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Thread: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
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2008-06-11, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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[4e] Creating Custom Traps
So, I like 4e thus far. I really do. However, as I was getting down to the nitty gritty of converting some 3.x stuff which shall remain nameless to 4e I came across the need to update some traps and I can't find anywhere it tells you how to homebrew traps!
There are default traps in the 4e DMG and there are vague sections on how/when to use them. However, I can't seem to find anything on trap design.
Specifically:
How much damage does a trap do per level?
How much damage is a status effect worth?
How much would multiple status effects be worth?
I think, stress think, from looking at the traps the standard Perception dc is level +3. There are some deviations from this though, and I have no idea why or how they balance.
Anyone know this?[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2008-06-11, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I hear that page 42 of the 4E DMG has a table with easy/normal/hard DCs sorted by level. That would be where I'd look for figuring out Perception/disabling/whatever DCs.
As for assigning damage and status effects and the like, it is my understanding that 4E wants to treat traps a lot like normal monster encounters, so the stats for monsters of the right level and type should be a working guideline. For example, imagine you have one of the classic traps- an automatic crossbow or similar is flinging arrows down a long hallway. Well, that's functioning like a ranged monster would.. so you go check what that level of Artillery-class monster inflicts, and use that as the base line for the damage.
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2008-06-11, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I just used the average damage by level that monsters also use. Can't remember the page number right now, though.
How much damage is a status effect worth?
How much would multiple status effects be worth?
I think, stress think, from looking at the traps the standard Perception dc is level +3. There are some deviations from this though, and I have no idea why or how they balance.
Anyone know this?
It is a little difficult. I was trying to convert a few and make new one and hit the same problems. I think I just ended up eyeballing it all and comparing it to other stuff, and that's where my answers come from.
An e-mail to CustServ might give different or better answers, though.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2008-06-13, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I took this advice, since the damage table doesn't say anything about the additional status effects and for this particular trap that's really important.
So, I e-mailed custserv and got this reply:
Originally Posted by WotC Custserv[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2008-06-13, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
That's what I'd use. You get the damage and the DCs, and the rest you come up with yourself. It's not like it needs to be a precise art.
But traps are a bit of a special case - the XP values don't actually correspond to the XP values for monsters of the same level all the time. Although I guess some of the traps may be Elite traps?
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2008-06-13, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I'd rather it be a precise art... particularly since I'm building/updating this particular trap for possible publication depending upon the GSL.
But traps are a bit of a special case - the XP values don't actually correspond to the XP values for monsters of the same level all the time. Although I guess some of the traps may be Elite traps?Last edited by AKA_Bait; 2008-06-13 at 04:07 PM.
[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2008-06-13, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
Guess I'm just lucky I don't really like traps that much and the adventures I'm planning on converting don't have that many. For 3.x, I usually just used the ones from the DMG (or Book of Challenges or whatever it was called), and I'll probably do that for 4E.
Speaking of which, where the heck is the GSL anyway?The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2008-06-13, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
You should totally rethink that. The new traps are like an improved version of the encounter traps from Dungeonscape, and make great encounter elements. (Converting traps to be the sole content of an encounter is not very functional; I'm not sure if any of the traps are "solo traps.")
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2008-06-13, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
They're just skill checks. Calculate them the same way as any skill check.
Easy: 15+1/2 level (round down)
Medium: 20+1/2 level (round down)
Hard: 25+1/2 level (round down)
That's just an estimation - there's actually a chart on DMG page 42 you should refer to when reverse-engineering traps properly.
Example checks:
False-floor pit:Perception Medium to notice, Thievery Really Easy to trip, Thievery Hard to disarm, Athletics Really Easy or Medium to jump over, Athletics Easy to climb out.
Spectral Tendrils:Perception Medium to notice, Arcana Easy to notice the focus, Arcana Hard to get a +2 bonus to disarm attempts, Acrobatics Medium to move through, Thievery Hard to disarm.
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2008-06-13, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I do as I always do: pick up a die, and think up some random number, and write that down.
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2008-06-13, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
That... is a bit troubling. I was excited about WotC providing that handy table on page 42 for quickly resolving one-off situations... but the ability to make your own stuff is a bit more difficult now. I wouldn't like WotC to use Page 42 as an excuse for discouraging homebrewing.
I homebrewed a trap myself, actually, but I based it off of one of the standard traps in the DMG. I took the standard pit trap and gave it a counter-balancing floor (so that weight on the "end" tiles caused it to spin on a central shaft, but that it would settle back to closed after a few rotations) and a "control box" (actually stone triggers in a wall carving) to set the floor to "lock." For XP, I upgraded it to elite.
You may just want to stick to fiddling with the basic trap-types in the DMG and altering fluff and swapping characteristics (using the page 42 DCs when necessary) and just making the trap an "elite" version if it is much more difficult.
Since the PCs aren't going to see the numbers you're using, and it's kind of hard to meta-game traps, I think this'll work OK until I get comfortable enough with the system to go freehand again. But thems the breaks for trying out a new game.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2008-06-13, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
No, no, you misunderstand me. The book never says, "Use the page 42 table to reverse-engineer everything". It's just that all the traps are basically built based on page 42.
So if you use the table, in conjunction with mob rules, you've got trap houseruling completely down (Well, I think Elite is +2 to all DC's, but that's it).
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2008-06-13, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
while i can understand your concern all 4e is trying to do it get away from the 10 step program for building your own traps presented in 3.5, which places a downward pressure on creativity because people feel they are obliged to follow the tables or their trap is somehow not "legal"
if this is for a publication then build your trap, throw it against some players and reflect on the outcome, was it too easy/hard? did it equal a elite opponent or just a standard?. look at the false floor trap or spear gauntlet and observer how they differ between elite and regular versions of themselves.
in a homebrew game you can throw a trap at players and assign XP after the fight if you cannot come to a decision on how difficult it will theoretically be. for publication you might be better off staying with standard traps or alterations to standard traps using page 44 to scale them in level.
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2008-06-14, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I'd like to do that but there aren't any basic trap types in the DMG that I can see which either a) apply multiple status effects or b) do something similar to the Beholders 'fail multiple saves and you die' effect. Either of those could potentially work as an adjustment to the trap but I can't find any guidelines for either one.
[QUOTE=Jarlax;4458649]while i can understand your concern all 4e is trying to do it get away from the 10 step program for building your own traps presented in 3.5, which places a downward pressure on creativity because people feel they are obliged to follow the tables or their trap is somehow not "legal"[/qoute]
Is a bloody table equating status effects with amount of damage really too much to ask for?
if this is for a publication then build your trap, throw it against some players and reflect on the outcome, was it too easy/hard? did it equal a elite opponent or just a standard?. look at the false floor trap or spear gauntlet and observer how they differ between elite and regular versions of themselves.
for publication you might be better off staying with standard traps or alterations to standard traps using page 44 to scale them in level.[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2008-06-14, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
You might get it if you buy the Premium SRD development package, perhaps.
But in the meantime, a method I'd worked out but haven't tested yet goes like thus:
-Take the lower damage portion of the Page 42 table.
-Compare with At-Will powers.
-Calculate damage value of effects.
I dunno if it'll calibrate correctly, but I bet if you focus on average damage die values for both the table and the theoretical player you're calibrating it to (i.e. 1D6 = 3.5 damage), take into account stat increases and a couple other variables, it'll work out.
Now I want to go do that now that I've described it...
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2008-06-14, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Creating Custom Traps
I think that 4e is moving away from the "save or die" mechanic, since it was never really fun. I think this OotS strip showed it the best. If you want to make Bond-like deathtraps, you might do better mixing several traps together within a single "encounter." Say, combine a pit trap with a rockslide above it, so that the PC becomes slowly buried alive in the pit.
As for the "multiple status effects" - what are you looking for there? It seems easy enough to turn regular traps into poison/disease ones just by calling them "elite." Again, it might just be easier to break the one super-trap into multiple smaller traps/hazards.
I guess you can call that a design flaw, but I think it fits with WotC's desire to segment encounters to make for easier tweaking... and to avoid pure Luck Based Missions.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad