I really like skill challenges.

[Thrud]

I like Skill Challenges better than the WW system. WW was always waaay too nebulous in how to deal with Aces, Ones, and success v. DC. Skill Challenges are an extremely tight system, but the fluff can be a bit harder to implement... hence these threads.

Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't use the WW system in D&D. I just stole the basic concept and adapted it. Then all you have to do is assign challenge ratings to various skill based events, and the game no longer has to be all about combat. This was always my favorite part of 3ed. It was so easy to adapt to a system where combat was not essential, i.e.the only means for increasing in level. Of course, I dislike the basic concept of levels anyway, but ehh, if you are going to play D&D there are some things you just have to use.

[AslanCross]

I really like the concept too, but since I'm still running a 3.5 campaign that is too far along to convert, I also began applying the idea.

The first time I used this was two days ago. Here's the excerpt from my notes:

Objective: To meet with an informant undetected and retrieve whatever information from her that will help them discover the truth behind the Marquis Eldershade's actions.
Complexity: Requires 6 successes before 3 failures.
Primary Skills: Disguise, Spot, Sense Motive

• Disguise (Cha); opposed by an assassin's Spot check: You enter the tavern in disguise, hoping to evade enemy attention. Characters can aid a main character in creating a disguise.
Success: The Assassin does not recognize you. The assassin strike team outside will only attack the PCs who remained outside. Award each character an extra 500 XP.
Failure: The Fire Knives strike team outside waits for the PCs to come out and attacks in full force (full CR)

• Sense Motive (DC 22) You attempt to get a feel of the attention that the surrounding people are giving you.
Success: You sense you are being watched (if they fail the Disguise check) OR You sense that someone in the area was meant to spy on you. Either result gives a +2 bonus on the Spot check to find the assassin.

• Spot (Opposed by assassin's Hide check): You attempt to pick out the Assassin from the crowd.
Success: You realize that a thin man with a gray goatee has been looking at you.
Failure (4 or less): Nobody seems to be looking at you, after all.
Failure (5 or more): You spot someone "watching you." (Wrong person)

• Spot (DC 13) You attempt to read the informant's lips as she speaks a message in code. The DC is mitigated since she tries hard to emphasize every syllable for you to understand.
Success: You successfully receive part of her message.
"It is a shame. Elder trees cast an uncomfortable shade…"
Failure (4 or less): You have no idea what she is saying.
Failure (5 or more): You get the wrong message

• Listen (DC 20) You attempt to hear the informant's whisper. Since she is trying to keep the message from being intercepted, she is speaking as quietly as possible.
Success: You successfully receive her entire message.
"It is a shame. Elder trees cast an uncomfortable shade. Answers found in text. Glyphs never lie. Be wary, fire is hungry and consumes; knives may wound and kill."

Here's how it turned out:
Everyone in the party has reasonably high CHA (nobody has it in the negatives), but due to their near-celebrity status (the wizard is a baron in the land), they decided to leave the sneaking to people with the right sensibilities.

Party:
-Alioth: Aasimar Paladin. Tank + greatsword = disguise out of the question.
-Azareth: Moon Elf Wizard. Landed nobility = forget it.
-Acantha: Cleric of Kelemvor. Armor + shield = disguise out of the question.
-Kieran: Half-Elf Rogue. The only character with ranks in Disguise and Bluff. 8 WIS.
-Lesa: Wood Elf Ranger. The only character capable of reigning in Kieran + good senses = should go.

<Lesa, the ranger> Who is good at disguises?
<Everyone> Kieran. [the rogue, who is female despite the name]
<Lesa> Who is good at acting?
<Everyone> Kieran.
<Lesa> Who is fearless?
<Everyone> Kieran.
<Kieran> I'm glad I'm so popular.
<Lesa> Then again, can we trust her?
<Kieran> See? SEE? You can't trust me with negotiations! Unless you want me to sell all your gear.
<Lesa> Fine, let me come along.

Kieran disguises herself as a tavern dancer just in case they needed distractions. (she has ranks in Perform (dance). She chooses a revealing gypsy outfit.

Lesa adopts a more mundane commoner costume meant to hide her elven features.

As they were entering the tavern, Azareth whispered one last piece of advice to them before they entered: "Buy a drink to keep yourselves from standing out."
"No problem!", replied Kieran cheerfully.
As they sat down close to the informant, Lesa ordered two rounds of ale. Kieran gulped hers down with no complaints. Lesa had to force herself.
Kieran and Lesa actually succeeded in their Disguise checks vs. the assassin's Spot check. He was observing them as they entered, but failed to recognize them. SUCCESSES: 2, FAILURES: 0
Lesa began to look around the tavern to keep watch. She spotted a thin man with a gray goatee looking at them, then suddenly looking away.
"Kieran, I think you have an admirer."
"What? Where?"
Lesa's Spot check beats the assassin's Hide check. SUCCESSES: 3, FAILURES: 0
The assassin begins to leave, and Lesa begins to feel uncomfortable with the situation. She tries to puzzle over the situation, and her intuition tells her that the man was most likely sent to watch them. (Sense Motive)
SUCCESSES: 4, FAILURES: 0

The informant gave her message, and Lesa was able to correctly receive the message both by reading lips (Spot) and listening (Listen in above the din of the tavern.
SUCCESSES: 6, FAILURES: 0

The two remain a few more minutes, then get up to leave. They begin to attempt to follow the man.

Although they successfully complete the challenge, the PCs moved a bit too rashly afterwards, drawing the assassin's attention. The PCs fight the entire strike team and defeat it soundly, with their sorcerer artillery trapped in a resilient sphere and the assassin leader himself embedded in the masonry of a wall nearby (thanks to the paladin--who has a level of crusader--and his Mountain Hammer.)
Kieran unfortunately got hit with a phantasmal assailants spell by the sorcerer and failed both her saves, dropping her to 0 WIS. The sorcerer also dropped a fireball on the party, setting fire to the tavern door. (Acantha, the cleric, quickly put it out with create water--drenching the convulsing Kieran, who was on the floor beside it.) In the aftermath of the encounter, when the law enforcement came to help them out, Kieran was restored back to sanity---albeit sopping wet in a skimpy tavern dancer outfit. The party did complete the challenge and was able to stop the strike team from reporting back to their masters.

Observations:
-You sometimes have to prod the players with hints. Thankfully, Lesa's player is smart and caught on quickly.
-Design the challenge with the player's skills in mind. No brainer; no point in making a challenge the players aren't equipped to deal with.
-The problem with this is that Lesa kind of soloed the challenge. Kieran was the only other person who contributed, using her Disguise skill.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Well, this is going well. A common complaint has been the difficulty of the acting out the Baron Poopypants scenario.

I was really just listing what was happening in response to the checks. So perhaps the players just want to make checks, and then we work out what happened afterwards. In social encounters, on the other hand, the players talk, and if they've stated all of their case upfront, then I can just have them make multiple checks at once. If the success of one skill reveals the use of another skill, they can make that, get the information given, and then use it to further the interaction.

And for those wondering about whole party interaction, one could use the simple rules I have in the OP for "group checks," or one could have everyone aside from the person with the highest skill count as aiding the main skill-user. The purpose is to avoid the following scenario (note, this is supposed to be an example of pre-skill challenge skill checks):

Guards: "Welcome to the realm of Baron Poopypants. No weapons allowed."
Smilin' Bard: Oh, I don't have any weapons. *Twinkle* (Bluff, success)
Attractive Sorceror: This is just a walking stick. *Twinkle* (Bluff, success)
Dwarf with a bad smell: Who me? I'm carrying these axes for those two. (Bluff, Nat-1, failure)
Guards: "SEIZE THE SMUGGLERS!"

In a social encounter in real life, it would be possible for one bad liar to give up a whole scheme. But as this is a game, realism here actually takes away from all those beautiful points put into Bluff for the other two characters. The second the dwarf opens his mouth, it all goes out the window. So his character is likely to keep his mouth shut or grunt towards the bard in every encounter. But sometimes, your Cha 6 Half-orc fighter just didn't want to stay quiet because the bad guy was pissing him off. A skill challenge is just a simple game mechanic for allowing other people to compensate in case of rash behavior or a bad lie. So the above encounter could carry on in a skill challenge.

DM: Okay guys, let's see you bluff or diplomacy your way out of this one.
Dwarf: I'm rolling an Intimidate check. These guys are annoying me. (Intimidate, success)
Other two: And we'll try to make the guards a little more accepting of our nice friend by telling them how dangerous he is, and how we don't think they are any less of men for letting him past. (Bluff, success;Diplomacy, failure; but the bluff came first!)

Dwarf: If you two knew what's best for ya, you wouldn't be harassing a very angry dwarf, who has very big axes and hasn't had a good bath in over a week.
Smilin' Warlord: (Hey when did my class change?) Now, Rolfgar, we've talked about this temper, and it didn't do us any good to have to kill that band of ogres instead of talking to them, now did it?
Guards: "Well, it's really only one person...No big deal eh? Get on through. We're busy. Yeah, that's it...busy. Never saw a thing Hank. Me neither Tom."

So there is an interaction where the players discussed their rolls first, rolled them, and then explained the results. Man, I have to admit. I'm just having a lot of fun coming up with skill challenges for the realm of Baron Poopypants. Maybe I can fit this into a campaign? And I did this quickly enough that it seems like a DM wouldn't have even had to plan much for this encounter, if at all.

[Gralamin]

I ran a simple skill challenge in a one shot earlier. It took me about 30 minutes to weave it in and it was very simple to me. The players did not try any other skills, however.

Setup: Your fighting a white dragon inside its lair. It is using the ice to stop the party from moving and is using its flight to great advantage. On the wall to the left is riddle written in blood. The riddle is actually a spell, one that a priest of Orcus left, as a last ditch effort to kill the dragon. He did not live long enough to succeed. The spell could fail at any moment. (Complexity 1)

A message in blood is splattered a pillar on your left, on it sits the message: "He who can answer this riddle can bind the dragon."

Cometh dusk, the lord did fall
Death itself rejoiced.
Cometh midnight the lord did rise
The lord of skulls rejoiced
Cometh dawn the lord did stall
for the shadow was no more a skull
Cometh noon the lord did fall
and the skull destroyed the shadow

You notice some faint lines underneath the blood, perhaps clues. You know that your knowledge of the arcane as well as religion may help you answer the riddle.

The answer is Tenebrous

[Oracle_Hunter]

People are putting the cart before the horse here.

Skill Challenges aren't supposed to replace the social interactions you had in 3e, they're supposed to provide a framework to resolve how they work out.

So in the weapons-smuggling case, that's not a Skill Challenge - everyone just makes a skill check to sneak in their own stuff. Now, if you were trying to convince border guards to not check your wagon for contraband, that might be more of a Skill Challenge. In the former case, the PCs are making a simple declaration; one roll should resolve it. In the later case, the border guard isn't just going to say "Do you have any contraband" and let you go - he's going to check you out, and see whether or not you need more investigation.

Also: don't tell the PCs what skills they'll need, show them. So in the case of the riddle (which I wouldn't recommend using as a skill challenge, anyhow) say "there are a variety of runes following the message." Smart PCs will ask you if they can figure out what they mean - ask them which Knowledge check they'd like to roll.

So, here's a quick sample of the Duke's Challenge (4/2)

Spoiler

Show

DM: You are ushered into the study of Duke Ironbeard. It is a simply, but well appointed room complete with an overstuffed chair, upholstered with wyrmskin. The Duke is seated in the chair before a fireplace, warding off the cool winder air. The servant gestures to a collection of wooden chairs before the Duke and bids you to be seated.
Duke: "Welcome to my home. The Archduke's letter you bore said that you required some assistance. What is it that you need?"
Warlord: "Hail my lord. We are on a quest of great importance and need safe passage through the Bloodlord's Domain. The Archduke said that you may be able to secure us protection from the Bloodlord's Riders, due to your close ties with him."
DM: "Indeed." The Duke strokes his beard for a moment and gazes into the fire. "I rode with the Bloodlord in my younger days, and despite his wild ways, he still bears some respect for my sigil. However, even at the Archduke's request, I cannot risk the fragile peace we have with the Bloodlord by placing you under my protection."
Warlord: "But lord..."
DM: Alright, stop right there. If you're going to convince the Duke, its going to take some doing. We'll start up a skill challenge. Warlord, you have the first turn.
Warlod: *ahem* "But lord, did not the letter describe our service to the Archduke? We are trustworthy companions, and we will not besmirch your name!" I'll roll diplomacy *rolls*
DM: *checks* failure. The Duke looks you firmly in the eye and says "I have read of your deeds. Words on paper are all well and good, but I trust in men, not letters." Who's next?
Wizard: Me! "Duke Ironbeard, our quest is a simple one, and will not trouble the Bloodlord at all. We seek... (minutes later) ... and once we have recovered the Orb of Wyar, we can head back without harming anyone. Why, we can even pay you if you want it!" *rolls Diplomacy*
DM: *sighs* *checks* a success. The Duke listens patiently to you, although he seems to be getting rather bored at the end, and begins drinking heavily from a nearby flagon. He lets out a heavy sigh when you finish and says "Very well, you make a fine case. But do not worry about payment... I am not so impoverished that I need to sell my protection to travelers. But still, that is no easy journey, and there are many dangers in the Bloodlord's lands. However well prepared you are, there is still the danger that you may offend him." Next?
Rogue: Hmm... what do I know about the Bloodlord's lands?
DM: Roll History *checks* Not good enough. You've heard of them, of course, but you never really bothered to check up on it. That doesn't count against the challenge, by the way.
Rogue: Well, that's good at least. Hmm... "Duke Ironbeard, you do not need to worry about us! We are seasoned travelers and know well the perils of the Bloodlord's Domain!" Bluff, of course. *rolls*
DM: Risky! *checks* A success, surprisingly. Though the Duke looks at you skeptically, his heavy brow lifts and says "Truly? Well, not many know of the Bloodlord's Domain from the Northland. Perhaps you are as seasoned as you claim." He nods warmly, and you think he's finally coming around. Alright Fighter, your turn.
Fighter: Huh? Um... I'll agree with the Rogue.
DM: Really? Roll History *checks* well, you know nothing about the Bloodlord's Domain. Do you want to Bluff?
Fighter: No! I just want to say yeah, the Rogue knows what he's talking about. Can't I pass?
DM The Duke's eyes look at you expectantly "Well, warrior, do you share your friend's enthusiasms?"
Fighter: I nod!
DM: Fine, roll Insight first. *checks* Well, you can't tell whether the Rogue was lying or not, so you can either use Bluff or Diplomacy then.
Fighter: Eh, they're all the same to me. *rolls* Natural 1!
DM: The Duke takes the full measure of your being and frowns. He turns back to Rogue and takes a second look at him. "Sir" he says to you (points Rogue) "I do not think your friend shares in your enthusiasm. Why is that?" You've failed the Skill Challenge, but maybe you can salvage it.
Rogue: "Sir, you are a wise man, and clearly one of good judgment. I have said that we know of the Bloodlord's domain, but one cannot be truly confident in their preparations before the day. My friend here is a simple man, and does not trust in plans, but in practice, but do not worry! We have studied the Bloodlord's Domain extensively and I have every confidence that we can acquit ourselves without harm to your reputation!"
DM: *whistles* you don't take small bites, do you. Well, that's a pretty good save, so I'll give you +2 to your Bluff. Roll. *checks* A success. The Duke stands up from his chair and gazes about the room. "Perhaps what you say is truth. Tomorrow I am making a ride of the Border. Meet me at the keep's stables and we shall see how prepared you really are."
Rogue: Aw, crap. Um... anyone trained in Nature? We'd better see what we can learn before tomorrow.
DM: indeed. The Duke gestures for you all to stand and says "This audience is at an end. I will see you at the stables, or I trust I will not see you again." And with a mixed expression on his face, he leaves the room.

That is how a social challenge should go, IMHO. The players are encouraged to keep up with the conversation, and all are required to act. Knowledge checks are generally used to inform character reactions, not garner successes, and while nobody used Insight, any PC could have used Insight to try and learn a clue about the Duke's demeanor.

[OneFamiliarFace]

I was hoping the Baron Poopypants thing would indicate I was trying to simplify it a bit . Though that's a good point. My checkpoint guards weren't really a long enough or important enough encounter to warrant an official challenge.

Still, I like the idea of the impromptu skill challenge being used to resolve sticky and problematic situations which arise from a character messing up or (as is more often the case), a player acting the fool. It's not officially designed as such, but I think allowing characters who have put points into social skills using those skills to alleviate problematic situations in such a fashion is not necessarily wrong-minded.

But I will keep that in mind when I start DMing. Social challenges should probably be reserved for the planned and important social interactions. And other types of skill challenges can be used to represent longer periods of time time taking place, like a hunt or competition.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But I will keep that in mind when I start DMing. Social challenges should probably be reserved for the planned and important social interactions. And other types of skill challenges can be used to represent longer periods of time time taking place, like a hunt or competition.

Very true.

It's best to plan your Skill Challenges just like you plan Combat Encounters. That said, if the PCs get caught on the wrong side of a barroom brawl and you want to see if they can talk their way out of it, a nice quick 4/2 encounter with the Watch Sergeant is pretty easy to set up. But yeah, don't use 'em "just because" since they do slow down play, just like throwing a squad of gobos "just because" can.

[nagora]

People are putting the cart before the horse here.

Skill Challenges aren't supposed to replace the social interactions you had in 3e, they're supposed to provide a framework to resolve how they work out.

You're asking the highly unlikely. The rules look like a replacement for social interaction and will be used as such by lots of players and DMs. And any group of players who understand your point probably don't need the rules in order to resolve social interactions - they'd just roleplay it anyway.

Best to keep the skill challenges for physical things: escaping, making things, perhaps as a crutch for solving puzzles when the player's brains aren't working this week, and other things that can be difficult to RP. For those, I think they're a good idea. For social stuff or really anything that a player and DM can roleplay they're just not needed or desirable.

Anyway, this was supposed to be a positive thread so I'll leave it at that: rules should not be over-generalised, but used carefully where they are suitable then skill challenges seem pretty good.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Anyway, this was supposed to be a positive thread so I'll leave it at that: rules should not be over-generalised, but used carefully where they are suitable then skill challenges seem pretty good.

True in every case. Of course, it's always up the group. Some groups may actually like skill challenges as a way to avoid long RPing stuff if they love the hack-n-slash. Some groups may want to only roleplay social interactions and never roll a die (of course, that begs the question of what to do with diplomacy and what not :-p)

And you are probably right that people will just use the rules as is, as a substitute for actual interaction. If that's the case, then no good, unless it is the entire group's intention to do so.

This hasn't been discussed much, but I do like their implications for contests and competitions as well. Athletic/Acrobatic/Endurance skill challenges can represent moving through course obstacles. At first, this would seem to just be a "make the check when you come to it," but I houseruled some pretty complicated rules to footraces at one point (because I didn't just want whoever had the highest speed score to win outright, due to endurance and what-not) which people loved. This provides a framework to have a similar idea, which includes endurance and other physical training into a competition.

[Talic]

Some groups may want to only roleplay social interactions and never roll a die (of course, that begs the question of what to do with diplomacy and what not :-p)

Only issue here is that the closest parallel is the fighter who knows the entire MM stat block for every encounter.

Using player abilities to substitute for character skills is rarely a good thing. At best, I use rolls, and allow players to role play those rolls. Thus, the player with a +7 diplomacy that rolled a 1, should roleplay a diplomacy check of 8. The character with a -1 diplomacy mod and a roll of 20 gets to act out a brief moment in tact and persuasion.

Bottom line, charismatic players generally like the no-roll system, because it benefits them. But it's not balanced. You want a charismatic character, build it, roll it, and role it.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Bottom line, charismatic players generally like the no-roll system, because it benefits them. But it's not balanced. You want a charismatic character, build it, roll it, and role it.

And that's a fine way to do it. In my group, we tend to prefer rolls to more directly map to social encounters. But not every group does. In my old group, we had 5 players, and 3 of them were there to see the cool things they could do in combat. They weren't particularly interested in roleplaying or talking beyond what ale they were drinking that day (they eventually came around and we had great party interactions). So if our party ever wanted to be diplomatic, did one of the other two of us HAVE to pick a social class? I would say no. We ended up having a sexy rogue who helped us in a few situations, but my likeable halfling did just as well because he was just plain friendly.

I think that if you have to make a roll for any social encounter, then it can bog down play. Rolls are mostly for bartering, negotiations, and the like, where it suddenly becomes your social skills versus another's. In the meantime, I say play your character as amiably or as gruffly as you would like.

My low charisma dwarf who is plenty friendly but ugly as sin (and a bit smelly) would agree! People who know him like him, people who don't would rather not. :-p