I love 4e, but I have come upon a problem...

[Burley]

My problem is this: The times in 3.5 when players thought they were hot stuff are missing in some 4e places. Mainly, "clever" spells usage.
In the game I play in (not DM), our sorceror used Tensor's Floating Disk as a floatation device, though, it shouldn't have worked. Now, one of our group mates is complaining that there aren't anymore spells that can be used "on the fly", because they're either rituals, or gone.

"I can't trip the ogre with Tensor's Disc anymore? Ten minutes to cast? What about 'force pushing' with Mage Hand? NO?!?"
Have any other DMs, or players, noticed this kinda thing from group members?

[Charity]

Well if your tensors disc is already there, I'm sure you could petition for it's use as a tripwire in the same way.
I do ken what you are saying, but there is still the same guy behind the screen, if you want to do something a bit off the wall with a power or skill or whatever, well he's still the guy who said yes last time isn't he?

1st level wizard example
Icy terrain should totally freeze the top of a lake. But for how long? anyone wanna risk it?

[centauri]

Oh, man, that's one of the things I like the most about 4th Edition: not having to adjudicate silly uses for pointless spells.

[Inyssius Tor]

Well... if your houserules said you could "force push" with Mage Hand before, when the rules as written said you explicitly couldn't do that, there's nothing keeping you from making the same houserule in 4E. It might be even more broken, since your wizard can do it at-will, but at least it's not just one more broken thing to throw on the wizard's huge pile of broken things.

As for Tenser's Floating Disc--it lasts a pretty long time now, right? So much so that you can pretty much leave it on all day? What's keeping you from tripping people with it (aside from your DM)? I'd say giving it trip attacks and the ability to fly and whatever else would be overpowered, but hey--your sorcerer spent his 1st-level slot on Tenser's floating disc, he needs all the help he can get.

[tumble check]

Oh, man, that's one of the things I like the most about 4th Edition: not having to adjudicate silly uses for pointless spells.

I've found that instances like those comprise some of the best moments in campaigns. Enjoy your 4e.

[Burley]

Silly? Yes.
Useless? No, and Never.

I wouldn't ever call any spell "useless." I am a staunch believer that spells all have a use, no matter how small a use that is.

But, that's just me, and I like to use the word "staunch."

Well... if your houserules said you could "force push" with Mage Hand before, when the rules as written said you explicitly couldn't do that, there's nothing keeping you from making the same houserule in 4E. It might be even more broken, since your wizard can do it at-will, but at least it's not just one more broken thing to throw on the wizard's huge pile of broken things.

As for Tenser's Floating Disc--it lasts a pretty long time now, right? So much so that you can pretty much leave it on all day? What's keeping you from tripping people with it (aside from your DM)? I'd say giving it trip attacks and the ability to fly and whatever else would be overpowered, but hey--your sorcerer spent his 1st-level slot on Tenser's floating disc, he needs all the help he can get.

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Some players and DMs say its okay. The Rule of Cool, and all that jazz. But, now that the cool stuff is at-will, or lasts all day... Is it really all that cool anymore?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Silly? Yes.
Useless? No, and Never.

I wouldn't ever call any spell "useless." I am a staunch believer that spells all have a use, no matter how small a use that is.

But, that's just me, and I like to use the word "staunch."

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Some players and DMs say its okay. The Rule of Cool, and all that jazz. But, now that the cool stuff is at-will, or lasts all day... Is it really all that cool anymore?

Yes, it is. Now that you can actually do ambushes with it, Ghost sound got much better.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If y'all like wizards who do crazy stuff with spells, you should be playing Ars Magicia / pre-reboot Mage. That's kind of the point of both their systems.

And if you liked messing with spell descriptions in 3rd, you should play 2nd - there are even less rules as to how things are supposed to have run.

I'm not getting down on you for feeling like the rules are getting in the way of your game - I'm just pointing out a few systems which accommodate that sort of creativity much more easily.

Me? I like having a system that both my PCs and I can rely on. No, this doesn't mean I hate making judgment calls, but that if I'm making a judgment call I have something to go off of, rather than "lawyering" over the spell description, or pulling a DC out of thin air.

Magic is certainly diminished in scope, but the sort of stuff being pulled with layering magical items and the like in 3rd was getting out of hand. Plus, Cantrip as it is now is excellent - completely at-will wizard-y abilities like Mage Hand and the ever-popular Prestidigitation? My 2nd Edition wizard would have killed for this, and I enjoy playing a wizard that doesn't have to get up from his compfy chair to pull a tankard of ale from across the room

[Skaven]

I have a question about tensers disc.

you said that standing on ot doesnt work, why is that?

As I read it, it can take a large amount of weight: easily enough to carry a small or medium charcater once you have a few levels and get a decent check.

You can also move it by concentrating in it by will.

So feasibly, you could stand on it and move, or am I reading it wrong?

[Burley]

Well, the problem isn't the amount of weight, but that it floats above the ground. Not above water. The force effect, as I imagine it, would need something firm to push off of. It can only hover over the ground, no higher, no lower than ~3ft.
(Besides the rules reason why it wouldn't work, he was at the top of a 50ft cliff helping somebody in the waves below with it. The range was too far, and the DM allowed it because he was too lazy to look up the rules.)

[Dove]

Probably one of the most wonderful things about 4E is how desperately easy to mod it is. Go up to your DM and say . . .

So, I have this idea for sort of a trickster Mcguyver wizard, and I'd like a few custom powers to support it.

Could we make an ability to conjure an immovible 5' barrier--a tripwire or pole--as about a level 3 utility spell? Encounter would be awesome, but I could live with daily. I think it should be an interrupt to attack a moving target with it, it should be intelligence vs. reflex to make them fall prone and interrupt the movement. Maybe we could also climb it, balance on it, or use it to block off a square?

I'm also thinking about maybe a level 5 "conjure bubble gum" to make a sticky zone or item, and a telekinesis effect would rock.

You don't need a lot of custom powers; three or four over a few levels would probably be sufficient. Heck, if you come up with something really interesting that makes a justifiable at-will, that alone might be sufficient. If you were my player we'd have a half-dozen ideas banged out in an hour, and you'd probably find one of them in a wand in an encounter or so as a reward for your creativity. Done and done.

[F.L.]

If y'all like wizards who do crazy stuff with spells, you should be playing Ars Magicia / pre-reboot Mage. That's kind of the point of both their systems.

And if you liked messing with spell descriptions in 3rd, you should play 2nd - there are even less rules as to how things are supposed to have run.

I'm not getting down on you for feeling like the rules are getting in the way of your game - I'm just pointing out a few systems which accommodate that sort of creativity much more easily.

Me? I like having a system that both my PCs and I can rely on. No, this doesn't mean I hate making judgment calls, but that if I'm making a judgment call I have something to go off of, rather than "lawyering" over the spell description, or pulling a DC out of thin air.

Magic is certainly diminished in scope, but the sort of stuff being pulled with layering magical items and the like in 3rd was getting out of hand. Plus, Cantrip as it is now is excellent - completely at-will wizard-y abilities like Mage Hand and the ever-popular Prestidigitation? My 2nd Edition wizard would have killed for this, and I enjoy playing a wizard that doesn't have to get up from his compfy chair to pull a tankard of ale from across the room

Hmm, interesting idea I just had, run a 2e game, with related zaniness, but with 4e combat rules. Possibly with 2e setting elements as well, since I'm not a huge fan of most of the 4e setting.

[nagora]

If y'all like wizards who do crazy stuff with spells, you should be playing Ars Magicia / pre-reboot Mage. That's kind of the point of both their systems.

And if you liked messing with spell descriptions in 3rd, you should play 2nd - there are even less rules as to how things are supposed to have run.

And if you're going to play 2e, you might as well do it properly and play 1ed, then you won't have to bother with that tedious skill system and you can have Demons and Devils too: Succubi and Erinyess! what's not to like?

[Illiterate Scribe]

My problem is this: The times in 3.5 when players thought they were hot stuff are missing in some 4e places. Mainly, "clever" spells usage.
In the game I play in (not DM), our sorceror used Tensor's Floating Disk as a floatation device, though, it shouldn't have worked. Now, one of our group mates is complaining that there aren't anymore spells that can be used "on the fly", because they're either rituals, or gone.

"I can't trip the ogre with Tensor's Disc anymore? Ten minutes to cast? What about 'force pushing' with Mage Hand? NO?!?"
Have any other DMs, or players, noticed this kinda thing from group members?

Exactly. This is my bone to pick with 4e.

WHERE. IS. RUBE. GOLDBERG.

[Inhuman Bot]

One thing: I don't think you can trip an ogre with Tenser's disk, and I know there's next to nothing you can 'Force push' (20 pounds? I think it has to be unliving as well) but just house rule those back in. take some time with your DM to let him know that you liked the old spells and ask him. It'll probly work.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Exactly. This is my bone to pick with 4e.

WHERE. IS. RUBE. GOLDBERG.

In your base killing your d00ds!

Sorry. Just had to.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Silly? Yes.
Useless? No, and Never.

I wouldn't ever call any spell "useless." I am a staunch believer that spells all have a use, no matter how small a use that is.

But, that's just me, and I like to use the word "staunch."

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Some players and DMs say its okay. The Rule of Cool, and all that jazz. But, now that the cool stuff is at-will, or lasts all day... Is it really all that cool anymore?

But if this stuff never actually worked the way you're describing, how does 4e change anything?

As for at-will stuff not being cool, why not? If you can use prestidigitation at will an you can still use it creatively outside of the rules.

Sadly, I really don't see the basis for these objections.

[Ralfarius]

Tenser's Floating Disc does not work that way!

I'd like to second Dove. The system is well-defined enough on how powers work, you could actually make a power that did what you wanted.

[Illiterate Scribe]

In your base killing your d00ds!

Sorry. Just had to.

If Rube Goldberg was in my base killing my dudes, I don't think I'd even intervene.

The image of someone killing my men with one of these is even more awesome than Solo:

[Azerian Kelimon]

If Rube Goldberg was in my base killing my dudes, I don't think I'd even intervene.

The image of someone killing my men with one of these is even more awesome than Solo:

The napkin is almost as good as Solo on the Solo scale of awesome. I'd put it in the Collin152 level.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The napkin is almost as good as Solo on the Solo scale of awesome. I'd put it in the Collin152 level.

Fanboy.



We need the capability to build these sorts of things in 4e; you could in 3.5e, certainly.

[Azerian Kelimon]

NEEDS MOAR LINKY TO ORIGINAL SITE!

That said, you also can do that in 4th. No rule I can think of is stopping you. That said, much like in 3.5, those aren't GIVEN to you. You have to 'brew 'em.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Admittedly, I cheated on the second image; that's by Heath Robinson. Just google either of their names, and you've found a ton.

Anyway - I take your point that things can be homebrewed, but I prefer working inside - and, if the mood takes me, subverting (use quintessence and a lyre of building to sculpt stasis cocoons as a combat maneuver? **** YEAH!) an existing system.

Also, pic updated to show 3e vs. 4e distinction:

[Ned the undead]

NEEDS MOAR LINKY TO ORIGINAL SITE!

That said, you also can do that in 4th. No rule I can think of is stopping you. That said, much like in 3.5, those aren't GIVEN to you. You have to 'brew 'em.

Just like a tasty malt liquor. But it's a +5 tasty, malt, walnut-cracking, cannon instead.

[EvilElitest]

My problem is this: The times in 3.5 when players thought they were hot stuff are missing in some 4e places. Mainly, "clever" spells usage.
In the game I play in (not DM), our sorceror used Tensor's Floating Disk as a floatation device, though, it shouldn't have worked. Now, one of our group mates is complaining that there aren't anymore spells that can be used "on the fly", because they're either rituals, or gone.

"I can't trip the ogre with Tensor's Disc anymore? Ten minutes to cast? What about 'force pushing' with Mage Hand? NO?!?"
Have any other DMs, or players, noticed this kinda thing from group members?

the loss of clever spell uses isn't something that 4E is soley guilty off, we have been losing them since 2E came to an end. Now 4E has squeezed the cleverness out of the spells far more effectively but the lack of cleverness started in 3E
from
EE

[Brogen]

There are Demons and Devils in 2nd Edition.
They're called Baatezu and Tanar'ri.

[Illiterate Scribe]

the loss of clever spell uses isn't something that 4E is soley guilty off, we have been losing them since 2E came to an end. Now 4E has squeezed the cleverness out of the spells far more effectively but the lack of cleverness started in 3E
from
EE

Explain, plz. As far as I can tell, the combination of a standardised ruleset with a great bucketload of spells meant that this honour went to 3e.

[SadisticFishing]

Okay, so the 4e rules don't include things that the 3.5 rules didn't include, but you decided to house rule in.

This is a problem how?

Personally, I was kinda forced into the wizard position, and I've been having lots of fun doing stupid magic tricks while walking around. Prestidigitation at will is enough to make the 4e Wizard far superior to a 3.5 one in the long run.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Explain, plz. As far as I can tell, the combination of a standardised ruleset with a great bucketload of spells meant that this honour went to 3e.

The thing is that WotC tried to systematize all these spell effects. 2nd Edition had a highly vague ruleset for things you're doing with your character (attacks = THAC0? Saves vs. Dragon Breath for pit traps, Rods for medusa's gaze?) but a very specific way to model campaign effects (encumberance, light, overland distance, etc.). The character-side of things was so poorly defined that you were practically invited to invent rules out of whole cloth for many fairly common heroic events. This is particularly true for how spells interact - where do you think the "turn a bag of holding inside out" scenarios came from?

3rd, however, did a lot to define character actions. Some spells could not set things on fire, even though they did fire damage, if you wanted to knock someone down, you used Bull Rush, which had rules, etc. If you want to make a free-running game where someone can just say "I'm doing to swing from chandeliers" or "I'm going to use burning hands to start a forest fire" you were "more" free to do things because the rules didn't even pretend to cover these sorts of things.

4e, following the tradition of 3e, has tied down magic more to prevent absurd results and player confusion. This makes the whole game run smoother, and for the majority of encounters, you no longer have to stop the game for the DM to figure out, say, if a fighter can climb up a rocky cliff. However, it does require the players to spend more time following the rules as written, since there is just less ambiguity to use.

Now, a nice part of 4e is that rather than tying down all kinds of obscure tasks into unique tables, it has a very simple guide as to how to deal with non-standard actions. This was barely mentioned in 3e, BTW.

[JaxGaret]

Anyway - I take your point that things can be homebrewed, but I prefer working inside - and, if the mood takes me, subverting (use quintessence and a lyre of building to sculpt stasis cocoons as a combat maneuver? **** YEAH!) an existing system.

Part of the reason for why I like the reduced power level in 4e is a matter of verisimilitude. Yes, that word that everyone has a readied action to flame on sight.

If your character can do things such as manipulate the essence of the universe to annihilate their enemies, why wouldn't they do it? Why are the CoDzillas and Batmans and Godificers holding back? Because they have to if the campaign is going to be enjoyable by all of the players, that's why. Unless they're all playing full casters too.

It's just my personal opinion; that sort of thing simply makes the play experience less enjoyable for me.