

Colour spray is an illusionist spell.

The 1e rules on that were a little . . . conflicted. On the one hand, there was a rule that said that they only got those few spells that the DM deigned to hand over.

On the other, under the intelligence charts I believe, it was stated that the MU should roll percentile for every spell of that level and he gained those he got all those he succeeded in learning.

[Matthew]

The 1e rules on that were a little . . . conflicted. On the one hand, there was a rule that said that they only got those few spells that the DM deigned to hand over.

On the other, under the intelligence charts I believe, it was stated that the MU should roll percentile for every spell of that level and he gained those he got all those he succeeded in learning.

As I understand it, you roll in advance to determine which spells your Magic User will be able to learn. The, from those he is able to learn, the DM selects a number for the player character to start with.

[hamlet]

As I understand it, you roll in advance to determine which spells your Magic User will be able to learn. The, from those he is able to learn, the DM selects a number for the player character to start with.

Which is how I interpreted it, but not how it is explicitely written.

I've always preferred 2nd edition's magic chapters as far clearer. Plus, they introduced magic specialization, which is always great fun.

[Matthew]

Which is how I interpreted it, but not how it is explicitely written.

I've always preferred 2nd edition's magic chapters as far clearer. Plus, they introduced magic specialization, which is always great fun.

I don't know, I am fine with the 2e method, but the 1e method seems pretty clear to me.

Each and every magic-user character must employ the Table in order to determine which and how many of each group of spells (by level) he or she can learn. At first, only the 1st level group of spells are checked. Successive level groups are checked only when the character reaches a level at which the appropriate group of spells is usable by him or her.

Chance to Know Each Listed Spell pertains to the percentage chance the character has by reason of his or her intelligence to learn any given spell in the level group. The character may select spells desired in any order he or she wishes. Each spell may be checked only once. Percentile dice are rolled, and if the number generated is equal to or less than the percentage chance shown, then the character can learn and thus know that spell (it may be in his or her spell books - explained hereafter).

Example: A character with an intelligence of 12 desires to know a charm person spell that he finds in a book or scroll, percentile dice are rolled, but the number generated is 52, so that spell is not understood and can not be used by the character (see, however, the paragraph below regarding the minimum number of spells knowable).

It's a bit byzantine, but it makes sense in its context.

[hamlet]

I don't know, I am fine with the 2e method, but the 1e method seems pretty clear to me.


It's a bit byzantine, but it makes sense in its context.

Oh yes, it does make sense in context, which is why most people understand it the same way eventually.

And far be it from me to rag on byzantine language (personally, I LOVE it).

However, I just think that the 2nd edition books' magic chapters are simply worded better.

Sometimes Gary got too wrapped up in his writing style to realize that he was becomming more than a little obtuse.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Essentially, once it's in your spellbook you can memorize that spell at any time as long as you have room in your spell-castin' head for it.

The Chance to Learn Spell was basically the chance to add a given spell to your spell book. Generally, once you failed to grasp a spell, it couldn't be added to your book.

That's where Mininum Number of Spells came in. If you rolled through the entire list of spells for a particular level, and you didn't have that Minimum, you could start over and get a second chance with spells you failed to learn.

However, the key to remember is: Once it's in your spellbook, you can memorize normally.

[hamlet]

Essentially, once it's in your spellbook you can memorize that spell at any time as long as you have room in your spell-castin' head for it.

The Chance to Learn Spell was basically the chance to add a given spell to your spell book. Generally, once you failed to grasp a spell, it couldn't be added to your book.

That's where Mininum Number of Spells came in. If you rolled through the entire list of spells for a particular level, and you didn't have that Minimum, you could start over and get a second chance with spells you failed to learn.

However, the key to remember is: Once it's in your spellbook, you can memorize normally.

Preachin' to the choir.