[4e] - AC Ponderings

[SamTheCleric]

So, I'm sitting here on my last day at my current job and slacking off... coming up with the "highest" ACs that I can manage.

The best I can get is 49 on a Fighter/Pit Fighter

Base: 10
Half Level: 15
Godplate: 14
+6 Magic: 6
Heavy Shield: 2
Pit Fighter AC Optimization: 1
Armor Specialization: 1
--
Total: 49

I can also hit a 50 in Light Armor...

Base: 10
Half Level: 15
Elderhide: 5
+6 Magic: 6
Heavy Shield: 2
Shield Specialization: 1
Pit Fighter AC Optimization: 1
Dex/Int: 10 [30 (20 base, 8 stat bumps from leveling, +2 from demigod)]
--
Total: 50

..

Is that the plateau or am I missing something?

[Zocelot]

Aside from buffs, AC is pretty straightforward. There just aren't too many way's to boost it.

That combination seems to me like it's the highest possible AC.

[Tengu]

An Inspiring Warlord with the Demigod epic destiny can give you +11 AC as long as he has something to attack and hit (as long as he doesn't have any other encounter powers readied, he can spam Guarding Attack indifinitely), for 61 AC total. Does that count?

[The Necroswanso]

Total: 50

..

Is that the plateau or am I missing something?

Depends on if you can get your Dex or Int higher really. Other than that, probably nothing more to it.

[WhiteHarness]

It sucks that light armour and gigantic Dex once again beats heavy armour, just like in 3.5. I thought 4th Edition was supposed to correct that.

I believe I disagree strongly with the decision to not allow any Dex bonus whatsoever in heavy armour. I'd like to see a feat that would allow it in the Martial Powers book due out later this year.

[AlterForm]

For Light Armor users: 51
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny
+11 from Elderhide armor +6
+1 from Armor Optimization - requires Pit Fighter Paragon Path
+1 from Staff of Defense - Warning! Together with a shield you will have NO enhancement bonus to attack and damage
+2 from Heavy Shield
+1 from Armor Specialization(Hide)
OR from Shield Specialization - these two don't stack. Feat Bonus!

For Heavy Armor users: 50
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+20 from Godplate +6
+1 from Warpriest's Training - requires Warpriest Paragon Path
OR from Armor Optimization - requires Pit Fighter Paragon Path
OR from Corellon’s Implement(Staff of Defense) - requires Wizard of the Spiral Tower Paragon Path
+1 from Staff of Defense - Warning! Together with a shield you will have NO enhancement bonus to attack and damage
+2 from Heavy Shield
+1 from Armor Specialization(Plate)
OR from Shield Specialization - these two don't stack. Feat Bonus!

source

[Indon]

Aside from buffs, AC is pretty straightforward. There just aren't too many way's to boost it.

That combination seems to me like it's the highest possible AC.

Now we need to calculate how to get attack bonuses that high so that someone can hit him.

[Thinker]

It sucks that light armour and gigantic Dex once again beats heavy armour, just like in 3.5. I thought 4th Edition was supposed to correct that.

I believe I disagree strongly with the decision to not allow any Dex bonus whatsoever in heavy armour. I'd like to see a feat that would allow it in the Martial Powers book due out later this year.

At that point "better" doesn't really matter. 50 versus 51 for a character who can't hit anything just doesn't matter. In 3.5 the problem was they weren't even close.

[MammonAzrael]

Now we need to calculate how to get attack bonuses that high so that someone can hit him.

Just quick and dirty:

Fighter Kensei Demi-God

15 from half your level
10 from stats
1 from Fighter Weapon Talent
3 from Proficiency
6 from Enhancement bonus
1 from Kensei Focus
6 from Exacting Strike (use it over and over from Demi-God's Divine Miracle)

That gives you a +42 bonus to hit right there. I know there are some powers that add a stat modifier to your attack rolls, which could be and additional +4 to hit, but I can't remember them right now. And there is also Combat Advantage, potential bonuses while bloodied, a ton of Warlord powers, etc.

So the Attack bonus can get pretty high up there...

[Artanis]

It sucks that light armour and gigantic Dex once again beats heavy armour, just like in 3.5. I thought 4th Edition was supposed to correct that.

I believe I disagree strongly with the decision to not allow any Dex bonus whatsoever in heavy armour. I'd like to see a feat that would allow it in the Martial Powers book due out later this year.

I feel pretty much the same way as Thinker. Yeah, you can theoretically get a higher number with Light armor than with Heavy, but have you actually looked at what that entails? The build that AlterForm posted involves:

--Multiclassing Wizard and Fighter, two classes that have zero synergy
--Wearing a Heavy Shield while wielding a staff, meaning that you can't actually attack with the staff.
--You need to start with an 18 in INT or DEX and a race with a +2 to that stat and pump it at every opportunity

And that's just the obvious stuff.

[SamTheCleric]

So, barring the Staff of Defense... the 49/50 AC is about as high as it gets at this point.

Not terrible... I believe Orcus and the Ancient Red both have a 48 defense... so comparable.

[Indon]

Or you could just grab 44/45 AC.

If you have 45 AC, a monster needs a... I think 22 to strength to even have a chance at all of hitting you at level 30 (disregarding 20's as auto-hit)? The magic threshold for level 30 is +4, right?

To get an even chance of hitting you, you'd need a +35 to hit, which would require a +20 to hit in addition to the level 30 level modifier.

[SamTheCleric]

Or you could just grab 44/45 AC.

If you have 45 AC, a monster needs a... I think 22 to strength to even have a chance at all of hitting you at level 30 (disregarding 20's as auto-hit)? The magic threshold for level 30 is +4, right?

To get an even chance of hitting you, you'd need a +35 to hit, which would require a +20 to hit in addition to the level 30 level modifier.

Doesn't the Ancient Red have something like a +37 to hit? That hits a 45 AC on a roll of an 8. o_O

(Hits the 49 on a roll of a 12... just about a 50/50 shot)

[Lapak]

I feel pretty much the same way as Thinker. Yeah, you can theoretically get a higher number with Light armor than with Heavy, but have you actually looked at what that entails? The build that AlterForm posted involves:

--Multiclassing Wizard and Fighter, two classes that have zero synergy
--Wearing a Heavy Shield while wielding a staff, meaning that you can't actually attack with the staff.
--You need to start with an 18 in INT or DEX and a race with a +2 to that stat and pump it at every opportunity

And that's just the obvious stuff.

Exactly. The Heavy Armor build involves a feat and a particular paragon path (which only contributes one point of the AC in the build, so it's not a disaster if you don't have it) plus expensive magical heavy armor.

The Light Armor build involves pretty much the entire build of the character, including the epic destiny, considering how much you have to throw at your Int/Dex to get there.

[Yakk]

Attack-vs-AC should be Level+3 to Level+7, about.

So a level 30 monster should have +33 to +37 to hit.

A "naive" tank build has:
Base: 10
Half Level: 15
Godplate: 14
+6 Magic: 6
Heavy Shield: 2
Armor Specialization(Plate): 1
------
48 AC

Level 30 monster hits on a 11 (soldier) to 15 (brute).

A "naive" light armor build has:
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+7 attribute mod (16 base, +8 as you gain levels = 24 stat)
+11 from Elderhide armor +6
+2 from Heavy Shield
+1 from Armor Specialization(Hide)
-----
46 AC

Level 30 monster hits on a 9 (soldier) to 13 (brute).

You can make up the difference with +4 to the int/dex stat. Demigod is what knocks you over the 'cusp' and lets you beat heavy armor wearer's AC by 1.

[Helgraf]

Exactly. The Heavy Armor build involves a feat and a particular paragon path (which only contributes one point of the AC in the build, so it's not a disaster if you don't have it) plus expensive magical heavy armor.

The Light Armor build involves pretty much the entire build of the character, including the epic destiny, considering how much you have to throw at your Int/Dex to get there.

Well, you can take Spiral Path Wizard to get the ability to use a longsword as your staff implement. The longsword only needs one hand, therefore can be used with a shield just fine.

[Helgraf]

I feel pretty much the same way as Thinker. Yeah, you can theoretically get a higher number with Light armor than with Heavy, but have you actually looked at what that entails? The build that AlterForm posted involves:

--Multiclassing Wizard and Fighter, two classes that have zero synergy
--Wearing a Heavy Shield while wielding a staff, meaning that you can't actually attack with the staff.
--You need to start with an 18 in INT or DEX and a race with a +2 to that stat and pump it at every opportunity

And that's just the obvious stuff.

You can get most of those bonuses from straight wizard if you build your attribute core correctly. It's all about being willing to take AP feats (specifically, leather, hide, hide specialization, light shield, heavy shield. If shield spec stacks, then that too, but it takes longer and is harder).


Without Shield Specialization: (3 + 3 + 16 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 22)
Eladrin (+2 Int, +2 Dex) Wizard, Staff Spec.
Str 13 Con 13 Int 18 (20) Dex 08 (10) Wis 10 Cha 10
At Level 4: +1 Str, +1 Int
At Level 8: +1 Con, +1 Int
At Level 11: +1 all
Paragon Path: Spiral Tower
Str 15 Con 15 Int 23 Dex 09 Wis 11 Cha 11
You already qualify for AP: Hide, Light Shield, Heavy Shield and AS: Hide. You may need to wait until Level 12 or retrain to get your Heavy Shield Proficiency depending on how you sequence.
Level 14: +1 something (ehh, for the hell of it, let's say Con), +1 Int
Level 18: +1 something (ditto), +1 Int
Level 21: +1 all, +2 Int (Demigod)
Str 16 Con 18 Int 28 Dex 10 Wis 12 Cha 12
Level 24: +1 Con, +1 Int
Level 28: +1 Con, +1 Int
Str 16 Con 10 Int 30 Dex 10 Wis 12 Cha 12
(Stats remain constant through Level 30)

10 Base AC
+6 Elderhide Armor w/ Specialization (+12 AC (5 Armor, 6 Enh, 1 Feat))
+6 Heavy Shield (+8 AC & Reflex (2 Shield, 6 Enh))
+1 Implement to AC
+15 Level Constant (30 * 0.5)
+10 Intelligence
-------
48 AC

48 AC. As a single class wizard.

[Colmarr]

+6 Heavy Shield (+8 AC & Reflex (2 Shield, 6 Enh))

There's no such thing as a +6 shield, so your wizard's total AC is 42.

[Artanis]

You can get most of those bonuses from straight wizard if you build your attribute core correctly. It's all about being willing to take AP feats (specifically, leather, hide, hide specialization, light shield, heavy shield. If shield spec stacks, then that too, but it takes longer and is harder).

The build I referred to required the Pit Fighter paragon path. Thus it required multiclassing Fighter.

[Helgraf]

There's no such thing as a +6 shield, so your wizard's total AC is 42.

True, but my math was wrong in two places ...

10 Base AC
+12 [+6 Elderhide Armor w/ Specialization (+12 AC (5 Armor, 6 Enh, 1 Feat))]
+02 Heavy Shield (+2 AC & Reflex)
+01 Implement to AC
+15 Level Constant (30 * 0.5)
+10 Intelligence
-------
50 AC

50 AC. As a single class wizard.

This means Orcus needs a 13+ to hit me with his highest vs. AC power (the Wand).

Of course, my Fortitude is far easier to match.

The build I referred to required the Pit Fighter paragon path. Thus it required multiclassing Fighter.

Right, which is why I said I could get most of the bonuses. I miss out on 1 point for the benefit of not having to expend 4 feats on multiclassing. In exchange I go Spiral Tower Paragon path, replace my staff with a longsword as per the ability of the Paragon path, and whammo - I get to use a shield and a sword and get the shield bonus _and_ the "staff" sword +1 bonus.

So I get less but more overall.

[Colmarr]

Fair enough. 50 is certainly impressive.

As a side issue I never really had a problem with light armour users matching the heavy armour users for AC, but it is interesting to note that your wizard used 5 of his feats to get that AC from Elderhide {Armor Prof. (Leather, Hide), Armor Spec(Hide), Shield Prof (Light, Heavy)}

Presumably a ranger or rogue using Dex as their AC ability could get close to that total for less feats.

[Helgraf]

Fair enough. 50 is certainly impressive.

As a side issue I never really had a problem with light armour users matching the heavy armour users for AC, but it is interesting to note that your wizard used 5 of his feats to get that AC from Elderhide {Armor Prof. (Leather, Hide), Armor Spec(Hide), Shield Prof (Light, Heavy)}

Presumably a ranger or rogue using Dex as their AC ability could get close to that total for less feats.

Close, yes. Anyone can get close to this, though if they don't go fighter/pit fighter or wizard/staff implement, they lose out on access to the implement or armor optimization +1.

[Yakk]

The swordmage class:
10 Base AC
+12 [+6 Elderhide Armor w/ Specialization (+12 AC (5 Armor, 6 Enh, 1 Feat))]
+15 Level Constant (30 * 0.5)
+20(!) Intelligence (added twice!)
-------
57 AC

If we limit the Swordmage to Cloth armor:
10 Base AC
+8 [+6 Cloth Armor (2 Armor, 6 Enh)]
+15 Level Constant (30 * 0.5)
+20(!) Intelligence (added twice!)
-------
53 AC

this still produces a damn-good AC, but less abusive.

[Jerthanis]

My favorite for AC is this Fighter/Pit Fighter

Base: 10
Half level: 15
Elderscale: 13
+6 magic: 6
Heavy Shield: 2
Pit Fighter Armor Optimization: 1
Shield Specialization: 1
Scale of Barkskin: 4 as a minor action daily power

That's 48 walking around, and 52 once per day. Those 4 points are ablative, and you're trading off having Soulforged plate or some other great armor type to do it.

[Indon]

Doesn't the Ancient Red have something like a +37 to hit? That hits a 45 AC on a roll of an 8. o_O

(Hits the 49 on a roll of a 12... just about a 50/50 shot)

Hmm, yeah, I forgot the bonuses to hit and such that Solos/Elites would get. Still, that is a Solo creature.

[Thinker]

Would the creature have much incentive to attack a person with such high AC? In other words, would the character have the tools to make itself a legitimate target versus anyone else?

[Tengu]

Yes. Because even the build with 20 starting int/dex can still have one other stat very high, and be a viable threat. Especially if it's a Swordmage, who uses intelligence for attacks.

And don't forget about the "tanking" class features defenders have.

[Indon]

Would the creature have much incentive to attack a person with such high AC? In other words, would the character have the tools to make itself a legitimate target versus anyone else?

At worst, a Defender imposes whatever penalties he can on the targets who refuse to attack him - essentially, it's like being able to spread some of his AC out to others.

The bigger problem, though, is enemies that can attack two defenses.