Ways of Fixing the "bad" Qualities of 4e

[Conners]

This thread is to be a collective of different home-brew ways to fix changes thought to be for the worse with 4e. I don't think it should be changed drastically (it might be easier to homebrew update 3.5ed), merely smaller--like the fact goblins and hobgoblins get a +2 bonus to CHR (I mean, sure, you could assume goblins had it because they've learned how to toady up to people well, but hobgoblins are a military soceity who I think were specified as "non-diplomatic")...

A few things I'd like to bring up that might need "fixing" and suggestions for how they might be "fixed":

Lack of languages: This is easily fixed by house-ruling the old ones in, methinks.

No penalty to stats: I know that the baseline is basically just up one level so that all races get two +2s without penalties, but that doesn't mean all races have to follow this rule (it makes them rather boring).

Racial stats

Gnolls

Currently: +2 CON, +2 DEX.
I personally liked their +4 STR and +2 CON quality, it gave you the idea they were large (as a 7' 06" creature is) and incredibly tough. While I do think being animals makes them extra agile, I think the role "hulking beast" was more important to their character.
Suggested change: +2 STR?, +2 CON?, +1 natural armour?.

Kobolds

Currently: +2 CON, +2 DEX.
Interesting how they go from -2 CON to +2... What was generally appealing about kobolds was how they were weak, but now they're quite identical statistically to a gnoll, marring difference in racial encounter powers.
Suggested change: -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour?.

Goblins

Currently: +2 DEX, +2 CHR.
Three words: Goblins aren't pretty!! My point being that a CHR bonus doesn't really suit goblins in any way...
Suggested change: +2 DEX, +2 INT/WIS?.

Hobgoblins

Currently: +2 CON, +2 CHR.
You know, interesting how people were upset that hobgoblins were LA+1, just because they had two +2 bonuses to stats, with 3.5ed. Then, 4th edition comes out, and two +2 bonuses to stats are the base-level of a race! ....So they decide to give it an unfitting +2 CHR bonus instead of DEX 'cuz' they had already handed out the "+2 CON, +2 DEX" setup to Gnoll and Kobold...
Suggested change: +2 CON, +2 DEX.

[More may be added]


Please post your opinions on the matter of "fixing" "bad" points about 4e.

[Dan_Hemmens]

As Person_Man pointed out on the "4E Houserule" thread, unless something is trivial (like languages), I'd be genuinely careful about instituting any houserules before having a *serious* playthrough of the system.

I'd be very hesitant to ditch the +2/+2 format for races, for example. If you want a character to be bad at something, you can always sell the stat down, but the more little fiddly numbers you throw together the more you open yourself up to min-max city. I'd be extremely careful about the Gnoll stat line in particular, because one +4 is just flat out better than two +2s.

[marjan]

Seeing as how natural armor doesn't stack with armor bonus in 4e (at least I think this is the case), +X to NA is bad idea, since it will either do nothing or do more than it's acceptable.

Furthermore, if we assume that all races are balanced, you will run into some problems with gnolls. Also the +4 bonuses are huge deal now, unlike 3e, since stat bonuses are only available through leveling, race and one epic destiny, so +4 to main stat is too good.

Gnolls: your stat bonuses are to stats that contribute to the same defense so they are a bit redundant.

[Morty]

Actually Charisma bonus fits hobgoblins quite well- they're disciplined, organized, bold, glory-seeking and used to ordering cowardly goblins and brutal bugbears around. I agree though that Cha bonus doesn't fit goblins very well. Int bonus would be much better, but Dex and Int both add to AC and Reflex defense, and designers seem to avoid such an overlap.

[Conners]

As Person_Man pointed out on the "4E Houserule" thread, unless something is trivial (like languages), I'd be genuinely careful about instituting any houserules before having a *serious* playthrough of the system.

I'd be very hesitant to ditch the +2/+2 format for races, for example. If you want a character to be bad at something, you can always sell the stat down, but the more little fiddly numbers you throw together the more you open yourself up to min-max city. I'd be extremely careful about the Gnoll stat line in particular, because one +4 is just flat out better than two +2s.

You have a point, but it makes no sense for there to only be ten languages in a world of so many races...

Ack... I guess I should change it to +2 STR and +2 CON, then?

Seeing as how natural armor doesn't stack with armor bonus in 4e (at least I think this is the case), +X to NA is bad idea, since it will either do nothing or do more than it's acceptable.

Furthermore, if we assume that all races are balanced, you will run into some problems with gnolls. Also the +4 bonuses are huge deal now, unlike 3e, since stat bonuses are only available through leveling, race and one epic destiny, so +4 to main stat is too good.

Gnolls: your stat bonuses are to stats that contribute to the same defense so they are a bit redundant.

It DOESN'T ...!? I need to re-read over those rules....

Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

....I thought 4th ED is meant to be less complicated than 3.5....?

Actually Charisma bonus fits hobgoblins quite well- they're disciplined, organized, bold, glory-seeking and used to ordering cowardly goblins and brutal bugbears around. I agree though that Cha bonus doesn't fit goblins very well. Int bonus would be much better, but Dex and Int both add to AC and Reflex defense, and designers seem to avoid such an overlap.

The way I see it, you don't really need to be charismatic to bully someone. In one source book they had a "Bully" skill, which basically was Intimidate but allowed you to substitute CHR with STR.

Is there a way we an fix this "stats must overlap" thing, or get around it?

[arnoldrew]

Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

Says who? Certainly not me.

[Conners]

Says who? Certainly not me.

I meant with my suggested change. -2 STR, +4 DEX.

[Morty]

The way I see it, you don't really need to be charismatic to bully someone. In one source book they had a "Bully" skill, which basically was Intimidate but allowed you to substitute CHR with STR.

I wouldn't necessary call it "bullying". It might be the case when hobgoblins order goblins around -although in such case goblins might just run away- but bugbears are bigger and stronger than hobgoblins, yet it's said in MM that hobgoblins usually lead mixed tribes. The way I see it, hobgoblins are just naturally predisposed to lead other goblinoids(why did they remove this term eludes me), especially since it's said to be probable that they created them, and be led by other hobgoblins.

Is there a way we an fix this "stats must overlap" thing, or get around it?

I guess you could give them stronger racial features... after all, Eladrin have got +2 DEX and INT yet the're a playable race.

[Skyserpent]

....I thought 4th ED is meant to be less complicated than 3.5....?

It is... you're just more used to 3.5 than 4e. Honestly it's simpler this way. I was never quite sure why Natural Armor and Regular Armor stack when Mage Armor and regular Armor don't back in 3.5...

[Conners]

I wouldn't necessary call it "bullying". It might be the case when hobgoblins order goblins around -although in such case goblins might just run away- but bugbears are bigger and stronger than hobgoblins, yet it's said in MM that hobgoblins usually lead mixed tribes. The way I see it, hobgoblins are just naturally predisposed to lead other goblinoids(why did they remove this term eludes me), especially since it's said to be probable that they created them, and be led by other hobgoblins.



I guess you could give them stronger racial features... after all, Eladrin have got +2 DEX and INT yet the're a playable race.

Ah, I'm not too familiar with the new fluff, yet. I'm certainly not too attached to some of it, particularly gnolls: [spoiler]going from tenaciously evil animoids to demon-worshiping, mindless, blood-hungering raiders... I thought them bad enough or too bad as it was...[spoiler]
Meh, goblins don't manage to run away when Overlords, Orcs, Humans, Bugbears, and etcetera enslave and boss them around. From what I knew of hobgoblin fluff, they captured goblins and made them slaves/cannon-fodder, and were a military race. Never heard of them leading bugbears, I heard it was viceversa.

How about hombrewing in Races of the Dragon kobold feats, that balance it out?


@Skyserpent: Heyas, Sky. Been a while.

Yeah... I guess I'm just unable to shake the oh-so-hard system of 3.5, which I struggled to learn, from my mind, when looking at 4e...

[Starsinger]

It seems to me, that by adding stat penalties where they weren't before, is you complicating things.

[SamTheCleric]

So by "fix" you mean "make more like 3.5" ?

If you want to do that... why not... play 3.5?

[Conners]

It seems to me, that by adding stat penalties where they weren't before, is you complicating things.

... Actually, it's me trying to make a difference between a 7' 03" gnoll and a 3' 09" kobold.

So by "fix" you mean "make more like 3.5" ?

If you want to do that... why not... play 3.5?

Sort of, yeah. That's why I put "fix" and "bad" in speech/quote marks.

There are some things I love about 4e, but there seem to be a few features that just scream "weird" to me... I've seen some people with similar opinions, so I thought I'd start a thread for "fixing" it to suit said people.

[Morty]

Meh, goblins don't manage to run away when Overlords, Orcs, Humans, Bugbears, and etcetera enslave and boss them around. From what I knew of hobgoblin fluff, they captured goblins and made them slaves/cannon-fodder, and were a military race. Never heard of them leading bugbears, I heard it was viceversa.

In Monster Manual, it's written that "hobgoblins usually rule mixed goblinoid tribes unless severely outmatched" and that it's possible that in ancient times they created goblins and bugbears to serve, respectively, as spies/scouts and shock troops. Since they're also bold and seek glory in battle, I'd say Cha bonus is appropriate.

[RTGoodman]

Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

Well, Kobolds don't have Natural Armor in 4E, and they're just as powerful as other races. They get +2 Con/Dex, 6-square speed, +2 to defenses vs. traps, and and the ability to shift 1 square as an at-will minor action.

Of course, I just noticed that they don't have low-light vision OR darkvision. I might have to houserule that, at least.

[Conners]

In Monster Manual, it's written that "hobgoblins usually rule mixed goblinoid tribes unless severely outmatched" and that it's possible that in ancient times they created goblins and bugbears to serve, respectively, as spies/scouts and shock troops. Since they're also bold and seek glory in battle, I'd say Cha bonus is appropriate.

Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?

Well, Kobolds don't have Natural Armor in 4E, and they're just as powerful as other races. They get +2 Con/Dex, 6-square speed, +2 to defenses vs. traps, and and the ability to shift 1 square as an at-will minor action.

Of course, I just noticed that they don't have low-light vision OR darkvision. I might have to houserule that, at least.

I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds . -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Wait. No dark-vision? Madness! Why didn't I see this before...? That certainly has to be changed if I ever DM a kobold campaign...

[RTGoodman]

I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds . -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Oh, oops. I guess I accidentally scrolled past 'em, since I remember reading Gnolls and Goblins...

[Skyserpent]

Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?

I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds . -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Wait. No dark-vision? Madness! Why didn't I see this before...? That certainly has to be changed if I ever DM a kobold campaign...

heh... I'm going to go with magick mostly because I like to avoid the squick created by Hot Skitty On Wailord Action /shudder...

[Conners]

Oh, oops. I guess I accidentally scrolled past 'em, since I remember reading Gnolls and Goblins...

That's OK. I found what you said in your post quite useful, actually.

heh... I'm going to go with magick mostly because I like to avoid the squick created by Hot Skitty On Wailord Action /shudder...

It actually looks pretty cute, if you don't think of it as sexual.

[Morty]

Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?

Well, it's not certain, but a DC30 Nature check reveals that they might have bred them magically. It's probably supposed to be ambigous, though.
Also, Cha bonus for goblins looks suspiciously like it was put on just so that they've got something without really thinking about applications.

[monty]

Goblins

Currently: +2 DEX, +2 CHR.
Three words: Goblins aren't pretty!! My point being that a CHR bonus doesn't really suit goblins in any way...
Suggested change: +2 DEX, +2 INT/WIS?

Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5 .

[Conners]

Well, it's not certain, but a DC30 Nature check reveals that they might have bred them magically. It's probably supposed to be ambigous, though.
Also, Cha bonus for goblins looks suspiciously like it was put on just so that they've got something without really thinking about applications

You mean they took some magic-steriods to see if they could generate a new type of freak? ...Ew.
So they placed it there cuz they had nothing better ?

Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5

I was making a joke with the "not pretty" statement, and considered furthering it with, "they don't have long, golden pigtails, with frilly pink bows and longer silky dresses".

As said before, I like a lot of the 4e system, but some parts of it seem too strange, or blatantly unrealistic (unrealistic DnD-wise, that is)--such as their only being ten languages.

[Morty]

You mean they took some magic-steriods to see if they could generate a new type of freak? ...Ew.

Maybe, maybe not. I think this fluff is fairly silly as well.

So they placed it there cuz they had nothing better ?

I belive it's very probable.

[purepolarpanzer]

Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5 .

And I didn't see a reference in 4e that charisma was at all related to looks. Darn good switch if you ask me. Sposed to be a mental stat, and we all know people who may look appealing but are socially awkward or even worse.

[Conners]

Maybe, maybe not. I think this fluff is fairly silly as well.

I belive it's very probable.

....Sooo... homebew it back to 3.5 version, where their god just made several races ?

I'm wondering if they rushed 4e a bit, since sorcerer isn't in PHB and a few other things.

And I didn't see a reference in 4e that charisma was at all related to looks. Darn good switch if you ask me. Sposed to be a mental stat, and we all know people who may look appealing but are socially awkward or even worse.

I realize this, I was making a short punchline with "goblins aren't pretty".

[Chronos]

Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average.

[Conners]

Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average.

..... Pardon? It says in the 4th edition handbook that dwarves have +2 CON, +2 WIS, I can't see anything else about their attributes.

[marjan]

Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average.

You know, I never thought about it this way, but it actually makes sense.

[Morty]

....Sooo... homebew it back to 3.5 version, where their god just made several races ?

It's not so much homebrew as fluff change. Of course, in 4ed goblinoids revere Bane and Maglubyiet along with Hruggek are his exarchs.

I'm wondering if they rushed 4e a bit, since sorcerer isn't in PHB and a few other things.

I didn't mean that WoTC rushed 4ed but that in their opinion noone was going to care about goblin PC stats anyway.

[Innis Cabal]

no, they didnt rush it, sorcerer is no longer a class, period