[4e] Epic not feeling very "Epic"?

[Crow]

I just gave epic level play a run-through. Nothing formal, but just a few combats at *around* CR 25.

I am a little underwhelmed. We had a Dragonborn Fighter, an Eladrin Warlord/Wizard, a Human Warlock, and a Halfling Rogue. Overall, while the classes did seem more powerful, to a point, they didn't seem all that epic as far as capabilities are concerned. The wizard had some powers that had wider areas of effect, and the fighters had more W's, but not much else besides status effects which didn't last very long at all. Maybe this is something to do with still being used to 3.x (level 25 would be roughly equivelant to what...16-17th level?), but the combat felt similar to low level combat. It was nice having a larger assortment of abilites, but they still ran out pretty fast, and if you chose any situational ones, you may not get a chance to use them at all. Also, there was still the problem of having to chip away at enemies for a long time. Luckily, it is very easy to keep your allies alive.

Again, this was not a full-fledged game. Just a few combats run for the hell of it. Has anyone else given epic-level characters a try? If so, please post your impressions.

[The Necroswanso]

Well the epic is streamliend into progression. It's standard now. Not some game breaking god-hood... Unfortunately it won't feel as ridonculous.

[EvilElitest]

i felt the same way, but i don't like epic play anyways. However, i feel that 4E focused so much effort on making the player feel like the big old hero at level 1 that it makes epic play seem redundant. When you epic your entire career, the official epic level seems silly
from
EE

[Crow]

I've never played 3.x epic. But I have played in the 15-18 range.

It just doesn't seem like your characters can do all that much more than they could at lower levels. I can't really descibe it, but it's just that "feel" you get from playing it.

[EvilElitest]

I've never played 3.x epic. But I have played in the 15-18 range.

It just doesn't seem like your characters can do all that much more than they could at lower levels. I can't really descibe it, but it's just that "feel" you get from playing it.

I like 18-21 level games in 3E, just not actual epic, because there the balence is just so awful i just can't take it anymore. I like the idea, but it really seems like way to hard of an idea to manage. Now in 4E, they might have balenced Epic better, but it just feels like higher level,
from
EE

[Kristoss]

I'm sure wizards will publish "super epic" in a few years. Which will be epic as we know it from 3.x, As you have mentioned 4th epic is just part of the normal level range for 4th ed.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm sure wizards will publish "super epic" in a few years. Which will be epic as we know it from 3.x, As you have mentioned 4th epic is just part of the normal level range for 4th ed.

Yep, that was the idea to extend the Sweet Spot.

[EvilElitest]

I'm sure wizards will publish "super epic" in a few years. Which will be epic as we know it from 3.x, As you have mentioned 4th epic is just part of the normal level range for 4th ed.

would they do that.......yeah, they would.....sigh

if you only have a sweet spot and nothing else, then it isn't a sweet spot, it is the norm. If everybody is super, nobody is
from
EE

[Kizara]

Well, one of the problems with 3e was that things got a bit... out of hand at higher levels.

Characters could do anything, had huge amounts of resources and lots of bonuses coming from everywhere. They were also massively more powerful then characters 10 levels lower, and by more then just ability to deal more damage.

Personally, I liked this conceptually but thought that some of the larger issues of destablization you get at higher-levels could use some tweaking.


With 4e, they dealt with this problem by simply not having this element in the game (which is fairly indictitive of their design philosophy IMO). Thus, characters aren't really anymore capable or 'epic' at level 25 to level 5.

Imagine if the whole game was (on 3e's scale) levels 3 to about 11. Now spread that out over 30 levels.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, one of the problems with 3e was that things got a bit... out of hand at higher levels.

Characters could do anything, had huge amounts of resources and lots of bonuses coming from everywhere. They were also massively more powerful then characters 10 levels lower, and by more then just ability to deal more damage.

Yes, the term I hear used is Rocket Tag. You hit them before they hit you (applies thricely in Epic).

[JaxGaret]

Part of it most likely was that you were only half-Epic; the 26th level epic utility power and the 30th level destiny feature are a big part of what makes Epic play feel truly "epic".

Also, there are two houserules that might make Epic play feel a bit more Epic; one is my proposed houserule to make combats feel less like extended chip-away slugfests - if you feel a monster has too many HP, you reduce its HP by half, and reduce its monster level by 1. See this thread for reasoning why.

The other proposed houserule is also in that thread, by gw. You can simply not allow powers to be "lost" via leveling; this gives Epic characters a much larger collection of powers at their disposal as compared to Paragon characters.

[Crow]

Part of it most likely was that you were only half-Epic; the 26th level epic utility power and the 30th level destiny feature are a big part of what makes Epic play feel truly "epic".

Maybe, I hope you're right. I am not trying to compare 4e epic to 3.x epic. I think we all know that the two are on a totally different scale. What I am trying to say, is that it just didn't seem like my character could do a whole lot more than he could before. I didn't feel all that more powerful than i did when I was giving our first level characters a whirl. It just doesn't have that "epic" (Not in the 3.x sense, but in the classical sense) feel.

Has anyone else given it a try yet?

[Friv]

would they do that.......yeah, they would.....sigh

if you only have a sweet spot and nothing else, then it isn't a sweet spot, it is the norm. If everybody is super, nobody is
from
EE

Um...

I don't want to come in on either side of this debate, because I haven't actually played 4e yet (and wasn't a big D&D fan in 3e, really), but you should possibly parse your argument before making it.

Because if you want to use that quote in this context, what you are actually arguing is that every game needs a section that is not fun in order for you to recognize that the other part is.

"If everything is fun, then nothing is."

I hope I don't have to explain why I disagree with this concept.

[Frost]

Yes, they talked a lot about extending the sweet spot. But judging from the actual game WotC decided the sweet spot was from level 3-8. A level 9 3.5 character really has more complex, varied, and impactful options then level 30 characters in 4e.

You can't feel like you are genuinely epic, because what epic means to most people is something that has no place in 4E.

[Kizara]

Yes, the term I hear used is Rocket Tag. You hit them before they hit you (applies thricely in Epic).

Indeed.

To extend that analogy, everyone in 4e has daggers. Some have differently-shaped or colored daggers, but really they are just daggers.

Later on, people get swords. They do more, but really amount to the same thing in the end. Everyone still has their differently-shaped and colored swords.


Also, everyone wears magical chainmail at the begining. So while the daggers can eventually kill, its a hacking contest for the most part. Now, later on they have fullplate. Which means you need even more wacks to wear someone down.


Metaphors ftw!

[JaxGaret]

It's much, much easier to make combat more deadly in 4e than it is to make combat less deadly in 3e.

For example, I have proposed a simple fix for the "4e monsters have too many HP" problem: halve any offending monster's HP and drop its monster level by 1. Read here for reasoning why.

[Kizara]

It's much, much easier to make combat more deadly in 4e than it is to make combat less deadly in 3e.

For example, I have proposed a simple fix for the "4e monsters have too many HP" problem: halve any offending monster's HP and drop its monster level by 1. Read here for reasoning why.

Ok, so you take away some of the armor. I completely agree that this would improve the game, since one of my major issues with it is that it's designed to be a game but the game is too BLOODY EASY.

However, even if you took off some of the armor, its still somewhat lame to only have daggers.

[JaxGaret]

Ok, so you take away some of the armor. I completely agree that this would improve the game, since one of my major issues with it is that it's designed to be a game but the game is too BLOODY EASY.

However, even if you took off some of the armor, its still somewhat lame to only have daggers.

I wouldn't say that 4e is too easy. I've killed plenty of PCs in 4e.

I like the fact that everyone has the same weapons in 4e. Perhaps you would have preferred everyone to have rocket launchers, but I certainly would not. Since everyone does not have rocket launchers, they have daggers.

Or is there some happy medium that you would have preferred? Could you possibly outline how one might go about designing that?

[thewamp]

I wouldn't say that 4e is too easy. I've killed plenty of PCs in 4e.

I like the fact that everyone has the same weapons in 4e. Perhaps you would have preferred everyone to have rocket launchers, but I certainly would not. Since everyone does not have rocket launchers, they have daggers.

Or is there some happy medium that you would have preferred? Could you possibly outline how one might go about designing that?

I think the idea is that he would have preferred it more battle royale... really actually, the premise behind the movie (minus the disturbing aspects of teenagers killing each other) is very much like 3rd edition. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good analogy to 4th, so that doesn't mean much.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Paragon the new Epic? Or "high-level" play, at any rate.

Metaphors ftw!

People seem to be arguing by metaphor a lot these days.
Bluntly, it's not working. A casual scroll through this thread seems to be adequate proof of that.

We have colored daggers or swords or something. Some chainmail. Rocket launchers. Umm. . . Battle Royale.

Come on people.

[JaxGaret]

I think the idea is that he would have preferred it more battle royale... really actually, the premise behind the movie (minus the disturbing aspects of teenagers killing each other) is very much like 3rd edition. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good analogy to 4th, so that doesn't mean much.

Could you explain this a bit further? I'm not sure what you're getting at

[Titanium Dragon]

Epic play in 3.x sucked.

Yeah, I know some people liked it, but most people detested it. Really, the whole upper levels of 3.x (really, the moment wizards began getting out of control) the game ceased to really be the same game and ultimately ceased to really be fun.

The problem is that being uber powerful isn't really what D&D is about; its about a certain level of power. 3.x failed at that, miserably. Power variance was extremely high between different character classes and between different sorts of monsters.

Ultimately epic play completely trivialized monsters (and further trivialized nonspellcasters) and made the game largely unfun. You were superpowered to the point where there wasn't anything which could realistically threaten you save things which basically broke the rules of the game you did.

Rocket tag doesn't feel epic; it feels stupid.

The point of epic play is for people to be fighting enemies far beyond the ken of what they previously were capable of. The reason epic play is epic is the scope of what you're affecting. Combat is going to be pretty similar regardless of level; if it isn't, then the game failed horribly. This may come as a surprise to some people, but others will see the truth - the reality is that a game system is idealized for a certain type of play. Once you stray too far from that, the game is no longer fun. So the game can change, but not too much, and it has limits beyond which you cannot stray and keep the game itself intact.

Epic play isn't about the game but about what you're doing with it from the roleplaying standpoint.

[icefractal]

The problem is that the flavor "you're a demigod!", and the actual gameplay "you're somewhat more competent!" don't line up at all.

You get somewhat better at doing what you do, but end up sorely lacking in what most people would call epicness.
* Ability to change things permanently - Even as a so-called "demigod", you still can't make an illusion that lasts more than a day, or create a teleportation circle, or really do anything with a permanent effect.
* Use cool powers - sure, you get new ways to deal damage and move enemies around. But what of other stuff? There's only one flight power that lasts over five minutes, and teleportation remains extremely expensive. Hell, you can't even be invisible without sustaining it ... or open a door in less than 10 minutes!
* Killing power - Not that significant a rise. Killing an army is something you'd expect an Epic character to be able to do, and is not possible unless the DM makes them not just minions, but low level minions. And compared to your power at lower levels, you're just not that much more deadly.

Maybe I wouldn't mind as much if they just called you "experienced heroes", but claiming that you get to be a demigod but not even having as much actual power as a 9th level 3E character is uninspiring.

[Titanium Dragon]

The problem is that the flavor "you're a demigod!", and the actual gameplay "you're somewhat more competent!" don't line up at all.

Well, given Orcus is probably a match for a demigod...

You get somewhat better at doing what you do, but end up sorely lacking in what most people would call epicness.
* Ability to change things permanently - Even as a so-called "demigod", you still can't make an illusion that lasts more than a day, or create a teleportation circle, or really do anything with a permanent effect.

Creating permanent stuff is problematic within the D&D system. You can't really do that stuff within the confines of the system and still be playing the same game, I'm afraid.

* Use cool powers - sure, you get new ways to deal damage and move enemies around. But what of other stuff? There's only one flight power that lasts over five minutes, and teleportation remains extremely expensive. Hell, you can't even be invisible without sustaining it ... or open a door in less than 10 minutes!

Flight is horribly broken, hence the great deal of restriction on it. I think if you read the Tarrasque's entry in the MM you'll see why flight is such a problem. Basically, it eliminates massive amounts of monsters and adventures. It has to be heavily controlled by the DM.

* Killing power - Not that significant a rise. Killing an army is something you'd expect an Epic character to be able to do, and is not possible unless the DM makes them not just minions, but low level minions. And compared to your power at lower levels, you're just not that much more deadly.

So? You're a high level dude, you aren't fighting mooks anymore. And should an epic character be able to slaughter an army on their own? I don't think so, really.

Maybe I wouldn't mind as much if they just called you "experienced heroes", but claiming that you get to be a demigod but not even having as much actual power as a 9th level 3E character is uninspiring.

Sure, except for the fact that 4e is fun and 3e was not much fun after you'd done it for a while. Breaking the game is only fun for so long, until you realize that you don't have a game to play anymore. There's a reason they got rid of a lot of the garbage high level spellcasters could do previously - it was horrendously broken and unfun for the rest of the party and bad for the game on the whole.

[JaxGaret]

The problem is that the flavor "you're a demigod!", and the actual gameplay "you're somewhat more competent!" don't line up at all.

Why not? Hercules was a Demigod, and his power level lines up just fine with Epic or even Paragon 4e characters.

[quote=icefractalYou get somewhat better at doing what you do, but end up sorely lacking in what most people would call epicness.[/quote]

Oh yeah? Take that up with Beowulf, Hercules, Odysseus, Cucuhullain etc. They're epic heroes. Even Merlin wasn't all-powerful like 3e Wizards are.

The gods are less powerful, too. Orcus is almost a god, and he's a 33rd level Solo. Moradin is rumored to be 38th level, and the chart tops out at 40, which presumably is the level of the Overgod. Epic heroes are few and far between.

[Draz74]

^(@icefractal) Some of that sounds like stuff they'll save for splatbooks. New epic-only Rituals and so on.

But it seems to me that the only way the game can feel truly "epic" is for the DM to carefully craft it that way. Make epic-level monsters hard to find anywhere in the campaign world, so that most foes are easy for epic characters to beat. However, those few epic monsters are busy with plots to destroy the entire world, or assassinate gods, or ... stuff like that. So the epic characters still feel stressed, even though they're pretty much the Big Bads On The Block, because they're the only ones who can deal with the things that need to be dealt with.

Also, the DM needs to emphasize flashy things that are traditionally associated with epic play (even if they can actually be done at Paragon tier too), such as rampant plane-shifting.

[Titanium Dragon]

Why not? Hercules was a Demigod, and his power level lines up just fine with Epic or even Paragon 4e characters.

Indeed. Being a demigod doesn't mean you're brokenly powerful, just powerful.

I think what people fundamentally don't understand is this:

No system is going to be able to handle fighting goblins which act like goblins should and gods who act like gods should. The two are mutually exclusive. No system handles it well.

What you ultimately have to do to make it work is either make the goblins more like gods or make the gods more like goblins. As people enjoy fighting goblins, and don't really enjoy rocket tag, it is logical to make the gods more like goblins.

This is the fundamental problem with statting out things like gods - you come to the (entirely logical) conclusion that if you level up enough you can kill them. People like challenging the gods. The problem is that you can't really make the gods godly and have that work at all. Hence D&D's gods being ultimately pretty wussy in 4e - yeah they're tough, but they're not beyond everything else.

If you want gods to be gods, you can't really stat them out.

[JaxGaret]

Indeed. Being a demigod doesn't mean you're brokenly powerful, just powerful.

Right.

I think what people fundamentally don't understand is this:

No system is going to be able to handle fighting goblins which act like goblins should and gods who act like gods should. The two are mutually exclusive. No system handles it well.

What you ultimately have to do to make it work is either make the goblins more like gods or make the gods more like goblins. As people enjoy fighting goblins, and don't really enjoy rocket tag, it is logical to make the gods more like goblins.

Good point.

This is the fundamental problem with statting out things like gods - you come to the (entirely logical) conclusion that if you level up enough you can kill them. People like challenging the gods. The problem is that you can't really make the gods godly and have that work at all. Hence D&D's gods being ultimately pretty wussy in 4e - yeah they're tough, but they're not beyond everything else.

If you want gods to be gods, you can't really stat them out.

Well, since the 4e PCs top out at level 30, and monsters keep on increasing to level 40, it'll take a lot of Epic PCs to be able to challenge a god.

For instance, it would take well over twenty level-30 PCs to make an even match with a level 40 Solo Overgod.

[Orzel]

3e's epic was all about breaking rules and making new ones ("Dexterous Will" I break your long ranged mind control with me dexterous fingers, yeehaw!). In 4e, there are real rules and guidelines for epic so it doesn't feel that much different than non-epic.

[MartinHarper]

* Ability to change things permanently - Even as a so-called "demigod", you still can't make an illusion that lasts more than a day, or create a teleportation circle, or really do anything with a permanent effect.

There's magic item creation, which is fairly permanent.
Also, there's home-brew. Since combat ability isn't being traded for non-combat utility any more, the DM can hand out homebrewed non-combat utility like candy without it unbalancing the game.

Create Castle
You hew a castle out of solid rock, either by brute force, or with arcane power.
Level: 26
Category: Construction
Time: 1 day
Duration: Permanent
Component Cost: castle-sized monolithic piece of rock (priceless).
Market Price: n/a
Key Skill: Athletics or Arcana.
Secondary skill: Dungeoneering.
Effect: Make a Dungeoneering check and add it to the Athletics or Arcana result. The castle lasts for that many years before it requires structural repair.

As people enjoy fighting goblins, and don't really enjoy rocket tag, it is logical to make the gods more like goblins.

I don't see that gods fighting beings with godlike power should necessarily be "rocket tag". I'd expect gods to have better defences than their attacks, which is why Loki doesn't sneak up on Thor when he's not looking and kill him in the surprise round.