[4e] Anyone else concerned about the ease of pushing, pulling, or sliding?

[Tormsskull]

Hey all,

One of my first "hrm" moments with 4e was when I saw how easy it was to push, pull, or slide enemies into dangerous terrain. On the one hand, I think battling on a narrow bridge over a pit of boiling lava is very cinematic and exciting. On the other hand, I think that any intelligent enemy who is simply trying to kill the PCs is going to try to knock them off the bridge as often as possible, and that could make a cinematic and exciting scene end badly.

Several classes have powers that move their enemies. And the defense against being pushed, slid, or pulled into a deep hole, or over the slide of a cliff? A saving throw. Basically a 50/50 chance.

Anyone else concerned about this and thinking about designing a way to resist being pushed, pulled, or slid?

[hamishspence]

Dwarfs get a way: its harder to force movement on one of them.

Terrain should not be more lethal than situation warrants: slider monster at low level + very deep pits is a Bad Idea.

Since DMG does not actually provide rules for lava (checked it), make your own, NOT 1 hit kill lava, especially not at low level. My baseline is Fire Titan lava rules: 4d6+6 + immobilized (save ends)

[Saph]

Not really concerned, because all the 4e modules I've played so far have no dangerous terrain of note.

Push/pull/slide has proven pretty weak in our games so far, because you can move the enemies a couple squares, but moving them a couple squares doesn't actually do anything.

- Saph

[lord_khaine]

well i guess the concern is then for those who dont uses prebuild modules, they apprently cant put anything resembling dangerous terrain into a encounter, without risking fast casulties because someone got showed into the bottomless pit.

[Frost]

I'm not concerned with the ease of moving other characters no. I'm concerned that the designers thought it was actually a useful ability worth anything at all.

It comes down to two things:

1) 90% of the time, you are fighting in a field, dungeon, ect. Push/pull/slide is 90% useless.

2) You are fighting over a deep bit/lava/by a cliff, it's a save or die, but the save is always 45% chance of failure.

So you have something that 90% of the time is crap, and 10% of the time is way overpowered. How is this a good idea?

However, I've basically just accepted that Ray of Frost plus force moves are the way to go. If you are facing a melee solo, you win. If you are facing multiples, you can (once you run out of decent powers and get trapped in the at-will slug fest) have someone (or two people) slide an enemy away and the Wizard hits them, over and over with Ray of Frost. meanwhile the other 2-3 gang up on someone else.

[Xuincherguixe]

While I do like the idea of pushing people into lava as a strategy, I think it shouldn't be easy.

House Rule in being able to grab ledges, or throw grappling hooks and the like?

[Tormsskull]

1) 90% of the time, you are fighting in a field, dungeon, ect. Push/pull/slide is 90% useless.

I would think it would be somewhat useful here for putting enemies into positon to grant combat advantage to others, or to put them in a position where they will be provoking Opportunity Attacks if they try to get to a squisher party member.

2) You are fighting over a deep bit/lava/by a cliff, it's a save or die, but the save is always 45% chance of failure.

Especially when there are multiple enemies and each one has a pushing ability. Just seems like there should be some other way of resisting it to me.

[MammonAzrael]

While it is cause for concern, it should be. If your players want to fight on a 5 foot ledge over a bottomless chasm, or in the middle of a volcano, they should expect the enemy to try to shove them off, and probably do the same themselves. Fighting in those conditions is enormously idiotic and dangerous, and should be treated as such. The only reason we see it so often in movies is precisely because it's so crazy and risky.

Personally, while I haven't been near any deadly cliffs with my players, there have been some traps, and some small pits, that have given the push/pull/slide mechanics some good fun use. (Though annoyingly, both my frontliners are Dwarves, so that takes away a lot of my options for moving them around.)

[Dan_Hemmens]

The other thing to remember is that dangerous terrain *shouldn't* be an insta-kill. Remember that Hit Points are an abstraction, so it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to get Shifted into a big pit of lava, take 2D10 damage, and effectively be left hanging onto the side.

[Awesomologist]

Push/Pull/Slide has a saving throw if you (or the monster) is pushed over an edge. Check out the Combat section in the PHB (At work, don't have mine at the ready).

Our party has learned to slide targets around. The fighter and rogue love to bunch up guys so that the mage can them in an AoE spell. In fact we had one moment where there were 3 monsters left, the rogue and the fighter went before the wizard so they asked him how much closer he needed the goblins together. It's a great way to spread out crowd control capabilities to all classes and encourages teamwork.
As the DM i like to do the same thing against them

[darkzucchini]

While I don't have a problem with being able to shift people (and I feel that is rather cool to be able to push people off cliffs and such, I like my games to be deadly and my PCs to play smart), I have a big problem with being able to move large creatures around easily. Powers like Mountain Breaking Blow and Staggering Smite can allow you to push an ancient dragon or the tarrasque around the battlefield, which I just feel is wrong.

[Worira]

well i guess the concern is then for those who dont uses prebuild modules, they apprently cant put anything resembling dangerous terrain into a encounter, without risking fast casulties because someone got showed into the bottomless pit.

Really? If you fight among bottomless pits, there's a chance you might fall into a bottomless pit? Seriously, I don't think I'd be misinterpreting you to say that your concern is that dangerous terrain is dangerous.

Now, I agree the save mechanic is questionable- why is it just as hard to push the feeble nonagenarian wizard into a hole as it is the battle-hardened young warrior?- But bottomless pits being dangerous? Why do you even have them if you don't expect someone to fall in?

[THAC0]

These movement things provide awesome tactical choices and decisions for both the party and the NPCs.

We've really enjoyed the mechanic thus far.

[Grynning]

The Athletics skill gives the DC to catch hold if you fall while climbing. Granted, nothing says you can use this when falling for other reasons, but I think I would allow it in the case of falling off of a cliff.

I would also likely allow an Acrobatics (balance) check in place of the saving throw to avoid falling in the first place.

The Save mechanic is one of the things I truly dislike about 4th edition. I find it far too random. I understand the reasoning - I think they decided that no matter how they scaled it, 10 or higher was going to be what you needed to roll, so why muck about with bonuses and DC's, but that kind of goes against the whole idea of the d20 mechanic. What if they said, "Well, if you're fighting stuff of your level, you should have about a 55% chance to hit, so we're just going to get rid of those pesky attack bonus and defense mechanics and just say you hit on a 10 or higher, ok?"

[Oracle_Hunter]

PHB 284 has rules for saving throws for being thrown off of cliffs. The DMG also warns you not to have first level characters fight on the edges of 80 foot cliffs. This is just another aspect of DMs paying more attention to encounter design.

But man, I love sliding. Aside from setting up the Rogue with insta-flanks (Boom, headshot!) and breaking up Hobgoblin skirmish lines, you can also use it to add some extra "awesome" to your fights.

You can now (by RAW!) knock people out windows, into lakes, through resetable traps, and under Da Crusher! Imagine the sort of fights you can have with kobolds in their special trap rooms? And being able to turn those traps against them?

Delicious

[Jerthanis]

Pushing and sliding is a vital tactical strategy that never existed to the same extent before. We all agree that Wizards should stay out of melee, but what happens when a lurker breaks away and gets up to the Wizard's face and starts hacking away? The rogue pushes him back over to the fighter, who can hopefully keep him locked down. Being surrounded hurts, and surrounding other people helps, so it seems like moving enemies around can really... help.

The worry about being pushed into dangerous terrain seems to boil down to, "Now that players and enemies can take advantage of terrain to a greater extent, a DM needs to pay attention to the terrain he includes to a greater extent than before."

I guess I'm just not worried about that.

edit: Wow, apparently I really like the word "Extent" *goes to buy a thesaurus*

[Grug]

Besides rogue flanks and wizard AoE, fighter's mark relies on shifting. A marked enemy that shifts, even a forced shift, triggers a free basic attack by the fighter. And again with fighter, moves like Tide of Iron are meant to get enemies away from your squishier friends.

[Tormsskull]

The worry about being pushed into dangerous terrain seems to boil down to, "Now that players and enemies can take advantage of terrain to a greater extent, a DM needs to pay attention to the terrain he includes to a greater extent than before."

I guess I'm just not worried about that.

I totally agree that the ability to move enemies around is huge as far as combat tactics go, and I think that part is cool.

As a DM I have always made use of different terrain to keep combat interesting. Elevation, flamable oil, spiked ground, heavy brush, thin ice, etc, etc. To me those parts of the combat map bring the combat to life.

However, I still think that pushing enemies (or enemies pushing PCs) into dangerous terrain is to easy. As an example:

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In the final battle of the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure, there is that portal to the shadowfell where the "thing" exists trying to grab people. Now, if someone knew of this creature, and simply pushed a person into the square, they are going to get grabbed up most likely.

The players would have no real reason to expect that anything out of the ordinary would happen (and regardless what the 4e books say, I think telling a player "By the way, if you move into that square you are going to be attacked by a mysterious enemy is dumb).

[Oracle_Hunter]

However, I still think that pushing enemies (or enemies pushing PCs) into dangerous terrain is to easy. As an example:

KotS Spoiler

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In the final battle of the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure, there is that portal to the shadowfell where the "thing" exists trying to grab people. Now, if someone knew of this creature, and simply pushed a person into the square, they are going to get grabbed up most likely.

The players would have no real reason to expect that anything out of the ordinary would happen (and regardless what the 4e books say, I think telling a player "By the way, if you move into that square you are going to be attacked by a mysterious enemy is dumb).

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Isn't there something at that spot, like a mysterious runed archway that crackles with arcane power? It's all about providing details for the PCs to give them a heads up without giving away the game.

[RTGoodman]

You can now (by RAW!) knock people out windows, into lakes, through resetable traps, and under Da Crusher! Imagine the sort of fights you can have with kobolds in their special trap rooms? And being able to turn those traps against them?

And it is a lot of fun. I just finished writing a kobold-based 1st level adventure, and one of the encounters is a couple pit traps and some Kobold Spikers from the Creature Incarnation online article who push people into traps and grant the traps combat advantage against those people.

[wodan46]

In a flat featureless plain, pushing/pulling/sliding is still useful if not critical. Controlling the enemy's position sets them up for Combat Advantage(especially for Strikers), Opportunity Attacks(especially for Defenders), and AOE attacks(especially for Controllers), while Leaders provide a supporting role as always. All roles have the ability to shift enemies around, and its really a critical part of the nature of 4e's tactics. Many of those dismissive of 2W+Mod encounter abilities that look the same don't understand the importance of deploying the position changing and status effects.

[Trog]

Seems better than standing in a line and beating on one another *shrug*

As an aside on bottomless pits and danger... correct me if I'm wrong but... isn't the BOTTOM of the pit the really, you know, dangerous part?

[Thrud]

Yeah, it is just another of those loopholes that will have to be covered up by good DMing. Just like all those horrible loopholes in 3rd ed. Or every other roleplaying game ever created. The fact that the way to cover this loophole up is actually stated in the DMG as 'make sure 1st levels nver fight on the edges of cliffs' worrys me a little. I tend to like city adventures, and more often than not there are fights on the tops of buildings and/or city walls. Apparently I wouldn't be able to do that until characters have enough hitpoints to survive a 20 or 30 foot fall (or up to 50 for some places on the city walls/towers) I have to admit, that is something that would irritate me to no end as a DM, but since I have no intention of using the system, it doesn't bother me much.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah, it is just another of those loopholes that will have to be covered up by good DMing. Just like all those horrible loopholes in 3rd ed. Or every other roleplaying game ever created. The fact that the way to cover this loophole up is actually stated in the DMG as 'make sure 1st levels nver fight on the edges of cliffs' worrys me a little. I tend to like city adventures, and more often than not there are fights on the tops of buildings and/or city walls. Apparently I wouldn't be able to do that until characters have enough hitpoints to survive a 20 or 30 foot fall (or up to 50 for some places on the city walls/towers) I have to admit, that is something that would irritate me to no end as a DM, but since I have no intention of using the system, it doesn't bother me much.

Falls do d10 per 10 feet. At first level, wizards have 10 HP + their Constitution score. First level characters can fight on top of second story buildings without being auto-killed. Furthermore, since everyone gets a Saving Throw to not go over, or take half damage if trained in Acrobatics, feel free to use these sort of battles even at first level.

Third story or higher buildings, perhaps you can wait a few levels, or be at ease that few NPCs have the sort of offensive shifting abilities that PCs do.

Seriously, you should try 4e. It really is a good system.

[Thrud]

Falls do d10 per 10 feet. At first level, wizards have 10 HP + their Constitution score. First level characters can fight on top of second story buildings without being auto-killed. Furthermore, since everyone gets a Saving Throw to not go over, or take half damage if trained in Acrobatics, feel free to use these sort of battles even at first level.

Third story or higher buildings, perhaps you can wait a few levels, or be at ease that few NPCs have the sort of offensive shifting abilities that PCs do.

Seriously, you should try 4e. It really is a good system.

Oh, don't get me wrong, this isn't a reason not to buy the system. I have lots of other reasons not to want to buy it. All I was trying to point out here is that lots of games have loophole problems, and all it takes is some decent DMing to fix em. Just because 4ed is all about game balance and homogenization of power levels doesn't mean it isn't going to have the same sorts of problems. It will. I guarantee it. Because what everyone seems to forget is that within 3rd ed PHB, DMG, and MM, there weren't all that many real issues that couldn't be dealt with easily by good DMing. It is once you start adding all the splatbooks that massive problems start to arise. The lack of multiclassing is going to help that a lot, but it still won't completely fix the problem. When there are that many powers floating around that provide the sort of battlefield control that they do, there are bound to be massive issues when they are combined in certain ways that the designers didn't allow for. And since 4ed is intending to have multiple sets of PHB's DMG's and MM's the problem will be compounded by all those CORE books, rather than by a few core books and lots of easily ignorable splatbooks.

Now that IS one of the reasons I won't be buying the game. I tend to dislike companies that intentionally leave things I enjoyed out of one set of 'core' books, intending to put them in a later set of 'core' books, forcing me to buy them if I want them. They have every right to make money at their game. They do NOT have every right to continue gouging over and over again on multiple new sets of core books. That is just being greedy.

[RTGoodman]

Now that IS one of the reasons I won't be buying the game. I tend to dislike companies that intentionally leave things I enjoyed out of one set of 'core' books, intending to put them in a later set of 'core' books, forcing me to buy them if I want them. They have every right to make money at their game. They do NOT have every right to continue gouging over and over again on multiple new sets of core books. That is just being greedy.

Well, they're having multiple PHBs only in the sense that there are going to be new "splatbooks" that have the PHB [#] name on them. You're not going to NEED them to play the game (though they might have particular classes/paragon paths/powers/whatever you might want, like any splatbook), any more than you need the 3.5 PHB II, DMG II, or MM II-V to play the game.


As far as making rooftop adventures, if you really wanted to have 1st level characters fight on 30+ ft buildings you could just add in trash piles and stuff like that that would reduce falling damage.

[Yakk]

The Bottomless Pit:
Usually, being pushed into dangerous terrain simply gives a character a save to fall prone adjacent to the terrain. This runs into problems when the terrain is so dangerous, it is a bottomless pit (or other instant-kill terrain).

When a creature is pushed into a Bottomless Pit, make a save as usual. If the save succeeds, the creature is prone at the edge. If the save fails, the creature takes damage equal to it's healing surge value (1/4 of max HP, or 1/2 of Bloodied). (Minions just die)

If this reduces the monster to 0 HP or less, it falls tumbling into doom. Otherwise, the monster is prone adjacent to the pit.

If this reduces a PC to 0 HP or less, they are awake, hanging over the edge, in a pit square. They make saves to die as normal, and if they die they let go. Other characters can help them back up via athletics checks or powers, but they themselves are helpless unless they roll a 20 on their save (or they choose to let go and fly).

Variations on this system can be used for burning Lava or Spheres of Annihilation. The essence is that being "thrown over" generations HP damage that abstractly reflects the creature recovering from the push.

[Thrud]

Well, they're having multiple PHBs only in the sense that there are going to be new "splatbooks" that have the PHB [#] name on them. You're not going to NEED them to play the game (though they might have particular classes/paragon paths/powers/whatever you might want, like any splatbook), any more than you need the 3.5 PHB II, DMG II, or MM II-V to play the game.


As far as making rooftop adventures, if you really wanted to have 1st level characters fight on 30+ ft buildings you could just add in trash piles and stuff like that that would reduce falling damage.

Except fot the fact that in interviews they talked about how they want everyone to understand that the later books will be Core rules, not simply splatbooks, and that they intentionally left some of the favorite monsters out of the MM and some of the favorite classes out of the PHB so that people would 'understand' that these later books were intended to be 'core' books.

I'll dig around for the link. I have it here somewhere, I think. It is one of the first things that really annoyed me about the system.

[LoopyZebra]

Except fot the fact that in interviews they talked about how they want everyone to understand that the later books will be Core rules, not simply splatbooks, and that they intentionally left some of the favorite monsters out of the MM and some of the favorite classes out of the PHB so that people would 'understand' that these later books were intended to be 'core' books.

I'll dig around for the link. I have it here somewhere, I think. It is one of the first things that really annoyed me about the system.

Perhaps, but greedy or no, the system IS playable with just the PHB, DMG, and MM. That they want other people to accept that their books are considered official is mostly a marketing strategy, and will only really affect your game if you play at RPGA events or conventions (and even then, your character could still be PHB only). A problem with their marketing, or salesmanship, or whatever, is a problem with that, not the system.

[Fhaolan]

Falls do d10 per 10 feet. At first level, wizards have 10 HP + their Constitution score. First level characters can fight on top of second story buildings without being auto-killed. Furthermore, since everyone gets a Saving Throw to not go over, or take half damage if trained in Acrobatics, feel free to use these sort of battles even at first level.

Third story or higher buildings, perhaps you can wait a few levels, or be at ease that few NPCs have the sort of offensive shifting abilities that PCs do.

Seriously, you should try 4e. It really is a good system.

Sorry, but that actually made me *less* likely to try 4e. I was all good about the pushing and pulling and sliding and what not, and using the terrain intelligently as part of the combat. That made sense to me, and I approve. However, now I find out that first level characters can fall *two stories* on their heads (max damage), just get up, brush themselves off and go their merry way?

There's heroic, and then there's cartoony, and that just pushed the line right into Roadrunner territory.