Tying people up in 4e

[Daylightmoon]

While killing kobolds my group was able to subdue half of them without killing them. A couple of the pcs decided that their characters wouldn't kill these enemies that were surrendering (one of the pcs has a soft spot for kobolds). So we decided to tie them up and take them to the Lord for punishment. But... we couldn't find any place in the books that said anything about restraining people or creatures. It talks about how to escape restraints but that's all we could find. We ended up using thievery skill and DM set a dc but still found the problem a little odd. Couldn't even find manacles anywhere. Has anyone else had this issue or perhaps know where in the books it can be found?

[Oracle_Hunter]

While killing kobolds my group was able to subdue half of them without killing them. A couple of the pcs decided that their characters wouldn't kill these enemies that were surrendering (one of the pcs has a soft spot for kobolds). So we decided to tie them up and take them to the Lord for punishment. But... we couldn't find any place in the books that said anything about restraining people or creatures. It talks about how to escape restraints but that's all we could find. We ended up using thievery skill and DM set a dc but still found the problem a little odd. Couldn't even find manacles anywhere. Has anyone else had this issue or perhaps know where in the books it can be found?

It's not in the books. Use the suggested DC on PHB 181 (which is DC 20) and the DM can modify them using the suggested DCs on DMG 42.

If you think it's very important to know whether your PCs have tied good knots, I would suggest a "Take 10" Thievery Check which can be opposed by Escape Checks every 5 minutes.

[Matthew]

Wow, Justin Bacon was right...

You don't need to use any skill if you don't want to. The Kobolds can just be 'tied up' and an appropriate DC assigned if the DM wants them to have a random chance of escape.

Failing that, do as Oracle Hunter suggests, or alternatively, use a normal attribute check based on dexterity or intelligence.

[Tormsskull]

Wow, Justin Bacon was right...

Yeah, but who takes him seriously with that avatar of his?

[Matthew]

Yeah, but who takes him seriously with that avatar of his?

I wouldn't know anything about that; I only know he wrote it because Nagora quoted him.

[Tengu]

Wow, Justin Bacon was right...

Which post are you referring to? Because I'm too lazy occupied to check it myself.

[Matthew]

Which post are you referring to? Because I'm too lazy occupied to check it myself.

Now you're asking...

Luckily I happen to have a direct link

[Grug]

Use the rules for traps. The kobolds are helpless until they succeed at a certain skill check, whether strength to burst the ropes, dex to wiggle out, bluff to talk the PCs into letting them go, thievery to grab something sharp and cut their way loose.

Trap is the way to go.

[Pinnacle]

Make it an opposed check. The result the PCs get is the DC for the kobolds to escape, if they try to do so.

[Jarlax]

yup i just houseruled in a strength based ability check for tying ropes (based on the idea that with no skill at performing knots the tighter the knot the better) and just had my kobolds make an escape check against the DC

in future i will probably give a circumstance bonus to the person tying someone up based on what material they are using to make the knots.

[Dervag]

I dunno. Tying really tight knots (of the sort that only a really strong guy could tie) on a creature like a kobold is a good way to end up with quadruple amputee kobolds. Not good.

Also, tightening a knot, if done wrong, may not keep it tightened. I know; it happens to my shoes all the time.

I'd use dexterity. Tying knots is a very common medieval skill because it's one of the few ways to fasten anything. So what really matters is how good the guy is with his fingers- classically regarded as a component of dexterity.

[Mewtarthio]

I dunno. Tying really tight knots (of the sort that only a really strong guy could tie) on a creature like a kobold is a good way to end up with quadruple amputee kobolds. Not good.

Hey, at least you don't need to keep them tied up anymore!

[JaxGaret]

What Oracle Hunter stated wasn't a "suggestion", it's the RAW:

Escape from Restraints
Make an Acrobatics check to slip free of restraints.

Escape from Restraints: 5 minutes.
DC: Base DC 20. The DC is determined by the type of restraint and its quality, as set by the DM.
Fast Escape: You can make an escape attempt as a standard action, but the DC increases by 10.
Success: You slip free of a physical restraint.
Failure: You can try again only if someone else aids you.

Since DC 20 is a Moderate skill check (15 for Moderate + 5 for being a skill check) for a 1st level character, it would be reasonable to say that restraints set by higher level characters correspond to the Moderate column on page 42 of the DMG: for example, the base DC to escape being tied up by a 16th level adventurer is 29.

Then you add in difficulty modifiers for better quality restraints, as per the PHB.

[Oracle_Hunter]

What Oracle Hunter stated wasn't a "suggestion", it's the RAW:

Oh man, "It's not just a suggestion, it's the RAW" is an excellent paraphrase. I'll have to find a way to use it again

[nagora]

While killing kobolds my group was able to subdue half of them without killing them. A couple of the pcs decided that their characters wouldn't kill these enemies that were surrendering (one of the pcs has a soft spot for kobolds). So we decided to tie them up and take them to the Lord for punishment. But... we couldn't find any place in the books that said anything about restraining people or creatures. It talks about how to escape restraints but that's all we could find. We ended up using thievery skill and DM set a dc but still found the problem a little odd. Couldn't even find manacles anywhere. Has anyone else had this issue or perhaps know where in the books it can be found?

Player: We tie the remaining kobolds up.
DM: How?
Player: We use the rope and the thief does the tying, because she knows about things like that what with being a thief.
DM: Okay.

Tah-dah!

The rules quoted by JaxGaret are just a typically over-complicated way of trying to apply common sense. "DC is determined by the DM" boils down to "The DM just decides what happens" but with the security blanket of a die roll to slow play down and allow a chance that something unbelievable or unfair happens as well.

[Matthew]

What Oracle Hunter stated wasn't a "suggestion", it's the RAW:

Uh, yeah, the first part of what Oracle said is RAW (nobody is disputing that)...

It's not in the books. Use the suggested DC on PHB 181 (which is DC 20) and the DM can modify them using the suggested DCs on DMG 42.

If you think it's very important to know whether your PCs have tied good knots, I would suggest a "Take 10" Thievery Check which can be opposed by Escape Checks every 5 minutes.

...the second part was clearly a suggestion, though, which is what we're now discussing [i.e. what do if you want to randomly determine how good the knots are].

[Talic]

Player: We tie the remaining kobolds up.
DM: How?
Player: We use the rope and the thief does the tying, because she knows about things like that what with being a thief.
DM: Okay.

Tah-dah!

The rules quoted by JaxGaret are just a typically over-complicated way of trying to apply common sense. "DC is determined by the DM" boils down to "The DM just decides what happens" but with the security blanket of a die roll to slow play down and allow a chance that something unbelievable or unfair happens as well.

Because life is totally fair, right?

The one you listed seems like an oversimplified way to let the PC's win. That's ok, as this seems to be a recurring theme with 4e. Don't earn your victory, let the DM hand it to you, on a platter, with a juice drink, crackers, and a little trophy, not too much different from the one every player who plays pee-wee teeball gets... Because everyone's a winner, as it should be.

Now, if the kobolds had found some way to miraculously do this to the players (which, I imagine, with the 4e rules I've seen, would involve a fair amount of DM fiat), would they be denied a roll? If not, then why do it for the monsters?

The point of games reliant on the imagination is that anything is possible. Even the unbelievable. Even the unfair. Even a kobold slipping out of a poorly tied knot.

Why curtail that, when you don't have to?

The whole idea of D&D is that you're not winning. You're not losing. You're playing, and the journey is the goal, not the destination. Let the journey go where it may. Peter Pan had it right. Sometimes death is a great adventure.

[Attilargh]

Out of curiousity, why did third edition use Dexterity for Use Rope? Now that I think about it, it doesn't feel very intuitive. After all, tying knots is a fairly simple business, the hard part is learning the knots to begin with. I think I will personally use Dungeoneering if I ever happen to need to know the quality of a knot tied by the PCs in 4E.

[marjan]

Out of curiousity, why did third edition use Dexterity for Use Rope? Now that I think about it, it doesn't feel very intuitive. After all, tying knots is a fairly simple business, the hard part is learning the knots to begin with. I think I will personally use Dungeoneering if I ever happen to need to know the quality of a knot tied by the PCs in 4E.

Dexterity represents manual prowess, so that is why it is used. Skill ranks represent learning the knots.

[TheCheshireHat]

I'd do it like this: player rolls d20+dungeoneering or thievery. Thats the DC the kobolds have to beat to escape. If you want to add another layer of complexity, every time the kobold fails his check by less than say, 5, the DC goes down by one. Of course, the PC's are likely to notice the kobold stuggling against its bonds and smack it on the head for its trouble

A fairly simple, altough not exactly standard way of going about it.



*EDIT* for spelling

[Charity]

But what shall I do if I want to restring my kite, or moor my boat or tie my shoelaces?
I need a comprehensive list of knots and hitches with associated DC's cross referenced with appropriate usages.

[SamTheCleric]

Also of note: It mentions in the PHB that when you drop someone to 0 hit points, you can choose to knock them out over kill them. Its a footnote somewhere and a lot of people miss it.

Good way to capture prisoners.

[Chronos]

Out of curiousity, why did third edition use Dexterity for Use Rope? Now that I think about it, it doesn't feel very intuitive. After all, tying knots is a fairly simple business, the hard part is learning the knots to begin with. I think I will personally use Dungeoneering if I ever happen to need to know the quality of a knot tied by the PCs in 4E.

The fact that tying knots is a simple business is reflected in the fact that most of the DCs are low. But just for comparison, let's look at one of the highest DCs listed for Use Rope: 15 -- Tie a rope around yourself one-handed.

Now, I know the method for doing this. I've seen it done by many of my friends, several of whom can do it consistently (by taking 10 on the check), and I understand the procedure. And I'm a fairly smart fellow. But when I try to tie a one-handed bowline around myself, I fail more often than not. I'm smart enough, I know the principles of it, and I probably have a rank or two in Use Rope. But I'm just not very coordinated, so even though I know what I'm supposed to do, I'm not very good at doing it.

[Attilargh]

I... Can't decide if successfully simulating that is a merit for a gaming system or not.

Still, that's not a bad explanation. Thanks.

[nagora]

Because life is totally fair, right?

The one you listed seems like an oversimplified way to let the PC's win. That's ok, as this seems to be a recurring theme with 4e. Don't earn your victory, let the DM hand it to you, on a platter,

BS. The players took care to do it right, they didn't just go "we tie the kobolds up" and leave it at that, they showed that they knew one of the party would be better than the others. This is not breaking into Fort Knox here; we don't need a 12 page plan with diagrams.

with a juice drink, crackers, and a little trophy, not too much different from the one every player who plays pee-wee teeball gets... Because everyone's a winner, as it should be.

You've been reading my scripts.

Now, if the kobolds had found some way to miraculously do this to the players (which, I imagine, with the 4e rules I've seen, would involve a fair amount of DM fiat), would they be denied a roll?

Speaking as a 1e DM, yes I apply the same rules of fiat to NPCs and PCs alike.

The point of games reliant on the imagination is that anything is possible. Even the unbelievable. Even the unfair. Even a kobold slipping out of a poorly tied knot.

As DM I have, IMO, no reason to say that the knot was badly tied. If, later, the kobolds are left unattended or can get access to a sharp flint or something, then they can try to escape. Just as the PCs could. But if a thief takes care to tie knots, I don't believe that I'm being fair to the players if I allow that knot to mysteriously just untie itself just because of a die roll.

The whole idea of D&D is that you're not winning. You're not losing. You're playing, and the journey is the goal, not the destination. Let the journey go where it may. Peter Pan had it right. Sometimes death is a great adventure.

Sure, but arbitrarily undoing well thought-out plans by PCs or NPCs is unreasonable, at least in my DMing style. If that rope comes undone, then I need to have a reason for it; rolling dice for it is a cop-out as a DM.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Sure, but arbitrarily undoing well thought-out plans by PCs or NPCs is unreasonable, at least in my DMing style. If that rope comes undone, then I need to have a reason for it; rolling dice for it is a cop-out as a DM.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that rolling dice was a cop out. Sometimes things really are just up to chance. Even OD&D accepts the idea that some things can be uncertain (and modeled by the DM assigning them a probability).

A percentage chance of the knot coming undone, yes that would be unfair. A percentage chance of the Kobolds wriggling out of the ropes? I don't see what's wrong with that.

To put it another way, if the DM can say "X happens" or "Y happens" according to his whim or his reasonable assessment, why can he not also say "X and Y have equal probabilities of happening"?

[nagora]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that rolling dice was a cop out. Sometimes things really are just up to chance. Even OD&D accepts the idea that some things can be uncertain (and modeled by the DM assigning them a probability).

A percentage chance of the knot coming undone, yes that would be unfair. A percentage chance of the Kobolds wriggling out of the ropes? I don't see what's wrong with that.

To put it another way, if the DM can say "X happens" or "Y happens" according to his whim or his reasonable assessment, why can he not also say "X and Y have equal probabilities of happening"?

He can, but in the case of a party who elects a particular member with a relevent background to do the action I think it's unfair to just go "ah, well, didn't work". It's like asking a ranger to roll to climb a tree. I might ask a magic user with the same ability scores to roll, but I'm being unreasonable when I ask the ranger to do it, I feel.

Unless some unusual circumstances arise, I think a thief's binding should stand without a need to roll. I'd probably give a "bend bars" roll if the situation seemed one that would allow it.

[Dan_Hemmens]

He can, but in the case of a party who elects a particular member with a relevent background to do the action I think it's unfair to just go "ah, well, didn't work". It's like asking a ranger to roll to climb a tree. I might ask a magic user with the same ability scores to roll, but I'm being unreasonable when I ask the ranger to do it, I feel.

Unless some unusual circumstances arise, I think a thief's binding should stand without a need to roll. I'd probably give a "bend bars" roll if the situation seemed one that would allow it.

Fair enough, I was just checking that you weren't saying that rolling dice in general was a copout.

[Yakk]

Take 10. Dex or Int. Apply any skill you can BS as being appropriate. +10 for the Rope.

Attempting to break free, while someone is watching and there isn't much time, is very difficult. More time, more privacy means it is relatively easy to get free.

Assuming the PCs are paying attention, the Kobolds are just going to stay tied up.

Remember: NPCs reduced to 0 HP are defeated enemies. They are going to make their lives a bit harder by capturing them, but there isn't really a reason to make it that much harder.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Take 10. Dex or Int. Apply any skill you can BS as being appropriate. +10 for the Rope.

I've been playing too much Dark Heresy, I was reading that and thinking "BS being appropriate ... why is Ballistic Skill appropriate for tying people up?"