You're all willing to switch systems *now*?

[Pauwel]

4e is coming. It's new, it's different and a lot of people like it. They are, of course, going to play using the new 4e rules now.
This is perfectly understandable.
But why the hell didn't you do this before?

There's been a bunch of other great systems for fantasy and other genres the entire time, yet most people just keep playing DnD even though they aren't even completely satisfied by it.
This puzzled me a while back, and I made a topic asking why people are even playing DnD 3.5 in the first place when so many better systems are out there. I expected to be flamed to death, but oddly enough most people seemed to agree with my points about the downsides to the system. They said that they kept playing DnD because it worked for them and because it's easier to find players that know the system.
Yet when 4e hit's the streets, more than half of the DnD community instantly embraces this new system.

This entire time a crapload of fantastic, stream-lined, awesome role-playing games has been available to you, and the whole while you chose to keep using 3.5 for reasons that are forgotten and fall to the ground the instant a new edition of DnD is released.
Why is this?

[Xuincherguixe]

I'm going to go with Inertia.

[HeirToPendragon]

Other games were not always that interesting or required reading a lot of new rules (where as I could skip most of 4e rules because I knew them already).

Its also much easier to find people for D&D than it is to find people for Generic RPG A

[MeklorIlavator]

Name Recognition has something to do it: even though 4ed is a different system, it has the DnD name. Other systems don't have this, and thus people are reluctant to learn a new system, even though they would have to do it anyway in order to play the new system. People can be intellectually lazy, and this is one way it manifests.

[AKA_Bait]

Marketing.

If company x comes out with a new RPG how many people know it exists? Not many. How many players look at the system and decide to switch? Some of the not many.

If Hasbro comes out with a new game how many people know it exists? Lots and lots. How many players will look at the system and decide to switch? Lots.

[Closet_Skeleton]

No other fantasy game will ever be able to have the variety and support that D&D has. You may claim the GURPS has more variety, but not if you only look at products in the Fantasy genre.

[Tengu]

DND is popular. Most people don't bother with other systems when they can play d20 this and d20 that. It is not a good tendency and I try to fight it, propagating other, more interesting systems whenever there's a good opportunity to do so, but it doesn't change the fact that most people will settle for the first thing you stick underneath their noses.

Although 4e finally does well what DND aspired to do for all these years and failed, as other games were better at it - represent heroic high fantasy settings.

[kamikasei]

Inertia.

Brand recognition. D&D is the dominant game. The new version of it will also very likely be as dominant. Thus, arguments that learning 3.5 gave you the best chance of finding others to game with will carry over to 4e.

Niche. There are lots of other fantasy games, but many differ significantly in "feel" from what people used to D&D are after.

Familiarity. The transition from 3.5 to 4e doesn't strike me as nearly so large as that from, say, 3.5 to Exalted.

Many of the same sorts of reasons that people who aren't entirely satisfied by the features of Software X will switch to Software X 2.0 much more readily than to Competing Software Y.

[Vortling]

What do you mean by "switch"? I run and play several different RPGs depending on what type of game I'm running or what's available to play. I don't have a primary game system to "switch". I will still be running and hopefully playing 3.5 even now with 4e out.

To answer your question in one word: Marketing.

I do encourage everyone who likes 4e to check out systems like Savage Worlds and Prose Descriptive Qualities (PDQ) as they cover a lot of the same goals that 4e does.

[turkishproverb]

Because my Hackmaster books never arrived in the mail?

[Xuincherguixe]

Now that I think about it, a lot of people HAVE switched. Or at the very least, picked up additional games.

[Green Bean]

Its also much easier to find people for D&D than it is to find people for Generic RPG A

Exactly. And since DnD is one of the few systems that's known in the mainstream, it's essentially the system new RPG players start with. And honestly, if I have a choice between switching to a well made, dynamic system with hardly any players, or sticking with a system that's "merely" very good, but has a much wider player base, I'll go with the one I know I'll be able to use.

[Pauwel]

What do you mean by "switch"? I run and play several different RPGs depending on what type of game I'm running or what's available to play. I don't have a primary game system to "switch". I will still be running and hopefully playing 3.5 even now with 4e out.

I do the same. As I've understood it, though, most groups do tend to use only one system.

[Matthew]

Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

Honestly, there are that many 'fantasy heart breakers' out there because people only think they know what they and other people want. Successful games are the ones that really give people what they want, and those are recognisable because they are successful (horrible logic loop, I know).

To be clear, I am not saying brand recognition and advertising play no part, far from it, in fact I am saying that those things are also what people want.

[Skyserpent]

I'm guessing it has something to do with the ever infamous name "Dungeons & Dragons", the iconic... ness... of the name seems to be what keeps it going

I'm just as big a fan of Green Ronin and White Wolf, to be honest, but nothing can quite get the same feel as good ol' D&D... You know, the classic, "Level X something-or-other with a +[number] sword of [effect]"

[Dan_Hemmens]

Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

I can't speak for the OP, but off the top of my head, there's Runequest, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel, Ars Magica, Tunnels and Trolls, MERP, Shadow of Yesterday, Dying Earth, and of course OD&D, D&D, and AD&D.

Now I quite agree with you that none of these games are actually *better* than D20 in an absolute sense. Dying Earth models Vance better, Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel have more realistic combat, OD&D had less power inflation, but those are all specific matters of taste.

I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.

[Matthew]

I can't speak for the OP, but off the top of my head, there's Runequest, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel, Ars Magica, Tunnels and Trolls, MERP, Shadow of Yesterday, Dying Earth, and of course OD&D, D&D, and AD&D.

Now I quite agree with you that none of these games are actually *better* than D20 in an absolute sense. Dying Earth models Vance better, Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel have more realistic combat, OD&D had less power inflation, but those are all specific matters of taste.

Indeed, so the question becomes what do these games offer that D20 doesn't? You've noted a few possibilities above, and I agree, so then there are at least three possibilities:

1) People are ignorant of the greatness of these games (true for some people)

2) These games are unavailable (true for some people)

3) People really do just prefer what D20 offers (also true for some people)

I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.

For sure. I haven't played D20 in about a year or more, and quite happily play games other than BD&D/AD&D/C&C. I won't be purchasing 4e material (unless someone gives stuff to me, which is how I got most of the D20 material I own).

[monty]

Why do I play 3.5? Because it's fun. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be playing it. Simple as that.

Sure, it has its problems, but that's part of what makes it interesting. Sometimes, I just feel like going Druidzilla and killing the world as a swift action. That kind of play wasn't intended by the designers, but it still makes it fun sometimes (if not overused, but the same can be said of lots of things). If I want to be able to stick someone's head in a bucket of water to heal them, I can do that. And the best part? If someone does something stupid like that in a game, the DM can fix it. Yes, I know that's a fallacy, but if you can't deal with the bugs, you aren't playing the game right.

[THAC0]

We played 3.5 because it's a lot easier to get players than 1e. We're switching to 4e (or giving it a chance, at least), because it seems to fix a lot of the issues we have with 3.5.

[Swordguy]

I'm switching because I'm sick and tired of 3.x, and because the only thing my players will agree to play is D&D.

I've got 2 people who really like superhero games, 1 person who practically only likes sci-fi, 1 person who thinks Deadlands is the be-all and end-all of gaming, 1 person who won't play any game that depresses her (so cyberpunk is out), and 1 person who refuses to play anything but fantasy ("it must have magic in it").

The ONLY thing they're willing to agree on is "D&D is the 2nd-best option", so it's practically the only thing we get to play. And since I categorically refuse to run any more 3.x games, well...

...there's times I miss my old, open-minded groups...

[Talya]

I don't know anyone who falls into the OP's categories, personally.

I've tried several systems. For high-fantasy, 3.5 is my favorite. (I'm eager to try 3.P though. Go Paizo!) I also love exalted so far. I've played WestEnd SWD6, Saga Edition, Palladium (oh god that system is bad), 1st Edition D&D, Deadlands (not enough to get a feel for it, mind you.)

I may eagerly play a computer game based on 4e, but I don't have any interest in it otherwise.

[BloodyAngel]

I actually play and run vast hordes of different games and systems. Notably, D&D 2nd, 3.5 and 4th Edition, Champions/hero system, All things white wolf (mostly old ed. vampire and werewolf), Rifts/Palladium, BESM, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wards d20, Star Wars (the old d6 system), warhammer fantasy roleplay, and for a while rolemaster.

I wouldn't say that any one of those is better than the rest... each has it's appeal. The hard part is finding people who want to play any of the above games. D&D is kind of the poster child for tabletop RPG's. Tell someone you play roleplaying games, and he's equally likely to think of console video games or MMO's. Tell him you play D&D, and they know exactly what you're talking about.

[Matthew]

I'm switching because I'm sick and tired of 3.x, and because the only thing my players will agree to play is D&D.

I've got 2 people who really like superhero games, 1 person who practically only likes sci-fi, 1 person who thinks Deadlands is the be-all and end-all of gaming, 1 person who won't play any game that depresses her (so cyberpunk is out), and 1 person who refuses to play anything but fantasy ("it must have magic in it").

The ONLY thing they're willing to agree on is "D&D is the 2nd-best option", so it's practically the only thing we get to play. And since I categorically refuse to run any more 3.x games, well...

...there's times I miss my old, open-minded groups...

Aw, mate. That's the perfect time to buy a Rules Cyclopedia and get back to basics.

[Trog]

Marketing.

If company x comes out with a new RPG how many people know it exists? Not many. How many players look at the system and decide to switch? Some of the not many.

If Hasbro comes out with a new game how many people know it exists? Lots and lots. How many players will look at the system and decide to switch? Lots.

I almost never do this but... QFT

And Branding. DnD has been around a long time and has high brand loyalty. Has the company always made the best decisions? *coughRedSteelSettingcough* Well, no. But since Wizards took over for TSR they have gotten a much better bunch of people who are more willing to improve the game and make it more accessible to new players.

They sink a lot of money into artwork, research, printing, etc. and their product, in the minds of many is worth it. Plus they own the lions share of top of mind awareness when it comes to table top role-playing games. Deservedly so.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't say that any one of those is better than the rest... each has it's appeal. The hard part is finding people who want to play any of the above games. D&D is kind of the poster child for tabletop RPG's. Tell someone you play roleplaying games, and he's equally likely to think of console video games or MMO's. Tell him you play D&D, and they know exactly what you're talking about.

This is an interesting problem, and one I think comes up for a lot of people. I have to say, though I have never encountered it. I usually play with my friends, who are happy enough to play pretty much anything, but the last time I actively recruited (back in 2001, mind) it was very easy to find players for an AD&D campaign, and additional players cycled in and out easily during the campaign. I think it must be hard to bring in D20 players, and I think that they are the majority of the RPG community.

[Oslecamo]

You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

[Nada Rakshasa]

I've only just begun to roleplay in this last 2-3 years now. In that time I've played D&D 3.5, GURPs, World of Darkness (old and new) and a friend's homebrewed system. For me, it's not a matter of switching, it's a matter of adding one more option to the list. *shrug* The only real deterrent against playing a different system is the lack of rules information. In the next few months I anticipate participating in campaigns in the above listed systems as well as 4e.

In my situation, flexibility is key.

[Trog]

You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

*pauses licking PHB in mid-lick*

*considers*

*shrugs. goes back to licking 4e books*

Mmmm... Brainwashing Ink.

[chiasaur11]

You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

Free puppies. That, instead of pooping, make bacon. And Jetpacks.

[Pauwel]

Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

Honestly, there are that many 'fantasy heart breakers' out there because people only think they know what they and other people want. Successful games are the ones that really give people what they want, and those are recognisable because they are successful (horrible logic loop, I know).

To be clear, I am not saying brand recognition and advertising play no part, far from it, in fact I am saying that those things are also what people want.

I can only point to my own thread and the responses made by many, who played DnD despite not actually being content with it.
Mutants and Masterminds 2e is, in my opinion, the best alternative to DnD.

I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.

My post is addressed to those who are switching to 4e.
Which may turn out to not be quite as big a group of people as I thought. Still, I reckon at least half of those who primarily use DnD 3.5 are going to switch to 4e.