[4E] Why do we need so many Elves?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Alright,

I will begrudgingly admit that I like some of the new stuff from 4e. (HP now = AWESOME POINTS just because of how even more abstract they are now)

However: why do there need to be so many CORE elves? I mean, I think it's fairly obvious that Eladrin are just High elves. Then we have the Elves, that are wood elves.

These don't bother me (Though I see no need for them to be separate races.) But why did the Gnomes go from skinny short dwarves to ugly illusionist Elves?

It is bad enough that they were heartlessly ripped from the PHB to be replaced by furries, but now they need to be elf-ified? I really just don't see why.

And yes, I know "Blah blah handwave the fluff blah", but that isn't really the point of discussing the new books yah? Using that logic the books should just be bound pages full of numbers.

[Indon]

Because having far more types of elves than is necessary is a long-standing D&D tradition.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Because having far more types of elves than is necessary is a long-standing D&D tradition.

I understand this but, at least in 3.5, they weren't core and they weren't corrupting other races.

I guess that's my biggest problem. The elf cup runneth over, and spilled on other folks.

[The Gilded Duke]

Eladrin aren't elves. Eladrin are awesome.
Any further questions?


----------
For a more thorough response, while Eladrin are mentioned to be similar to high elves, they seem to be written up as a very different form of elf. Instead of just assigning a different environment or elemental type to each different Elf type, Eladrin seem to come from a different interpretation of Elves overall.

Instead of Elves as natural nature worshiping creatures they are strange inhuman creatures that aren't fully there whose villages regularly vanish or move who can become greater Fey. Look at their entry in the monster manual.

[mikeejimbo]

I dunno, it bugs me that gnomes are elves now. I'm playing a gnome, and he's sure not going to be elf-like.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Eladrin aren't elves. Eladrin are awesome.
Any further questions?


----------
For a more thorough response, while Eladrin are mentioned to be similar to high elves, they seem to be written up as a very different form of elf. Instead of just assigning a different environment or elemental type to each different Elf type, Eladrin seem to come from a different interpretation of Elves overall.

Instead of Elves as natural nature worshiping creatures they are strange inhuman creatures that aren't fully there whose villages regularly vanish or move who can become greater Fey. Look at their entry in the monster manual.

Right so...high elves with extra magic. yay?

[Indon]

Right so...high elves with extra magic. yay?

Grey Elves, if you ask me.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Grey Elves, if you ask me.

Very well then. Grey elves.

Still too many elves.

[Crow]

Eladrin aren't elves. Eladrin are awesome.
Any further questions?


----------
For a more thorough response, while Eladrin are mentioned to be similar to high elves, they seem to be written up as a very different form of elf. Instead of just assigning a different environment or elemental type to each different Elf type, Eladrin seem to come from a different interpretation of Elves overall.

Instead of Elves as natural nature worshiping creatures they are strange inhuman creatures that aren't fully there whose villages regularly vanish or move who can become greater Fey. Look at their entry in the monster manual.

Seriously man, Eladrin and Elves are basically the same thing with a different twist. No big deal.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Plus, rather than screwing with complicated fluff, WotC takes both the "high magic" elves and the "wild" elves and presents them as mechanically different, with little fluff attached. This way you can just say have someone play one or another without drawing up a whole complicated intra-elven society.

Did you every read the Complete Book of Elves in 2e? Now that's a lot of elves!

[RTGoodman]

Well, I don't think I really need to point out all the subraces in 3.5 - it's gotta be like 20 or so by now.

And it's not like there aren't two types of elves in 3.5's PHB. I mean, they had the same stats and only one description, but there are still basically the "woodsy"-type elves and the "magicy"-type elves. 4E just separated them into long-lost cousins.

[SmartAlec]

I was under the impression that the 3rd Ed Elf was a bit of a confused creature; had proficiency with longsword and longbow, and lived in woods, yet had wizard as a favoured class, which suggested a more civilised bent.

[-Cor-]

I had the same initial impression when I first cracked open the PHB. Why two elves? Then I realized what they did.

A race that reveres both the arcane, civilized, to each his own lifestyle (snooty) AND the natural, everything's connected, protect the earth lifestyle (hippie) are a contradiction at best. They're not the same group of people.

Well, in 4E we now have the Eladrin (snooty) who are int based arcane civilized types, and the Elves (hippie) who are the wis based hold my bow while I take a pee, get the hell out of my forest types.

I like that they're seperate, very distantly related, but completely seperate.

YMMV.

(FWIW, to me, Gnomes don't even seem a little bit elf-y.)

[Killersquid]

Wait, I'm sorry, I don't have the 4e MM (or any 4e book), but Gnomes became Elves? Or is it just similarities between the two?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Wait, I'm sorry, I don't have the 4e MM (or any 4e book), but Gnomes became Elves? Or is it just similarities between the two?

Similarities. They live in forests now, and only have Common and Elven as languages.

[Ralfarius]

Similarities. They live in forests now, and only have Common and Elven as languages.

Wait, didn't Gnomes in 3.X live in wooded hills and the like, and have the ability to talk to animals, a very nature-oriented ability? And in 3E their favoured class was Illusionist (i.e. wizard, just specialized)?

By the gods, gnomes were ALWAYS ELVES! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE!
I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE.
A LIEEEEEE!

[Alchemistmerlin]

Wait, didn't Gnomes in 3.X live in wooded hills and the like, and have the ability to talk to animals, a very nature-oriented ability? And in 3E their favoured class was Illusionist (i.e. wizard, just specialized)?

By the gods, gnomes were ALWAYS ELVES! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE!
I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE.
A LIEEEEEE!

They had talk to burrowing animals which, while naturey, I would call more "living underground" oriented. Also, languages.

[Ralfarius]

They had talk to burrowing animals which, while naturey, I would call more "living underground" oriented. Also, languages.

LIVING A LIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeee

[Talya]

I love this.

I complain that they remove all the racial subtypes.

This guy complains that they still have too many elves.

We're obviously looking for different games.

[AslanCross]

I understand this but, at least in 3.5, they weren't core and they weren't corrupting other races.

I guess that's my biggest problem. The elf cup runneth over, and spilled on other folks.

Aren't they all in the 3.5 Monster Manual?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm

(Well, okay, there are the Star Elves and Avariel from FR and the elemental-based ones in UA, but I still count more core elf subraces in 3.5 than in 4E.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

I love this.

I complain that they remove all the racial subtypes.

This guy complains that they still have too many elves.

We're obviously looking for different games.

Just goes to show that people have very different tastes

[mikeejimbo]

Wait, I'm sorry, I don't have the 4e MM (or any 4e book), but Gnomes became Elves? Or is it just similarities between the two?

They're Fey-like or something, somehow.

[TheEmerged]

Wait, didn't Gnomes in 3.X live in wooded hills and the like, and have the ability to talk to animals, a very nature-oriented ability? And in 3E their favoured class was Illusionist (i.e. wizard, just specialized)?

By the gods, gnomes were ALWAYS ELVES! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE!
I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE.
A LIEEEEEE!

Truth: in the D&D world I spent most of my 3rd edition playing time in, the DM decided that gnomes are what you get when a dwarf & elf mate. It made a frightening amount of sense...

[Alchemistmerlin]

when a dwarf & elf mate.

Ewwwwww

[Collin152]

Ewwwwww

And then you take into accoutn that there are no female Dwarves or heterosexual elves...

[erikun]

The original elf (that is, the Tolken elf) seemed to only make senseif you assumed that forests were inherently magical places - magical fountains, ley lines crossing the forest, that sort of thing. The problem is that, in D&D, most forests are just that - forests. You might run into the occasional magic forest, guarded by Treants and Dryads. However, most common forests seem populated solely by Elves, Gnolls, Rangers and Druids, just for something to be there.

And heck, Gnomes actually made better Druids than Elves.

As for 4e, Elves seem to fit a lot better now. The faster than average movement coupled with shifting through difficult terrain makes sense in a forest, and the perception bonus, bow proficiency, and Elven Accuracy sets them apart as master marksmen. They seem to fit the "woodsy elf" rather well.

The Eladrin confuse me, though. It's not their abilities - they work well to define the "arcane elf" really well. It's the fluff that doesn't make sense. If wizardly elves don't make much sense in the forest, then they make even less sense in a forest where everything is literally insane. I mean, as someone who has read Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, I cannot see anyone who spends their time in the Feywild - much less born and grew up there - as anything other than off-kilter. This fits the flavor of Gnomes to a T, but it leaves me wondering how the calm, self-assured, analytical Eladrin are supposed to fit in.

And I'm not sure how you're seeing Elves in the Gnomes - at least, no more than in 3e.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The Eladrin confuse me, though. It's not their abilities - they work well to define the "arcane elf" really well. It's the fluff that doesn't make sense. If wizardly elves don't make much sense in the forest, then they make even less sense in a forest where everything is literally insane. I mean, as someone who has read Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, I cannot see anyone who spends their time in the Feywild - much less born and grew up there - as anything other than off-kilter. This fits the flavor of Gnomes to a T, but it leaves me wondering how the calm, self-assured, analytical Eladrin are supposed to fit in.

Well, it is noted that the Eladrin do live in cities in the Feywild, which implies that they have tamed the place somewhat. Mainly, this seems to be though harnessing the superior arcane energies flowing throughout the realm with wizardry. Heck, no wonder they're arrogant - they're powerful enough to tame the Feywild (at least where they live).

[John Campbell]

D&D has never been able to handle races that were made up of individuals rather than a bunch of homogenous stereotypes. This has been true ever since the original D&D, where only humans were even allowed to pick between character classes. D&D is also derivative of a number of different sources, which provide different and conflicting takes on the various races. Combining those sources makes the stereotypes kind of schizophrenic - particularly for elves, whose portrayal tends to vary more between sources than, say, dwarves. And since D&D, for whatever reason, is incapable of giving individual elves - or even entire elven cultures - enough freedom of choice to chalk the differences up to normal variation in tastes, their solution has always been to create new subraces to handle any deviation, however minor, from the stereotype. Thus we get the race of elves that like trees, the race of elves that like magic, the race of elves that like trees even more, the race of elves that are dual-scimitar-wielding chaotic good rebels... and on and on.

4E, which has apparently made it a deliberate design principle that every race has a single distinguishing schtick, is just holding true to form.

[EvilElitest]

Because having far more types of elves than is necessary is a long-standing D&D tradition.

in Races and classes they said they were getting rid of elven subraces. And yet there are more elves than any other race so fare. Hmmmmmmmm
from
EE

[Chronicled]

the race of elves that like trees even more, the race of elves that are dual-scimitar-wielding chaotic good rebels... and on and on.

And here's 10 characters.