4e Races need Restating?

[Conners]

The core ones seem fine, but I can't get over the fact there is no statistic difference between a gnoll and a kobold (both +2 CON, +2 DEX). Also, they gave goblins and HOBGOBLINS (the military goblin race) a +2 bonus to CHR.... Something's wrong here...

For gnoll, I was thinking it might go back to basics: +4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHR.
Tempest Fennac: +2 STR, +2 CON.

Kobolds were mostly liked because they were such a weak race with such potential, this hopefully might work out to stimulate that: -2 STR, +4 DEX.
Suggested by Tempest Fennac: +2 DEX, +2 CHR.

Hobgoblins should just be as they were in 3.5: +2 CON, +2 DEX.
And goblins...? Err... this?: +2 DEX, +2 WIS/INT??

EDIT: I find more races that are unoriginal or strangely different... Minotaurs are medium sized now, I liked the idea of them being Large...
A few more possible changes:

Minotaur: +6 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CHR. ?
Orc: +4 STR, -2 INT or WIS or CHR (the player's choice). ?
To make Bugbears not alienated by gnolls new stats: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 CHR. ?


Any ideas on how to make more difference between monster-races, or how my suggested method should be changed?

[Tempest Fennac]

This should be in the Homebrew section. Due to a lack of negative stats, I'd just give Gnolls +2 to Str and Con. I'd also give Kobolds +2 to Dex and Cha due to their Dragonic connections.

[Conners]

This should be in the Homebrew section. Due to a lack of negative stats, I'd just give Gnolls +2 to Str and Con. I'd also give Kobolds +2 to Dex and Cha due to their Dragonic connections.

Hmm... perhaps I should've...
I sort of miss penalties, though . Your suggestion does make sense, however.

EDIT: Gaah ! I just realized I posted the thread in the Play-by-Post section... I meant to do it in the Gaming d20 section... Very sorry... I'll see if I can get an admin to move this.

[Starbuck_II]

The core ones seem fine, but I can't get over the fact there is no statistic difference between a gnoll and a kobold (both +2 CON, +2 DEX). Also, they gave goblins and HOBGOBLINS (the military goblin race) a +2 bonus to CHR.... Something's wrong here...

You do realize Mindflayers got Cha bonus in 3rd edition.

Charisma has nothing to do with looks.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think was refering to the idea that millitaristic societies are often made up of people who are used to following other people's instructions, which would suggest a lack of force of personality.

[ShadowSiege]

I think was refering to the idea that millitaristic societies are often made up of people who are used to following other people's instructions, which would suggest a lack of force of personality.

It would suggest someone submitting to the stronger personality or higher ranking individual. It helps persist the structure for when that person becomes the one giving orders. A militaristic society needs charisma to inspire the minions to action, through intimidation or other means.

[Grynning]

I think Hobgobbo's got a Cha bonus to give them synergy with the Warlord class, which makes sense. Military societies do need leaders.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[JaxGaret]

Minotaurs actually make more sense as Medium-sized creatures with the Oversized racial feature (the 4e equivalent of 3e's Powerful Build).

They stand less than 8 feet tall, after all. They are simply very powerfully built.

Same goes for Bugbears.

[Starsinger]

The entire idea behind the removal of racial penalties is so that while playing your favorite race class combo may not be a mechanically good choice (such as playing a grey elf wizard in 3.5), that it is no longer a bad choice (such as a half-orc bard).

Edit: Just to see what these new, improved by racial penalties races are good for...

For gnoll, I was thinking it might go back to basics: +4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHR.

Well let's see, +4 Strength, +2 Con, penalty to int and Charisma. That's.. Fighter or Ranger, possibly Melee Cleric.

Minotaur: +6 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CHR. ?

Huh... +6 Strength, +2 Con, penalty to int and charisma, oh! That's new, -2 Dex. Well let's see.. that's Fighter or Ranger, possibly Melee Cleric.

Orc: +4 STR, -2 INT or WIS or CHR (the player's choice). ?

Bonus to strength, penalty to your choice of mental stat. Well, this opens up the door for Paladin, a long with your long running standard Fighter, Ranger, and possibly Melee Cleric.

To make Bugbears not alienated by gnolls new stats: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 CHR. ?

Well let's see, Bugbears are suited for Fighter and Ranger (Suprise!), and possibly Melee Cleric. With the added bonus of Rogue and Ranger (archery this time).

Kobolds were mostly liked because they were such a weak race with such potential, this hopefully might work out to stimulate that: -2 STR, +4 DEX.

Kobolds (which I did last on purpose) are suited for Fi... sorry, for of habit. +4 Dex makes them amazing Rouges and archery Rangers.

[erikun]

Messing around with stats too much gives you unbalanced races. I mean, LA didn't work too well in 3.x, but at least it gave you an idea of what was stronger than what... do you honestly think that something with +6 STR is at the same power level as a human?

That said, a few comments:

Gnolls with DEX/CON do make sense. Gnolls tend to be portrayed as agile and flighty, making sense for DEX. They also tend to be hardy, scratching out an existance where other races would drop, warranting a bonus in CON. Blood Fury already gives them extra damage, making a STR bonus rather redundant. Plus, STR/CON makes them statistically identical to minotaurs, orcs, and warforged - I see gnolls as savage, not strong as in the above cases.

CHA is force of personality, not good looks. A race that can organize goblins and bugbears are probably highly Charismatic, making CHA a good choice for Hobgoblin.

Goblins and Kobold stats don't make much sense, though.

[Conners]

My point with the hobgoblins wasn't their looks, but the fact that military races generally aren't good with diplomacy. The Spartans got killed because they weren't diplomatic enough and everyone turned against them, I think it was.

With gnolls, I just always liked the idea of hulking beasts with mild agility (I don't really see them as quick as elves).

I was pretty tired when I wrote that, so please don't bash me too hard if I went overboard... The main thing I wanted was a statistic difference between 3 foot kobolds and 7 foot gnolls...

[Mewtarthio]

My point with the hobgoblins wasn't their looks, but the fact that military races generally aren't good with diplomacy. The Spartans got killed because they weren't diplomatic enough and everyone turned against them, I think it was.

That'd be more of a cultural thing. Hobgoblins might be quite Charismatic, but as a culture they prefer to use Intimidate and consider Diplomacy to be a sign of weakness (with non-goblinoids, at any rate).

[TheOOB]

That'd be more of a cultural thing. Hobgoblins might be quite Charismatic, but as a culture they prefer to use Intimidate and consider Diplomacy to be a sign of weakness (with non-goblinoids, at any rate).

Intimidate is also a charisma based skill.

[Artanis]

My point with the hobgoblins wasn't their looks, but the fact that military races generally aren't good with diplomacy. The Spartans got killed because they weren't diplomatic enough and everyone turned against them, I think it was.

With gnolls, I just always liked the idea of hulking beasts with mild agility (I don't really see them as quick as elves).

I was pretty tired when I wrote that, so please don't bash me too hard if I went overboard... The main thing I wanted was a statistic difference between 3 foot kobolds and 7 foot gnolls...

Sparta got killed because they kept killing all their babies, causing the population to decline until there was no way in hell they could withstand a credible enemy.

[Worira]

Intimidate is also a charisma based skill.

Uh, yes, that's the point.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are good points about Cha (I was thinking about how a majority of Hobgoblins would just follow orders from higher ranking Hobgoblins). I stilll think Str goes better with Gnolls (I don't know how big they are in 4th Edition, but I know they were around 7'6", 300 Lbs in 3.5 Edition, which suggests that they have a lot of muscle. I always thought a Dex penalty would have been more appropriate then an Int or Cha penalty due to how awkward they look).

[The Necroswanso]

D&D is a little different from Sparta people. From what I have seen from 4e idea of militaristic, someone higher ranking would need to be a, you guessed it, Warlord. Which, a charisma penalty does not help a warlord.
That of course wouldn't be the sole reason. But it gives you the idea that they didn't really want all non PHB races to be fighters or rangers.

[JaxGaret]

Gnolls are still 7-7.5 feet tall and 300 pounds in 4e. But they don't seem to be as sheerly muscular as Minotaurs or Bugbears.

A decent compromise might be to give Gnolls the Oversized racial feature instead of +2 Str. This would necessitate taking something away elsewhere; removing their Ferocious Charge racial encounter power may be enough.

[Tempest Fennac]

That could work (the lack of stat penalties seems to make balancing things more awkward a lot of the time).

[Kurald Galain]

That could work (the lack of stat penalties seems to make balancing things more awkward a lot of the time).

Well, just because WOTC's races have no stat penalties (so far) doesn't mean that they can't have them when homebrewing or restating...

I wouldn't mind playing a kobold with -2 str.

[erikun]

Gnolls are still 7-7.5 feet tall and 300 pounds in 4e. But they don't seem to be as sheerly muscular as Minotaurs or Bugbears.

A decent compromise might be to give Gnolls the Oversized racial feature instead of +2 Str. This would necessitate taking something away elsewhere; removing their Ferocious Charge racial encounter power may be enough.

This is why I think the Blood Fury ability works for the Gnolls - they're not necessarily strong, they're just vicious. They don't slice through a shield like a Minotaur would, but they'll flay anything that gives them a chance. Plus, they can do the flaying with any attacks, not just with oversized weapons.

But yeah, like I said... Goblins and Kobolds seem really off. Either -2 STR for both races, or take away one of the bonuses, or something. I'm just not sure what to give them to make up for the change (although both still make excellent rogues or rangers).

[Conners]

This is why I think the Blood Fury ability works for the Gnolls - they're not necessarily strong, they're just vicious. They don't slice through a shield like a Minotaur would, but they'll flay anything that gives them a chance. Plus, they can do the flaying with any attacks, not just with oversized weapons.

But yeah, like I said... Goblins and Kobolds seem really off. Either -2 STR for both races, or take away one of the bonuses, or something. I'm just not sure what to give them to make up for the change (although both still make excellent rogues or rangers).

They're 300 pounds and 7 feet tall--how wouldn't they be strong...?

I think my suggested method would work best for kobolds and goblins, supposedly.

[Artanis]

One thing people always forget in these discussions is that unlike in 3e, stats are not the only thing seperating races. If two races each have the same stat bonuses, there can still be VAST differences due to racial powers, skill/defense/save bonuses, feats, and the like. I mean, even if you gave identical stat bonuses to...say...Dragonborn and Elves, can you honestly say that they would even remotely resemble each other?

Actually, let's go ahead and look at the two races, ignoring the stat bonuses. Hell, let's even ignore the defense and skill bonuses and whatnot, looking only at the racial power and the paragon-tier racial feats:

Dragonborn: Can breathe fire (/cold/acid/etc.). A feat lets that AoE attack become bigger, and another feat makes them real nasty when hurt.

Elves: Can reroll an attack, and feats can have that reroll be made with a bonus.

So even if literally everything else was equal, you have:
*Dragonborn being powerful in melee regardless of class. The (element)-breathing gives them some limited controller-like capacity regardless of class, and any melee combatant is bound to take at least a few hits, giving any melee Dragonborn a bit more striking ability.
*Elves as accurate attackers who can come as close to guaranteeing a daily-power hit as the paragon tier will allow. This can drastically magnify their striking capabity - especially as a non-striker class - because when you absolutely need that "big hit" daily to get through, it will.

So as you can see, even if you completely disregard the stat bonuses and all the other bonuses a race gets, those powers and feats can make things very, very different.

They're 300 pounds and 7 feet tall--how wouldn't they be strong...?

Well, if it was 300 pounds of blubber, they might be hard-pressed to lift a bukkit, much less a heavy set of barbells

[Kurald Galain]

One thing people always forget in these discussions is that unlike in 3e, stats are not the only thing seperating races.

Because yeah, that was totally the case in 3E

I think there may only ever be sixteen races in 4E, because that's the amount of possible stat combinations. YA RLY.

Don't tell me I need to buy sarcasm detectors for everybody...

[MammonAzrael]

Personally, there are only two changes I'd make to the MM stats.

Kobolds: -2 STR, +2 DEX. In 3.5, when you went Kobold, you would up with a net -4 to your stats. Since the standard in 4th is +4, and net gain of 0 seems appropriate, and it still reflects their weak but dexterous nature.

Goblins: +2 DEX, +2 WIS. This I feel is better than CHA, which fits better on the Hobgoblin IMO. It also fits in with the flavor of goblins being more clever than bugbears (clever doesn't always mean INT smarts) and their more tribal magics.

[ImperiousLeader]

I think there may only ever be sixteen races in 4E, because that's the amount of possible stat combinations. YA RLY.

Well, there are only three two-stat combinations without any assigned races:

1. +2 STR, +2 INT
2. +2 INT, +2 WIS
3. +2 WIS, +2 CHA

[Comet]

Am I alone in thinking that the CHA bonus for goblinkind is rather awesome?

To me, that is where the real appeal for goblins lie; not in good looks maybe, but in the ability to make people see things your way. Think Shakespeare, or old folklore.
Goblins weren't the small smelly grunts following the BBEG around with pointy sticks, they were the clever tricksters, the magical merchants that you could find if you looked hard enough, the small devils that were ready, willing and quite capable to double-cross you if you ever let down your guard. That is the kind of goblin I like.

To that type, I think, charisma fits well. Sure goblins aren't handsome or cute, but they have force of personality.

[Morty]

Am I alone in thinking that the CHA bonus for goblinkind is rather awesome?

To me, that is where the real appeal for goblins lie; not in good looks maybe, but in the ability to make people see things your way. Think Shakespeare, or old folklore.
Goblins weren't the small smelly grunts following the BBEG around with pointy sticks, they were the clever tricksters, the magical merchants that you could find if you looked hard enough, the small devils that were ready, willing and quite capable to double-cross you if you ever let down your guard. That is the kind of goblin I like.

To that type, I think, charisma fits well. Sure goblins aren't handsome or cute, but they have force of personality.

The thing here is, this description of goblins doesn't really fit their entry in MM, where they are small, smelly grunts just like they were in 3ed.

[Comet]

The thing here is, this description of goblins doesn't really fit their entry in MM, where they are small, smelly grunts just like they were in 3ed.

Yeah, that is kinda what I feared. Still, the stats suit my plans just fine and the flavour stuff in the MM can be ignored.
But as the goblins remain unchanged as written, the CHA bonus does seem weird. Oh well, a little weirdnes is nothing new from WotC, right?

[JaxGaret]

Well, there are only three two-stat combinations without any assigned races:

1. +2 STR, +2 INT
2. +2 INT, +2 WIS
3. +2 WIS, +2 CHA

Sharakim would be a good 4e representative for +2 Str +2 Int. They would both fill the Half-Orc role with an interesting twist, and follow 4e's template of being the remnants of an ancient empire.

Aasimar of course come to mind as +2 Wis +2 Cha. The interesting thing is that since Angels are no longer Good but rather Unaligned, Aasimar would no longer necessarily be predominantly Good-aligned themselves

Anyone care to take a stab at +2 Int +2 Wis? Some inordinately intelligent, self-aware race - maybe the Illumians?