[4e] Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise

[Blackdrop]

Ah! I love using T.V./Movie quotes for thread titles. This one works especially well for the this thread.

As some of you may know from playing, reading, or talking about 4e, all of the classes have had overhaul, ranging from minor (Paladin) to major (Wizard or Fighter). With such changes in place, it makes me wonder how the soon-to-be returning favorites (namely the barbarian, bard, druid, monk, and psion) will be changed. (It upsets me that the sorcerer ain't coming back. Though if any one wants to work with me to create a balanced 4e sorcerer, drop me a wave.)

Anyhoo, I guess my point is what do you think we can expect to see when Wizard re-releases our favorite classes?

[ShadowSiege]

(It upsets me that the sorcerer ain't coming back. Though if any one wants to work with me to create a balanced 4e sorcerer, drop me a wave.)

Anyhoo, I guess my point is what do you think we can expect to see when Wizard re-releases our favorite classes?

AFAIK, sorcerer will make a comeback. As for the other classes, barbarians will probably have an encounter power that functions as a rage and a bunch of nature-y melee powers.

[ghost_warlock]

Barbarian rage in 4e could be as simple as a class ability that grants an extra action point that must be used that encounter when the character becomes bloodied.

Actually, I'm almost expecting that to be what WotC does for rage.

[Rockphed]

I expect rage to be a stance power of some sort. There will probably be several different ones that give varying bonuses. Be it extra speed and damage during charges, or extra damage with two handed weapons, there are plenty of things barbarians can do.

Bards are pretty clearly pegged as Arcane Leaders, and I expect monks to either be Divine Strikers, Ki Strikers or Ki Defenders.

The Druid has 2 possiblilities, either controller, or shapeshifter(whatever role that would put them in.) I hope they take the Druid the controller direction and give it powers like Wall of fire, flaming sphere, flame strike, call lightning, and a few wind and cold based powers.

Psions were like wizards, right? I am pretty sure they will have powers similar to the wizard.

My biggest hope is that WotC publishes a second controller quickly so we can see what about the wizard is part of being a controller, and what is part of being a wizard.

[JaxGaret]

Sorcerers will be released, I surmise their power source will be Elemental, meaning that they draw on primordial chaos, which means that they will be similar to wild mages.

I expect rage to be a stance power of some sort. There will probably be several different ones that give varying bonuses. Be it extra speed and damage during charges, or extra damage with two handed weapons, there are plenty of things barbarians can do.

That sounds about right to me.

Bards are pretty clearly pegged as Arcane Leaders, and I expect monks to either be Divine Strikers, Ki Strikers or Ki Defenders.

That's absolutely how I have had Bards pegged from day 1. Monks will probably be Ki Strikers.

The Druid has 2 possiblilities, either controller, or shapeshifter(whatever role that would put them in.) I hope they take the Druid the controller direction and give it powers like Wall of fire, flaming sphere, flame strike, call lightning, and a few wind and cold based powers.

Those are two very different directions to take the Druid in; I think I've read that the Druid will involve shapeshifting as its primary focus. It might even be the Primal Leader (Primal being the power source of Druids and Barbarians).

Psions were like wizards, right? I am pretty sure they will have powers similar to the wizard.

Psions were more similar to Sorcerers. In 4e they will be mind-control focused Controllers (enchantment).

My biggest hope is that WotC publishes a second controller quickly so we can see what about the wizard is part of being a controller, and what is part of being a wizard.

Agreed.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I actually doubt that Bards will be "Arcane" - I'd have thought that the "arcane" power source would have been fully described in the PHB.

Although, as I think I've pointed out before, I actually don't see what difference the Power Sources make anyway...

[JaxGaret]

I actually doubt that Bards will be "Arcane" - I'd have thought that the "arcane" power source would have been fully described in the PHB.

You think there's only ever going to be two Arcane classes?

It's my assumption that the Martial Power splatbook will have more martial base classes, and the same would go for the Arcane Power (or any X Power) splatbook. If not more than that.

Although, as I think I've pointed out before, I actually don't see what difference the Power Sources make anyway...

One common difference is that the divine classes so far both get the Channel Divinity class feature and use Holy Symbols for Implements.

Each power source has certain mechanical tendencies that it gravitates towards, also - Martial powers are much more likely to be Str or Dex vs. AC, for example.

[SamTheCleric]

They have already said in a few places that Bard will be an Arcane Leader... the Arcane Defender, Swordmage, comes out with the Forgotten Realms book.

They have listed the other power sources in the PHB (around... p 58, iirc). Ki, Primal, Elemental, Psionic and Shadow.

Monks are confirmed as using Ki.
Psions are confirmed as using Psionic (duh!)
Barbarians and Druids will be Primal.

[Blackdrop]

Anybody else think that Necromancer will be a class?

[SamTheCleric]

Anybody else think that Necromancer will be a class?

I could see them being a Shadow Controller, actually.

[Indon]

(It upsets me that the sorcerer ain't coming back. Though if any one wants to work with me to create a balanced 4e sorcerer, drop me a wave.)

Wizards has a Sorceror kit on their website, but I can make one up off-hand.

Sorceror Kit:
-Start with Wizard.

-Remove Ritual Casting as a class feature.
-Remove Arcana as an automatic trained skill, place on skill list. Grant 4 trained skills.
-Grant light armor proficiency (or hide or scale or whatever it's called).

Select powers that do damage.

[Blackdrop]

I was talking about class completely independent from the wizard.

[Inyssius Tor]

...and they're still coming back, from what we've heard.

One of the really fun things I've had a chance to play with in the last couple of weeks is a little bit of development assistance on the Player's Handbook II. The part that I got to get my hands dirty on is the sorcerer--an old friend, since I created the first draft of the sorcerer back in the early days of my work on 3rd Edition. The 3rd Edition sorcerer was spurred by the simple observation that an enormous hunk of valuable real estate in the Player's Handbook was devoted to the support of a single class--the wizard. I asked the question, "Is there some other way we can utilize all these spells?" That and the idea of cast-on-the-fly from a limited list was enough to get the sorcerer into the book, and it became one of the most popular innovations of the 3rd Edition game. In 4th Edition, we don't want to design classes for this sort of reason anymore; since every class is in effect a spellcaster, we don't want to see a 99% overlap of the power lists between two classes. That mean taking the sorcerer back to the broad story concepts (concepts that evolved later in the sorcerer's original 3e design, since the sorcerer began with mechanics in 3e) and thinking hard about what it *could* be and how it could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class. I think we've got some great ideas cooking up on that score. (Hint: It might involve some wild magery.)

[arnoldrew]

I was talking about class completely independent from the wizard.

Why? What he gave you is almost an exact replication of what the Sorcerer is, as exact as you can get with the switch from 3.5E to 4E. Or do you just want something called "The Sorcerer"? Sorcerer and wizard were synonyms in almost all cases until 3E D&D came along.

[hamishspence]

In Faerun books (early), Sorcery was commonly used by authors as the term for any sort of summoning. So any wizard who called up demons devils, celestials, was a sorcerer.

[TheEmerged]

Can't find it right now, but somewhere out there was a spoiler of the classes that were going to be in the PHB2 -- the first letters of the class names that were going to be in it. There was only 1 "b" (meaning either bard or barbarian), there was an "i" (implying illusionist), and if memory servers me there was a "t" (implying telepath) but no "p". If I find it when I get home from work I'll edit it in.

I'm toying with creating the psionic classes myself, mostly for shifts & giggles. I settled on telepath for the controller, soulknife for striker, shaper (instead of psychic warrior, which I always thought was a boring name) for defender, and egoist for leader. I've got the concepts down, it's a matter of balancing what I think they should be able to do with the powers of other classes.

ADDED -- ah HA!

Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.

Classes- First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."

ADDED LATER

Originally Posted by WotC Mearls
At the Seattle game day event, I did an interview with Gamer Radio Zero and was asked about the classes in the PH 2. It was a long, hectic day, and I had very little sleep, so I managed to get some of the initials wrong. Anyway, here are the correct ones:

B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W

There is no R class. I have no idea how my brain inserted that letter into the sequence.

So I'm thinking

Bard
Barbarian
Druid
Illusionist
Sorceror
Shadow-Something
Telepath
Wild-something (please don't let this be Wilder)

Thing is, that violates the "only 3 are returning" statement. You can make arguments both ways as to whether or not telepath & illusionist would be new to D&D (existing under previous editions as subclasses/specializations). It's also been said that there will be "classes LIKE the druid, bard, and barbarian" so I'm betting at least one of them will be renamed. Druid as Shaman? Bard as Troubador (spelling?)?

[Blackdrop]

You don't...you don't think they'd try to do the hip and trendy thing and drop the "p" from the beginning of psion do you> No, they wouldn't do that.

Would they?

So the classes start B,B,D,I,S,S,T, and W. Barring, they didn't give wrong info, on the letters or the returning classes, I think the list looks like this.

Barbarian- Primal Striker
Beast Master- Primal Leader
Druid- Primal Striker or Controller
Illusionist- Arcane Leader
Samurai- Ki Defender
Sorcerer- Elemental Controller or Striker
Troubadour- Arcane Leader
Wilder- Psionic Controller (instead of Psion, which doesn't sound as cool.)

[TheStagesmith]

The Barbarian can't be one of the classes in the PH2; it's already slated to be included in Martial Power.

Isn't it?

[Antacid]

They have already said in a few places that Bard will be an Arcane Leader... the Arcane Defender, Swordmage, comes out with the Forgotten Realms book.

Does anyone know if there's a logical reason why they're putting a character class in the book for a campaign setting? Is the Swordmage going to be specifically flavoured for Forgotten Realms? Why limit the range of official core classes by making obvious power-source/role combinations setting-specific?

[JaxGaret]

Does anyone know if there's a logical reason why they're putting a character class in the book for a campaign setting? Is the Swordmage going to be specifically flavoured for Forgotten Realms? Why limit the range of official core classes by making obvious power-source/role combinations setting-specific?

Why $ are $ they $ doing $ it?

I couldn't tell you.