[4E] Why Bother With Unconsciousness?

[Merlin the Tuna]

So, 4e rules primer for the uninitiated. When a monster is reduced to 0 HP, the player who struck the last blow can freely decide whether it's knocked out or dead, whether they're using a great axe, crossbow, Scorching Burst, Shining Finger, Razor Leaf, or whatever.

On the PC side of the fence, when a player is reduced to 0 HP, they're rendered unconscious. They roll a save on each turn until either they fail 3 and die or roll a natural 20 and bounce back up (assuming they have a healing surge ready). Another character can also administer first aid to stabilize them.

My question is, given this already kind-of silly (but thoroughly enjoyable) system, what advantage to we have to calling them unconscious as opposed to just calling them incapacitated? Instead of completely KOing the person involved, why not just put them on the ground, bleeding, groaning, and unable to act or resist being bound?

KO'd monsters are typically not killed so that they can be interrogated. I don't see much benefit in making that interrogation happen five minutes after the battle ends as opposed to 10 seconds after the battle ends. Same deal for capturing prisoners. This also feels a little bit more reasonable when using attacks that amount to something other than "I hit him in the head with a blunt object."

PCs have the power to bounce back up from unconsciousness on a nat 20, at which point they will begin acting as tactically as the player can manage; this doesn't really correspond well to them being completely out of commission, even for just a few rounds. If instead they're able to helplessly watch the battle transpire, it makes a bit more sense that they can keep track of what's going on and what needs to be done. It also makes healing techniques based on inspiration make about a million percent more sense. Personally, I think it's got a bit more of a gritty feeling to it, as well. And finally, it means less time having PCs explain what's been going on to other PCs that got KO'd during the battle.

I figure that it just makes more sense to let your players know that enemies can be killed, KO'd, or simply disabled and that PCs will typically be disabled rather than KO'd when their HP reach 0.

Thoughts?

[AKA_Bait]

My question is, given this already kind-of silly (but thoroughly enjoyable) system, what advantage to we have to calling them unconscious as opposed to just calling them incapacitated? Instead of completely KOing the person involved, why not just put them on the ground, bleeding, groaning, and unable to act or resist being bound?

Nitpick over word choice much?

KO'd monsters are typically not killed so that they can be interrogated. I don't see much benefit in making that interrogation happen five minutes after the battle ends as opposed to 10 seconds after the battle ends. Same deal for capturing prisoners. This also feels a little bit more reasonable when using attacks that amount to something other than "I hit him in the head with a blunt object."

I don't really see why this is important. 10 seconds after the battle ends and 5 minutes after the battle ends are pretty much the exact same thing in terms of table time spent, the only difference is that the players now have their encounter powers back (presuming they take a short rest in the time in between.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Nitpick over word choice much?

Whether a person is or is not aware of his surroundings is kind of a big distinction.

I don't really see why this is important. 10 seconds after the battle ends and 5 minutes after the battle ends are pretty much the exact same thing in terms of table time spent, the only difference is that the players now have their encounter powers back (presuming they take a short rest in the time in between.

It's mostly a style thing. On the monsters-at-0 front, it mostly addresses the concern of "How did you knock him unconscious with the pointy end of a spear?" Simply put... don't. Open him up until he's writhing in agony and unable to strike back.

Even beyond that particular concern -- which honestly I find a bit trivial -- I think it works out better for the PCs to be aware of things that happen while they're down, whether it's cutting out combat debriefs from the guys that stayed standing, making "inspiration" heals a bit less goofy, providing opportunities for monologues from recently (if temporarily) victorious villains, and the like.

I'm not going to pretend that this is some sort of epiphany or that I'm reinventing the wheel, but it seems to be a simple fix for a few stylistic issues.

[Indon]

PCs have the power to bounce back up from unconsciousness on a nat 20, at which point they will begin acting as tactically as the player can manage; this doesn't really correspond well to them being completely out of commission, even for just a few rounds. If instead they're able to helplessly watch the battle transpire, it makes a bit more sense that they can keep track of what's going on and what needs to be done. It also makes healing techniques based on inspiration make about a million percent more sense. Personally, I think it's got a bit more of a gritty feeling to it, as well. And finally, it means less time having PCs explain what's been going on to other PCs that got KO'd during the battle.

I figure that it just makes more sense to let your players know that enemies can be killed, KO'd, or simply disabled and that PCs will typically be disabled rather than KO'd when their HP reach 0.

Thoughts?

Much better for anime-style combat.

BBEG: "Take that!"
Plucky Young Hero: *flies into wall, steps back, staggered and bleeding and obviously unable to fight*
BBEG: "How do you intend to fight me? Look at you - you can barely stand!"
Plucky Young Hero: "I... refuse... to die!" *rolls nat 20*

Though you'd have to add, "doesn't fall over" to "doesn't fall unconscious".

[AKA_Bait]

Whether a person is or is not aware of his surroundings is kind of a big distinction.

Not in practical play, at least, IME. Characters, perhaps in a silly unrealistic fashion, are pretty much assumed to automatically know how the battlefield has changed when they were out just by glancing at it as they return to consciousness.

It's mostly a style thing. On the monsters-at-0 front, it mostly addresses the concern of "How did you knock him unconscious with the pointy end of a spear?" Simply put... don't. Open him up until he's writhing in agony and unable to strike back.

You could also just say he passed out from the pain of having a big metal triangle shoved through his chest.

Even beyond that particular concern -- which honestly I find a bit trivial -- I think it works out better for the PCs to be aware of things that happen while they're down, whether it's cutting out combat debriefs from the guys that stayed standing, making "inspiration" heals a bit less goofy, providing opportunities for monologues from recently (if temporarily) victorious villains, and the like.

Probably. You are probably right that there isn't anything gained by saying unconscious instead of incapacitated, but honestly I don't think it's something the designers expected to matter.

[Pinnacle]

This is generally how I've always treated "unconscious" in RPGs.

[JaxGaret]

Two things that are completely incorrect about the OP:

1) The default for a PC dropped to 0 HP is Dying, not unconscious.

2) HP is abstract, almost to an extreme in D&D (not limited to 4e). Dropping someone to zero HP with a spear is really not all that farfetched, considering that a character at 2 HP is fighting pretty much as well as a character with full HP.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Two things that are completely incorrect about the OP:

1) The default for a PC dropped to 0 HP is Dying, not unconscious.

"Dying" however includes "unconscious" as an effect.

I think the heart of the OP's point is correct actually, it's just that it's based on an over-literal interpretation of the terminology. "Unconscious" is a game mechanical term, it doesn't necessarily literally mean "out cold" it could mean "incapacitated". In fact, the mechanical definition of unconsciousness doesn't say anything about your awareness of your surroundings.