4e RIP Greatsword? And other weapons.

[Zeiss]

Anyone else find the weapon list to be a little sad now? So many weapons were sort of destroyed in the conversion, i feel my choices are much more limited.

[Tengu]

Don't underestimate +1 to hit. In 4e it's a worthwhile bonus.

[kamikasei]

I've heard comments that dual-wielding has been beaten with the nerf-stick (or at least the "unfamiliar and baffling"-stick), but has anyone done a breakdown of weapon styles and how feasible they are / how they compare? I'm thinking two-handed, sword-and-board, x-and-board (can you fight spear-and-shield yet?), dual-wielding, polearms... Though I've not played such a character myself, one of the virtues I've heard attributed to ToB is that many maneuvers give you enough damage to make a longsword and shield a worthwhile combination, and am wondering if 4e carried much of that over.

[Dark Tira]

What's wrong with the greatsword? Seems like it's where it's always been; second fiddle to the falchion.

[Morty]

The way I see it, differences between weapons are just as minor as they were in 3ed, with an exception of certain exploits working only with them. It's just now differences in threat range and multiplier are changed into strong/accurate division.

[Attilargh]

At least the bastard sword doesn't suck utterly anymore, and spear-and-shielding is finally possible.

[AmberVael]

Don't underestimate +1 to hit. In 4e it's a worthwhile bonus.

This is why I'm thinking longswords are going to be one of the best weapons.
You've got +3 to hit, which is good. You deal 1d8 damage- or 1d8+1 if you use it two handed.
Look at the picture here:

Greatsword: +3 to hit, 1d10 damage (with both hands used)
Longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8 damage (in one hand) or 1d8+1 (with both hands).

Average comes out to 5.5 damage on both, with the longsword having a smaller range (which I think is a good thing- less chance to it).
However, a longsword is also more versatile than the greatsword since you can put it in one hand as well as two. It also weighs less.


The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...

[BobTheDog]

*snip* (can you fight spear-and-shield yet?) *snip*

Spear = simple one-handed weapon (+2, 1d8, versatile)

Yes you can.

[Attilargh]

Another benefit is that Power Attack grants a higher damage bonus if used with a two-handed weapon.

[BobTheDog]

This is why I'm thinking longswords are going to be one of the best weapons.
You've got +3 to hit, which is good. You deal 1d8 damage- or 1d8+1 if you use it two handed.
Look at the picture here:

Greatsword: +3 to hit, 1d10 damage (with both hands used)
Longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8 damage (in one hand) or 1d8+1 (with both hands).

Average comes out to 5.5 damage on both, with the longsword having a smaller range (which I think is a good thing- less chance to it).
However, a longsword is also more versatile than the greatsword since you can put it in one hand as well as two. It also weighs less.


The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...

IIRC, the consensus is that the +1 damage from versatile doesn't multiply with x[W] powers. So a 3[W] with a longsword deals 3d8+1, not 3d8+3. A greatsword comes out ahead in that case.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, I'm fairly certain that the +1 to damage for the longsword isn't multiplied like the base die is for powers. So 5[W] for a great sword would average 50 or so, and the longsword 41. So eh, around 10 more damage. Not horrible.

And don't you still get more out of your strength in 4e? Or did they remove that?

[kc0bbq]

The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...

Greatswords do more damage on a critical, more average damage from powers, significantly more on criticals with powers.

Bigger [W] is a big enough deal to make them equivalent in the long run.

[AmberVael]

@Attilargh: I'm no longer sure power attack is worth it at all. Besides, even if it IS something you want to consider- would you rather have an extra +1 damage from using power attack with a greatsword, or an extra +1 or +2 defense from being able to hold a shield? The damage bonus is tiny... AC bonus is the difference between you and death.


@Bob:

Versatile weapons are one-handed, but you can use them two-handed. If you do, you deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for the
weapon.

Damage for the weapon. Weapon damage.... I think that should count for powers, no?

@ kc0bbq:
Wrong. Greatsword does not have the high crit property- it does normal crit damage. It does not have higher average damage than a longsword used in two hands (in fact, it can score lower, giving a higher chance to have a poor roll)

[Attilargh]

Myatar: They removed it.

Vael: "A [W] in a damage expression stands for your weapon’s damage dice."

Also, worth depends on your point of view. After all, you don't need AC if there's no-one to stab you, and one point of damage may be all that stands between you and the enemy's death.

[kc0bbq]

@ kc0bbq:
Wrong. Greatsword does not have the high crit property- it does normal crit damage. It does not have higher average damage than a longsword used in two hands (in fact, it can score lower, giving a higher chance to have a poor roll)

It does more damage on a crit. Longsword does 9, Greatsword does 10. Just from [W] on a [7W] power you go from 57 to 70 damage without other modifiers.

It's significant.

[clericwithnogod]

Weapons have to be judeged based upon more than just chart. Feats, class abilities, powers and paragon paths all add to the overall power of a weapon.

Some weapons will only be optimal for certain characters. Greatsword is inferior to Bastard Sword, but Bastard Sword costs a feat for some characters who may get more benefit than +1 damage from another feat. Greatsword is superior to Longsword if you're wielding with two hands and have powers that multiply [W] as the +1 for using both hands on a versatile weapon isn't multiplied. Power Attack damage is also greater with two hands on a weapon and some powers give a bonus when using a weapon two-handed.

Versatile is nice if you want to use a second weapon or implement or something in your off-hand. Using a shield requires STR if your class doesn't grant the proficiency and equipping or stowing a shield is a standard action, which makes switching between sword/shield and sword two-handed on the fly kind of awkward. Quick draw lets you equip a weapon as part of the attack action and sheathing it is a minor, so going from two-handed bastard sword to bastard sword and dagger works better.

As far as two handed fighting goes, using the same type of weapon in two hands doesn't get you much unless you're a ranger or take ranger multiclassing (maybe a little bonus form a feat or the ability to use different magic weapon powers).

But if you use two different types of weapons in combination with powers that provide benefits to different types of weapons, you can get a good bit from it. If you're a ranger, some (maybe most) two-weapon powers define how a power works as Primary Weapon does X and Off-Hand weapon does Y.

If you're outside the ranger framework, the only thing off-hand weapon really means is it can't be very big. So in that way not being a ranger gives you a little more flexibility in what you do with each weapon even though you can't do something with both weapons at once in most cases (though you could mix weapons and add get enough ranger power to get a little of the ranger's 'hit with both' and the non-ranger 'do something different with either'). Or a Ranger could multiclass and get some powers that let him do something different with one or the other of his weapons, though giving up the ability to pump up dual-wielding bastard swords or scimitar may not be worthwhile to him.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Since Kamikasei asked, here's the rundown:

Simple Weapons suck, no surprise here.

The maul is, pound by pound, the best weapon you can get. Between Hammer Rhythm and the bludgeoning weapon powers, it's the best weapon if you can use your class features with it. It's the fighter's little darling.

The heavy flail follows it. It's basically a worse version of the maul, with an extra trick up the sleeve.

The glaive is another worthwhile weapon, because of the Polearm Gamble.

And now, the shocking thing: ALL of the heavy blades SUCK. With capital letters, because they really, REALLY suck. They don't do as much damage as a maul or heavy flail, their powers are sucky en extreme, and the proficiency bonus is WAY overrated, as CharOp has demonstrated. The ONLY Heavy Blade weapon that is worth it, besides the polearmish Glaive, is the Scimitar (Yes, the falchion sucks. It sucked in 3.5 too), because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.

Axes are meh. They're the second bananas to the bludgeoning weapons and the heavy flail.

And the big surprise: Light blades are possibly the most powerful weapon group, for a fighter, outside of the maul. Why? Storm of Blows, a level 3 encounter power. If all of it's attacks hit, it can do 4W+4 times all of your bonuses, doing one of the highest damages in the game. Appropriately boosted it climbs to a completely obscene 8W+4 times your bonuses, better than even No Mercy. A rapier is thus one of the most dangerous weapons out there.


As for the styles:

X-'N-Board is as always the second fiddle style. Basically, it's a gimp, because doing obscene damage is a bigger incentive for creatures to attack you and thus a better control.

Dual Wielding is brutally powerful in the hands of a ranger. Everyone else will do jack with it, though rogues will want to pick up two weapons to coat in poison.

Single weapon is, as always, a big joke.

And Two handing is the best one, because the two handers have the biggest damage dice.


Also, one last thing: Anyone who argues that a +1 proficiency bonus makes up for smaller damage dice doesn't know what he's talkin' about. Weapon damage dice is much more important, as is a damage bonus. That's the reason Power attack is still one of the most powerful feats. The sole exception to this rule is daggers, and that's if you take the daggermaster path.

[kc0bbq]

SAnd the big surprise: Light blades are possibly the most powerful weapon group, for a fighter, outside of the maul. Why? Storm of Blows, a level 3 encounter power. If all of it's attacks hit, it can do 4W+4 times all of your bonuses, doing one of the highest damages in the game. Appropriately boosted it climbs to a completely obscene 8W+4 times your bonuses, better than even No Mercy. A rapier is thus one of the most dangerous weapons out there.

That's not what Storm of Blows does?

[AmberVael]

Okay, instead of me putting up my arguments here (which never seem to be quite accurate...) let me compile facts for everyone else (which I do seem to be good enough at).
We're going to focus on melee weapons and the fighter class until I get more time.


The max damage multipliers of the Fighter class powers are:
-7[W] (from the daily power No Mercy).
-4[W] (a number of encounter powers).
-2[W] (a number of at Will powers- only after 21st level).

The number of times a Fighter power specifies a specific type of weapon (or shield):

Spear 5
Heavy Blade 4
Light blade 4
Axe 4
Flail 4
Hammer 3
Mace 3
Polearm 3
Pick 3
Shields 3

There are a few weapons that allow +3 proficiency bonus instead of +2.

These weapons are:
Dagger, Longsword, Shortsword, Falchion, Greatsword, Bastard Sword, Katar, Rapier, Spiked Chain.

Highest damage weapons:
Maul or Flail (2d6)
In one handed: Bastard Sword (1d10)


Heroic Feats that improve weapons/shields:

-Blade Opportunist (+2 opportunity attacks with light/heavy blades)
-Combat Reflexes (+1 to opportunity attacks)
-Distracting Shield (Enemy hit with Combat Challenge takes -2 attack. Must have shield equipped).
-Dwarven Weapon Training (+2 damage and proficiency with axes and hammers)
-Eladrin Soldier (+2 damage and proficiency with longswords and spears)
-Nimble Blade (+1 attack if you have a light blade AND combat advantage)
-Power Attack (+2 to damage, or +3 with two handed)
-Powerful Charge (+2 damage on charges)
-Shield Push (push a target one square after using combat challenge)
-Two-Weapon Defense (+1 AC with a weapon in each hand)
-Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 melee damage with a weapon in each hand)
-Weapon Focus (+1 damage with specific weapons)


More to come.

[Jerthanis]

And now, the shocking thing: ALL of the heavy blades SUCK. With capital letters, because they really, REALLY suck. They don't do as much damage as a maul or heavy flail, their powers are sucky en extreme, and the proficiency bonus is WAY overrated, as CharOp has demonstrated. The ONLY Heavy Blade weapon that is worth it, besides the polearmish Glaive, is the Scimitar (Yes, the falchion sucks. It sucked in 3.5 too), because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.

Blade Opportunist with Heavy Blade Opportunity looks pretty good to me, but I'm not the type to break down the mechanics of these things to their mathematical optimums, but it seems like if you take Careful Strike and use it with Heavy Blade Opportunity with a Bastard Sword, you're 5 points ahead of a Maul user in terms of total hit bonus when striking people to keep them from moving away from you. In conjunction with a lot of the Burst 1 fighter powers to mark as many enemies as possible it seems like it's one of the best ways to fulfill your role as a defender.

Then again, I don't really see anything useful to do with them aside from that, so YMMV.

[Azerian Kelimon]

That's not what Storm of Blows does?

CustServ says it does. Two attacks, each granting a secondary attack, hence, 4W+4 times bonuses. Sage is slated to confirm it.

Jerthanis: Careful strike is a trap. You can't apply ANY bonus aside of magic weapon bonus to it, no strength bonus, no weapon focus bonus, no PA bonus. With that, the Mauler pushes ahead. If you want to use Heavy Blade opportunist, you use a glaive and combine it with Polearm Gambit.

[hamishspence]

Rain of Blows level 3, (not Storm of blows, which is level 13) as You make two attacks, and under Weapon says You make a secondary attack( if weapon type fits). so at most 3 times W damage, not 4. They may be errata-ing it, but I don't see where 4 attacks are coming from, cos it just says A secondary attack.

(edit) Can make sense the other way: Weapon keyword is just under Hit keyword, so you must hit with primary attacks, you won't be getting 4W all the time. if you miss with one of the primary attacks, you won't get both secondary attacks, if you miss both primary, you don't get any secondary at all.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Rain of Blows level 3, (not Storm of blows, which is level 13) as You make two attacks, and under Weapon says You make a secondary attack( if weapon type fits). so at most 3 times W damage, not 4. They may be errata-ing it, but I don't see where 4 attacks are coming from, cos it just says A secondary attack.

(edit) Can make sense the other way: Weapon keyword is just under Hit keyword, so you must hit with primary attacks, you won't be getting 4W all the time. if you miss with one of the primary attacks, you won't get both secondary attacks, if you miss both primary, you don't get any secondary at all.

Aaah, it was Rain.

Even so, Rain of blows is still the better power. It has a better chance to hit, it does more damage, and it's the best choice except for hammer users.

[wodan46]

Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

Exactly. As is, it's a power better than even Dragon's Fangs (Which is, with a well built fighter, the most damaging power when both hits land), and good enough to base a whole character around. With a light blade, you can hop into Swordmaster, and then it goes totally crazy, as you can recover the power when you crit, and crescendo sword will give it back, or give you a daily.

Or, if you start at epic level, just be a Kensei/Demigod and kill everything very, very dead.

[Crow]

Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

This sounds very similar to Manticore Shot (Ranger encounter power...higher level...23 I think).

[Azerian Kelimon]

This sounds very similar to Manticore Shot (Ranger encounter power...higher level...23 I think).

Yes, only Rain of Blows is, probably, THE ultimate power for damage dealing purposes, out of completely insane things like Assasin's Point or Three in One Shot.

[Crow]

Three in One Shot didn't strike me as all that great, especially since Manticore Shot is an encounter power, while the former is a daily. MS seems like a much better "value".

I am away from my books. What does Assassin's Point do? Is that a Rogue power, or paragon power?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Three in One Shot didn't strike me as all that great, especially since Manticore Shot is an encounter power, while the former is a daily. MS seems like a much better "value".

I am away from my books. What does Assassin's Point do? Is that a Rogue power, or paragon power?

A rogue power. 7 W + Dex + Str if you're a brutal scoundrel + twice your SA damage, so either an extra 10d6 or 10d8. The level 29 rogue daily.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I just created a simulation comparing a longsword to a battleaxe.

When a fighter with a +4 to hit does a basic attack, they were close to tie (but with the battleaxe doing only slightly better) between AC's 16 and 19. At AC of 20+ the longsword does better. At less then 16 the battleaxe starts getting better.

When you take into account that longswords will hit more often with cleave, you will be able to mark more often, and status effects of powers will take effect more often, those 2 weapons seem quite balanced.