[3.5] Cleric Prestige class

[Jarlax]

hey guys i have been going through every book i know looking for a halfway decent cleric prestige class. i cant find one that i like so i figured i would turn to you. here is the setup.

- level 15 campaign
- no book restrictions
- only a LA+1 max (incase its a racial based class)

although not requirements:
- im trying very hard not to steer too close to "too evil" or "too good" we have no alignment restrictions so i want the other players to be able to enjoy themselves without my alignment causing friction by being force to do great evils or be too upstanding in order to maintain my alignment.
- i would like "mostly" full caster progression so as not to nerf my spells overmuch.

so what suggestions can you throw at me?

[Bag_of_Holding]

Clerics generally do their best going with pure cleric (no BAB loss etc). If you really want to multiclass, Contemplative (Complete Divine) or Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB) work rather well although the latter loses 2 caster levels (and yet another 1 CL loss to qualify for it).

[Chronicled]

Clerics generally do their best going with pure cleric (no BAB loss etc).

This is incorrect, since Clerics have access to the spell Divine Power to take care of BAB loss. Getting good class features, especially domains, is well worth BAB loss.

Contemplative and Ruby Knight Vindicator are both great PrCs. Also top-notch are Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, and (to a lesser extent) Radiant Servant of Pelor (all from Complete Divine).

[Jack_Simth]

If you want to go for power....

You can qualify for Church Inquisitor after 3rd level (most PrC's require at least 5th). You lose a good Fort save and Turning progression, gain a few skill points, and several nifty abilities (including immunity to Charms, Compulsions, and Possession, with some resistance to illusions over the course of 10 levels, plus some less useful stuff), and a single (specific) bonus domain (Inquisition). And it's a full casting progression class, with d8 HD and 3/4th's BAB. Must be Lawful-good or Lawful-Neutral.

Contemplative is only 1/2 BAB, d6 HD, but it grants two bonus domains, and gives you some less important abilities (most of which, entering as a pure Cleric, you can get through your cleric spells). Requirements mean you can't take it before 10th level, though. Full casting progression, no alignment restrictions.

Divine Oracle is only 1/2 BAB, d6 HD, but it's got a pretty nice defensive suite of abilities, is full casting progression, and grants a specific bonus domain (Oracle). Can be entered after 5th.

Radiant Servant of Pelor is basically Cleric+. The only thing you lose is the d8 HD (drops to d6) and you get a lot of nifties (including a bonus domain). Can be entered after 6th level.

Sacred Exorcist just loses you the good Fort save, and grants some nifties, but they aren't all that powerful - most of it you can duplicate with Cleric spells anyway.

Stormlord trades turning for a lot of stuff related to storms - and they make Javelins a really nice weapon for you. Turning progression is all they lose out on. Requires 3 feats, though, so you'll need to play a human to start with all 10 levels of the class.

Earliest Entry to Ur-Priest (Fighter-1/Bard-4, or Savage Bard (UA variant Bard)-5) would give you access to 9th level spells immediately. Downside: You're Evil. Fairly cheesy PrC, and as it has it's own advancement, you could theoretically take just one or two levels of it and apply a different PrC to advance your Ur-Priest casting. You could, for instance, theoretically have a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8 - cast as a Bard-13 and an Ur-Priest-10. 9th level spells on the Divine side, with the possibility of spontaneous healing from the Bard side. Downsides: You're Chaotic Evil, and dripping cheese. Or you could do a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-5/Contemplative-5, and have a domain to go with your Ur-Priest spells (and get a second one at 16th, if you take another level of Contemplative). How does a once/day Time Stop sound (Trickery domain)? There's a downside, though; the Ur-Priest gets fewer spells per day than the standard progression - which means while you'll start out stronger than a pure-cleric, you'll have less endurance, and your power is ultimately stunted for doing this.

[Jarlax]

thanks for the suggestions everyone. you came through with exactly what i wanted to see, a PrC that i had not uncovered, the Ruby Knight. i will take your suggestions into account when i get down to rolling the PC.

i dont mind so much about losing out on too many spell caster levels or lower bab/hd/etc. since im just trying to avoid playing another cleric.

long story short, 15th level game where if a PC dies the players not rolling another one, hes out for the campaign. and out of the 8 people playing i will be the only one capable of healing, let alone resurrections. so while i might be taking one for the team by playing a cleric im avoiding playing just another cleric.

[Hal]

long story short, 15th level game where if a PC dies the players not rolling another one, hes out for the campaign. and out of the 8 people playing i will be the only one capable of healing, let alone resurrections. so while i might be taking one for the team by playing a cleric im avoiding playing just another cleric.

Jebus, who's your GM, Jack Chick?

[Starsinger]

Jebus, who's your GM, Jack Chick?

Blackleaf! NO!

[Eldariel]

thanks for the suggestions everyone. you came through with exactly what i wanted to see, a PrC that i had not uncovered, the Ruby Knight. i will take your suggestions into account when i get down to rolling the PC.

i dont mind so much about losing out on too many spell caster levels or lower bab/hd/etc. since im just trying to avoid playing another cleric.

long story short, 15th level game where if a PC dies the players not rolling another one, hes out for the campaign. and out of the 8 people playing i will be the only one capable of healing, let alone resurrections. so while i might be taking one for the team by playing a cleric im avoiding playing just another cleric.

Ruby Knight WINdicator is indeed an awesome PrC; while you lose few caster levels, Divine Impetus is just insane (extra Swift Actions? Yes, please!) and you get great martial skills (along with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and White Raven, a great variety - oh, and Stone Dragon for Mountain Tombstone Strike) and skillpoints that increase your longterm efficiency, power in Dead Magic Zones and overall versatility greatly. Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/X 5 (where X doesn't lose caster levels) works out just fine.

Oh yeah, to add to the list of potential Cleric Prestige Classes, I'm personally quite fond of Ruathar (Races of the Wild); while the flavour baggage is heavy, the class is great (you get one MWP of: Rapier/Longbow/Longsword/Shortbow, generally Longbow, a handy item (probably the bow you took proficiency for), low-light vision, bonuses to Spot, Listen and Search and most importantly, a bunch of hard-to-acquire-for-Cleric class skills many of which are keyed off Wisdom in Spot, Listen and Survival - also, both Move Silently and Hide are in class opening doors for a sneaky Cleric) and really, I wouldn't mind being an Elf-friend. Of course, it's only a 3-level Prestige, but especially with fractional BAB, those 3 levels tend to be worth it especially since it's full casting.

[Chronicled]

Jebus, who's your GM, Jack Chick?

Ha! My first campaign had the "you die, you're done" clause too. And no multiclassing or PrCing; and except for a couple players who got to use PH2 classes (bad idea), only PHB allowed. And we never got high enough for Raise Dead to be a possibility. Heck, we were lucky to have a magic item at level 6... and my cleric was in regular Splint Mail the whole campaign since he couldn't afford any better.

[Chronos]

and out of the 8 people playing i will be the only one capable of healing, let alone resurrections.

Nobody with Use Magic Device, even? The resurrection spells are good candidates for scrolls, anyway, since you don't want to prepare them every day, and then hopefully have no use for them. Plus, you want someone to be able to bail you out if, gods forbid, you happen to be the one who dies.

Also, while you're at it, scribe a few scrolls of Heal, Break Enchantment, Restoration, and the like, in case you get stoned/feebled/drained/etc. If you have any wizards in the party, you don't even need to blow a feat on Scribe Scroll, since you can cooperate with the wizards to make them.

[Paul H]

Hi

If it's Cleric spells you're after, then Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 (I know, it's 16 levels). Full spell progression, access to all Warmage & Cleric spells, Domain spells & powers of Air, Good & Law. All as a spont caster.

Downside - no Turn Undead for those nifty Divine metamagic feats, only D6 HP, plus only able to wear Med armour (and that with Battle Caster feat).

Upside - best spont caster in game(?), add Edge/Extra Edge to all those Cleric damage spells, plus all those destructive Warmage spells. Can grow wings, Air Domain powers vs Air & Earth Elementals.

Not for the faint-hearted, and you really need to know your spells. Nothing worse than waiting mins in middle of combat for someone trying to decide what to cast, as they go through a massive spell list. (In this casre two)!

Cheers
Paul H

[Paul H]

Hi

Just a quick thought - it's the Domains you choose that define your Cleric.

Personal choices are Llirr, with Magic & Travel Domains, & Ffarlaghn, with Celerity & Travel Domains.

Note: Llir's Fav. Wpn is Rapier, so Spiritual Wpn crits 18-20 x2 damage.

The Lir build allows you to use magic items as a Wizard of half your level, (ID Item 2nd lvl Domain spell with NO arcane components), & Travel's got Fly, Dim Door, etc. Who needs Fire Domain when you can use Wand Fireballs?

The other build has Travel, but Celerity grants Blur, Haste etc. Good Party Buffer, highly mobile, etc.

Will try to post a build tomorrow.

Cheers
Paul H

[Jack_Simth]

Hi

If it's Cleric spells you're after, then Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 (I know, it's 16 levels). Full spell progression

Sorta. The table says it loses four full caster levels - the text does not. Technically, text trumps table (it's the first thing listed in the errata!), however, there's several other PrC's in the same book with the same discrepancy... and all the levels where the Rainbow Servant loses caster levels (on the table, anyway) are the same levels where the Rainbow Servant gains nifties.

Technically, by the errata, it's a full progression PrC. That is, however, decidedly unbalanced, and very likely not the actual intent of whoever wrote up the PrC.

, access to all Warmage & Cleric spells, Domain spells & powers of Air, Good & Law. All as a spont caster.

Downside - no Turn Undead for those nifty Divine metamagic feats, only D6 HP, plus only able to wear Med armour (and that with Battle Caster feat).

Upside - best spont caster in game(?),

Try replacing Warmage with Beguiler. Better skill base, more useful base spell list, and class features that let you bypass most of your restrictions.

add Edge/Extra Edge to all those Cleric damage spells, plus all those destructive Warmage spells. Can grow wings, Air Domain powers vs Air & Earth Elementals.

Eh, by the time you get the Wings, Air Walk takes care of most of it.

Not for the faint-hearted, and you really need to know your spells. Nothing worse than waiting mins in middle of combat for someone trying to decide what to cast, as they go through a massive spell list. (In this casre two)!

Simple solution - have the DM use a timer. A nice, simple, 1 minute timer works wonders.

Cheers
Paul H

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A couple of things about Rainbow Servant:

1) There's a HUGE debate about whether or not you loose 4 caster levels, depending on how you interpret it, so be prepared for dealing with arguments and accusations of cheeze

2) Why bother when you can pick up two feats which duplicate the most important parts? Spontanious Healer (C.Div, requires 4 ranks in Knowledge: Religion and any non-evil alignment, lets you spontaniously cast cure spells as a good cleric), and Arcane Disciple (Add a domain to your spells known list, pick up one that gets a lot of 'fix-it' spells), and you're golden.

3) Beguiler works better than Warmage. Warmage is pretty much a blasty, wheras Beguiler is more of a caster rogue who gets 9th level spells, mostly in illusion and enchantment, in exchange for sneak attack progression. Also gets a few free metamagic feats (still and silent spell).

[Jarlax]

Jebus, who's your GM, Jack Chick?

lol, its more like getting to do something that is really radically different. in this case we have a rotating roster of up to 12 players in the store each week. so once the party is dropped to 4 or so players i wont be hard for everyone who is dead to form up a second group to play whatever.

this means that a 1PC only system, while harsh. is not excluding people from actually playing D&D until the campaign is over.

i looks like my PC is going to be a Cleric/Contemplative of Asmodeus ill take the Baator, Evil and Diabolic Domains and then pick up trickery at 16. that will give me the power to see perfectly in any darkness, access to the hellfire spells (which are a radius with untpyed damage, no saving throw and no spell resistance) and the ability to cast evil spells at +1 caster level. then time stop 1/day.

the rest is Fluff, starting with his glammered full plate in the form of traditional attire of the followers of the lord of devils (a black suit and red tie)

[Chronicled]

lol, its more like getting to do something that is really radically different. in this case we have a rotating roster of up to 12 players in the store each week. so once the party is dropped to 4 or so players i wont be hard for everyone who is dead to form up a second group to play whatever.

this means that a 1PC only system, while harsh. is not excluding people from actually playing D&D until the campaign is over.

i looks like my PC is going to be a Cleric/Contemplative of Asmodeus ill take the Baator, Evil and Diabolic Domains and then pick up trickery at 16. that will give me the power to see perfectly in any darkness, access to the hellfire spells (which are a radius with untpyed damage, no saving throw and no spell resistance) and the ability to cast evil spells at +1 caster level. then time stop 1/day.

the rest is Fluff, starting with his glammered full plate in the form of traditional attire of the followers of the lord of devils (a black suit and red tie)

I strongly recommend taking the Cleric alternate class feature Domain Spontaneity from PH2. Spontaneous Inflict spells are hardly worth your time--wouldn't spontaneous Time Stops be a lot more fun?

[Chronos]

Technically, by the errata, it's a full progression PrC. That is, however, decidedly unbalanced, and very likely not the actual intent of whoever wrote up the PrC.

More importantly, it's probably not the interpretation your DM is going to use, either. If your DM does allow Rainbow Servant as a full-progression class, then sure, take it, but it's definitely something you want to ask about before hand, rather than just taking it and then whining "But the text trumps the table! Why can't you just follow the rules?" when he says "no".

[Paul H]

Hi

Chronos - I totally agree. As a (sometimes) GM myself, I use the same rules for NPC's as the players. Personally I'd take another character (Clr 5/Stormlord 10)? with me in case/when the GM says "NO......"!

As to the poster's original question - the best answer is what they want the Cleric to do? If it's Divine Combat then Druid 13/Master Many Forms 2, or Druid 5/Master Many Forms 10 are both powerful builds.

The first could be a powerful spellcaster wandering round in Firbolg form, the latter possibly a 15HD Dragon, (with limited abilities), and some Druid spells.

Cheers
Paul H

[Telonius]

Loremaster might not be the most intuitive choice for a PrC, but if you happen to be running a Cloistered Cleric it's a sensible one (at least per flavor) to take. If your build already has a bunch of Metamagic or Item Creation feats, you really don't lose anything from taking the PrC. (You get back that Skill Focus with the Applicable Knowledge secret).

[Chronos]

Loremaster might not be the most intuitive choice for a PrC, but if you happen to be running a Cloistered Cleric it's a sensible one (at least per flavor) to take. If your build already has a bunch of Metamagic or Item Creation feats, you really don't lose anything from taking the PrC. (You get back that Skill Focus with the Applicable Knowledge secret).

Eh, not really. I'm a big fan of Loremaster for wizards, and it's nearly as easy for a Cloistered Cleric to qualify for it as for a wizard, but as a CC, you lose more than you gain. The base class already has the Lore ability, and more skill points than the PrC. The feat secret just replaces the Skill Focus prereq, as you said, and none of the other class features are all that great.

[Eldariel]

Also, you lose a size of Hit Die (effectively, -2 Con) and high Fort progression (again, effectively -X Con). Cloistered Cleric is really good at what it does; usually you shouldn't be multiclassing away from it, except to acquire skills the core class doesn't have (Factotum, Ruathar, etc. are decent options; Ruathar if you don't want to lose caster levels, Factotum otherwise).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm surprised that Dweomerkeeper hasn't been suggested yet. If you can take Magical Training from PGtF you won't even have to multiclass to qualify for it. The Cloistered Cleric variant from UA would probably be more fitting for that type of character than the PHB Cleric.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm surprised that Dweomerkeeper hasn't been suggested yet. If you can take Magical Training from PGtF you won't even have to multiclass to qualify for it. The Cloistered Cleric variant from UA would probably be more fitting for that type of character than the PHB Cleric.

Hmm... requires the Magic domain... obtainable via Contemplative...

A human Savage Bard-5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge-3 / Contemplative-1 / Dweomerkeeper-4 would cast as a Savage Bard-8, Ur-Priest-10 (caster level of either 12 or 14, before Practiced Spellcaster, depending on DM ruling), would have two spells in the mantle (at 8th and 9th level, potentially!), Supernatural Spell 1/day, and Arcane Sight at will...

Quit that! Stinky Cheese! Bad Me! No Cookie!

Seriously, though, the PrC isn't particularly well thought out from a balance perspective (but then, neither is Ur-Priest and quite a few other PrC's in Complete Divine...); using the route you describe, it costs no spellcasting levels, loses Turning Progression, 1 hp/level (average difference between a d8 and a d6), a good Fort save, and a few points of BAB (3/4 vs 1/2) and in exchange makes a really, really strong caster - and casters are already some of the strongest classes in the game.

[Hyooz]

One of my favorite Clerics has been a Cleric/Master of Radiance/Walker in the Wastes. You are a cleric of the sun and desert. You don't lose much, caster level wise, and there's just loads of fun flavor there.

I got lucky with mine and played him in a gestalt campaign, so I got to add Soul Knife in the mix too.

[Chronos]

The usual cheese referenced for Dweomerkeeper is using the Supernatural Spell ability on something with costly components, such as Wish. Wish 1/day with no XP cost, in addition to all of my normal spellcasting? Yes please.

[Curmudgeon]

You haven't stated what you'd like the character to do other than healing. Do you want to fight also? Then maybe a Favored Soul is a better choice than Cleric. FSs get Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization with their deity's favored weapon. You could pick Kossuth, whose favored weapon is the spiked chain. Kinda cheesy, but strictly legit.

[Chronicled]

You haven't stated what you'd like the character to do other than healing. Do you want to fight also? Then maybe a Favored Soul is a better choice than Cleric. FSs get Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization with their deity's favored weapon. You could pick Kossuth, whose favored weapon is the spiked chain. Kinda cheesy, but strictly legit.

A Cleric is better at fighting than a Favored Soul. A Cleric is better at... everything, than a Favored Soul, really. A couple bonus feats do not a better class make.

(Not that I don't like Favored Souls, or think that they're weak. It's just that Cleric is so much better.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've found that one of the funnest and less like "just another cleric" is a melee Cleric of Zarus. Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10 is good for a basic melee build regardless of deity. Start with the War and Strength domains, gain the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains from your PrCs. Get Power Attack and Divine Metamagic: Persistent and even with only one Night Stick you're better at melee damage and tanking than any non-spellcaster, especially with Persistent Choose Destiny at 17. It even works in non-evil campaigns since you can maintain a LN alignment. Best of all, given the situation of your campaign, this character would probably only be willing to raise/res nontemplated humans. He would also probably restrict healing given as well, and other players may discover the hard way that just becuase you've got the cleric doesn't mean you're there to fix them.

[Curmudgeon]

A Cleric is better at fighting than a Favored Soul. A Cleric is better at... everything, than a Favored Soul, really. A couple bonus feats do not a better class make.

(Not that I don't like Favored Souls, or think that they're weak. It's just that Cleric is so much better.)

Well, it's more than a couple of bonus feats:

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
• Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
• Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

Weapon Specialization [General]

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.

Favored Souls get something that single-class Clerics can't have. Note that Kossuth doesn't have the War domain in his portfolio, and I don't know of any War deities that have spiked chain as their favored weapons. This means that a Cleric would have to spend general feats for the first two of these, and wouldn't be able to get the third feat at all.

Favored Souls can crank out more spells than Clerics, on demand, so they can have Divine Power whenever they need it -- not just the number of times that Clerics have prepared this particular spell. So I don't see how "A Cleric is better at fighting than a Favored Soul."

Leaving apart their miscellaneous other class abilities, FSs have better saves than Clerics. They don't turn undead, but that's generally a weak ability. So I'm curious. Are you alluding to Divine Metamagic here? Or are there two specific domains you think make a Cleric "so much better"?

[Eldariel]

Well, it's more than a couple of bonus feats:

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
• Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
• Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

Favored Souls get something that single-class Clerics can't have. Note that Kossuth doesn't have the War domain in his portfolio, and I don't know of any War deities that have spiked chain as their favored weapons. This means that a Cleric would have to spend general feats for the first two of these, and wouldn't be able to get the third feat at all.

Favored Souls can crank out more spells than Clerics, on demand, so they can have Divine Power whenever they need it -- not just the number of times that Clerics have prepared this particular spell. So I don't see how "A Cleric is better at fighting than a Favored Soul."

Well, the thing is, Weapon Focus and Specialization bonuses are quite minor. Specialisation does facilitate Melee Weapon Mastery though, which could be worth a feat weren't the class already featstarved with effects that affect its very functionality. Anyways, the problem is Favored Soul's limited choice in spells. That means you won't be able to Zilla like a Cleric while maintaining your overall versatility, combat casting and defensive casting abilities.

Also, your casting is derived off two stats making you much more MAD, which leads to Favored Soul actually not having significantly more spells per day than a Cleric. Further, Favored Soul has only one power source versus Cleric's three (spellcasting, whereas Cleric has spellcasting, Domains (and thus a huge spell selection, right up there with Wizard) and Turning - yes, you can Prestige for Turning and your high Charisma doesn't hurt at all there, but that's a few levels longer for the only advantages you've got over Cleric).

Turn Undead is one of the strongest abilities in the game thanks to DMM, DM and the chance of having an UD-heavy campaign where you may do actual turning too.

Leaving apart their miscellaneous other class abilities, FSs have better saves than Clerics. They don't turn undead, but that's generally a weak ability. So I'm curious. Are you alluding to Divine Metamagic here? Or are there two specific domains you think make a Cleric "so much better"?

Cleric is probably going to have a better Will-save than FS (thanks to Wis SAD), while FS is going to have the better Ref-save. Which would you rather pick, the save that protects you from death/possession or the save that allows you to conserve half a Heal per day? And really, Reflex-saves aren't that important; one heal spell is gonna fix up all the damage you didn't save and the Save-or-Sucks targeting Ref are rare.

Anyways, Cleric has the one-two-three punch of spellcasting, turning (read: Divine Metamagic, Divine Might, etc.) and domains (and thus many times larger spell selection, especially with Domain Spontanity) along with better Prestige Classes and easier qualifications to most, while Favored Soul has limited spellcasting, better save in the most trivial of the three and the ability to get a free EWP within a relevant timeframe. So yea, Favored Soul may have one extra feat. I think it's all fairly obvious. Oh yeah, and Favored Souls have one level slower spell progression. Don't ask me why, they'd still be worse than Clerics if it was even. This is the Sorcerer-dilemma all over again, except Sorcerers at least have Kobolds and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to make up for it. Favored Souls are just screwed overall.