[4e] Are Half-Elves still stinky?

[quotemyname]

So in 3.x barely anyone i knew played a half elf. 90% of the time, playing either a human or an elf was just a better choice.

my question is this. 4e hits the table, do half elves still stink?

my problem comes from many areas. their stat bumps are basically only GREAT if your going warlock. and i think their racial encounter power isnt that great because the thing that makes an at will worth it, is that you can use it at will....

just a few points to talk on. lemme know what you think.

[Rachel Lorelei]

They're not at the top of the list or anything, but they're definitely not the total duds they used to be.

[Kurald Galain]

It would seem that, for every class, there exist one or more races that are mechanically superior to half-elf. To some, that would qualify as "stinky".

Indeed, the best ability half-elves have is arguably that they're allowed to take human racial feats (which happen to be among the best racial feats in the list).

On the other hand, dilettante is fun. It's just not as useful as elven accuracy, fey step, or dragon breath.

[Dausuul]

So in 3.x barely anyone i knew played a half elf. 90% of the time, playing either a human or an elf was just a better choice.

my question is this. 4e hits the table, do half elves still stink?

my problem comes from many areas. their stat bumps are basically only GREAT if your going warlock. and i think their racial encounter power isnt that great because the thing that makes an at will worth it, is that you can use it at will....

just a few points to talk on. lemme know what you think.

They don't stink. They're not as good as the other races, but at least they now have some good points - Dilettante is startlingly useful. My half-elf warlord used it to pick up Cleave, and it's helped a lot when taking out minions.

[serok42]

Half Elves are one of the best races in my opinion.

If you want stinky look at the 4e humans Bleh

So in 3.x barely anyone i knew played a half elf. 90% of the time, playing either a human or an elf was just a better choice.

my question is this. 4e hits the table, do half elves still stink?

my problem comes from many areas. their stat bumps are basically only GREAT if your going warlock. and i think their racial encounter power isnt that great because the thing that makes an at will worth it, is that you can use it at will....

just a few points to talk on. lemme know what you think.

[ghost_warlock]

Half-elves appear to make decent warlocks and passable paladins. Dilettante is useful for picking up powers from classes the multiclass feats don't initially allow you to have (such as the cleric at-wills if you wanted one for some reason); admittedly, though, it will likely be used more regularly to pick up eyebite or one of the paladin Cha-based powers.

Having Con as a buffed stat is never a bad idea.

If you want stinky look at the 4e humans Bleh

Humans are best used for classes with the least MAD. Fighters and wizards, imo. Maybe rogues. Meh.

[Kurald Galain]

Having Con as a buffed stat is never a bad idea.

It usually isn't a good idea either, because to most classes it only nets you two hit points and a healing surge. That's not particularly relevant.

It doesn't take much in the way of optimization to realize that all classes have one or two "prime" ability scores and are therefore best combined with any race that boosts such a score. Turns out that for most classes, half-elf is not such a race.

Humans are best used for classes with the least MAD. Fighters and wizards, imo. Maybe rogues. Meh.

Yes. I believe the best ability humans get (other than having better racial feats than most other races) is an additional at-will power. However, not every class or build really benefits from this.

[Joran]

Yes. I believe the best ability humans get (other than having better racial feats than most other races) is an additional at-will power. However, not every class or build really benefits from this.

Oddly, one of the least MAD (multiple attribute dependent) class, the Laser Cleric, benefits least of all from the extra at-will that humans get.

Clerics have four at-wills, two wisdom-based, two strength-based, and for optimization's sake, taking the two that's your primary attribute is best.

P.S. Action Surge alone makes elves pretty helpful. Dilettante is pretty fun as well.

[wodan46]

Humans are best at Wizards and Fighters because both focus overwhelmingly on Int and Str respectively, with Wis and Con useful but non-critical secondaries, and both have at least 3 useful At-Wills. They are best at Level 1, wherein they have an extra skill and an extra feat, which is a lot less impressive when you have a dozen feats.

However, +1 to non-AC defenses is nothing to be sneezed at, and neither are the human racial feats.

Half Elves are quite good, their racial encounter power being any At-Will gives them good flexibility. They do best as Cha paladins, but are also good at being Warlocks and Warlords.

[Helgraf]

Half-elf Warlord with Warlock MC. And Thunderwave from Wizard as your Dil.

[The New Bruceski]

Half-elf Warlord with Warlock MC. And Thunderwave from Wizard as your Dil.

So Charisma-based with one encounter power that requires Int and Wis?

My Warlord took Eyebite so he can get away when he needs to.

[Nu]

A half-elf rogue with Eyebite could be interesting. Plus the half-elf gets a bonus to Charisma, which is good for the Artful Dodger rogue.

[Helgraf]

So Charisma-based with one encounter power that requires Int and Wis?

My Warlord took Eyebite so he can get away when he needs to.

Eyebite, yes. And yes, the Cha-based Warlord build. I'll have to hunt down the build I put up for this fellow at level 1.

Ahh, here we go. There's some minor errors in the build progression section, but the general gist of what it's aiming for should be apparent.

[ghost_warlock]

It usually isn't a good idea either, because to most classes it only nets you two hit points and a healing surge. That's not particularly relevant.

It's also an extra 0.5 hit point healed from a healing surge, but that's not exactly 'relevant,' either.

It doesn't take much in the way of optimization to realize that all classes have one or two "prime" ability scores and are therefore best combined with any race that boosts such a score. Turns out that for most classes, half-elf is not such a race.

Well, duh. No one asked if half-elf is 'teh uber race of win buttons.' It's good for a couple classes, okay for others, and not-so-great for the rest. Half-elves should be fine for any class that directly benefits from Con or Cha. Classes that don't benefit from these stats are obviously not a great choice for half-elves.

Yes. I believe the best ability humans get (other than having better racial feats than most other races) is an additional at-will power. However, not every class or build really benefits from this.

Once again, humans shouldn't be 'teh best race evah' and not every class/build should be optimal when based on a human.

[skywalker]

Eyebite, yes. And yes, the Cha-based Warlord build. I'll have to hunt down the build I put up for this fellow at level 1.

Ahh, here we go. There's some minor errors in the build progression section, but the general gist of what it's aiming for should be apparent.

It is amazing how similarly we built our half-elf warlords aside from the warlock multi-class...

INT is a tertiary stat for even Inspiring Warlords, so I'm thinking thunderwave isn't that bad a choice... Helgraf and I both picked it for our Dilettante power... You know I've been talking about half-elves too much lately when I can spell dilettante without thinking about it...

OP, half-elves don't synergize perfectly with a class(or classes) like some other races, and HED can be either crap or awesome, but they're really cool for certain classes.

So no, they're not teh suk like they were in 3rd... but they're also not teh pwn like they were back in old D&D...

Plus, half-elves are just plain cool... Your best choice for an inspiring warlord if you don't want to be a stupid lizardman

[ghost_warlock]

So no, they're not teh suk like they were in 3rd... but they're also not teh pwn like they were back in old D&D...

Heh, that reminds me of all the half-elven mage/clerics I made in AD&D 2e. That race/class combo was basically a 'win button' for Dungeon Hack.

[TheOOB]

Half-Elves work just fine. Their stat bonuses are decent, +2 Con is good for everyone, even if only one class uses it for their attacks, and +2 Cha is good for several classes(warlock, paladin, cleric, and warlord all use it to some extent, half the classes isn't bad). The ability to take human feats is quite useful(I'm not too fond of the elf feats myself, but more options never hurt), and dilettante can be used to splash some useful abilities that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get (baring the warlock and wizard ones which can be gained through multiclassing).

They aren't the greatest race out there, I might even go as far as to call them the worst race IMO, but they they are still very playable (worst in 4e still equates to good). Whether you are playing one for role play purposes, or you have a legitimate statistical reason to play one (star pact warlocks love those stats) you won't feel left out compared to your party.

[skywalker]

Heh, that reminds me of all the half-elven mage/clerics I made in AD&D 2e. That race/class combo was basically a 'win button' for Dungeon Hack.

I was thinking more along the lines of (pre-)1st edition, when race was randomly generated, and maybe, just maybe, when you got that one percentage die roll that meant you could be half-elf, you prayed that you could roll stats good enough to qualify for bard. Doing both was nothing short of superhuman.

I play half-elves mainly for the flavor, and as such I'm perfectly happy to have them just plain not suck. If I wanted to optimize, I'd play a dwarf.

If CON is the important stat for Infernal Warlocks, why aren't half-elves highly rated for those, too?

[ghost_warlock]

I was thinking more along the lines of (pre-)1st edition, when race was randomly generated, and maybe, just maybe, when you got that one percentage die roll that meant you could be half-elf, you prayed that you could roll stats good enough to qualify for bard. Doing both was nothing short of superhuman.

I play half-elves mainly for the flavor, and as such I'm perfectly happy to have them just plain not suck. If I wanted to optimize, I'd play a dwarf.

If CON is the important stat for Infernal Warlocks, why aren't half-elves highly rated for those, too?

Optimization or not, I've always hated dwarf fluff so I can't stand to play them. Except the occasional gully dwarf from Krynn when I wanted to annoy my fellow games.

Half-elves should do fine as any type of warlock. IMO, they're the best race for infernal warlocks since they can specialize in the Con-based infernal stuff and stick pick up the occasional vs. Cha ability since they also get a bonus to that stat. The real confusion is when you consider that tieflings, who flavor-wise should be great infernal warlocks, don't have a bonus to Con so are actually better as fey warlocks.

[Gralamin]

Optimization or not, I've always hated dwarf fluff so I can't stand to play them. Except the occasional gully dwarf from Krynn when I wanted to annoy my fellow games.

Half-elves should do fine as any type of warlock. IMO, they're the best race for infernal warlocks since they can specialize in the Con-based infernal stuff and stick pick up the occasional vs. Cha ability since they also get a bonus to that stat. The real confusion is when you consider that tieflings, who flavor-wise should be great infernal warlocks, don't have a bonus to Con so are actually better as fey warlocks.

Infernal Warlocks like Half-Elves and Dwarves about the same. Tieflings have a lot of merit if you took Hellfire Blood and ignore the level 1 Infernal Encounter powers, since the higher level powers are fire and fear based. If Tieflings had a Con bonus, they would be the Infernal Warlock of choice by far.

[ghost_warlock]

Infernal Warlocks like Half-Elves and Dwarves about the same. Tieflings have a lot of merit if you took Hellfire Blood and ignore the level 1 Infernal Encounter powers, since the higher level powers are fire and fear based. If Tieflings had a Con bonus, they would be the Infernal Warlock of choice by far.

That's right, I forgot about Hellfire Blood. Also nice for some of the powers from other pacts, too. Star pact seems to have more than a couple fear-based powers, too.

I had never considered dwarves as warlocks...but, then, I don't usually consider dwarves at all when planning a character! I put together a dwarf melee ranger, for a sample pregen, but otherwise I tend to steer clear of them. I have such a long-standing dislike of dwarves in games that they'd have to have +2 to every stat, all of their standard racial stuff, and dilettante as well for me to consider playing one...and then I'm probably end up just complaining about how 'broken' they were!

[Orzel]

Half-Elves are good. Their stat bonuses are decent, 2 HP, a surge, and +1 to 2 saves for most. Then Grabbing an at will as an encounter is okay to awesome depending on class. And you can take feats from 3 classes. And the skill bonus and they're a nice race. Not a powergamer race but an unique one. My ranger doesn't mind if my party's defender has Righteous Brand. Makes sure my daily hits.
Righteous Brand, Tide of Iron, Hit and Run, Riposte strike, Furious Smash, Holy Strike, Twin Strike


Orzel hearts all the other good STR at wills.
1/2 elf + STR based class = Happy

[Jerthanis]

I'd also like to point out that the difference in stat blocks between a Half-Elven Ranger and an Elven Ranger, one of the worse choices for Ranger versus one of the very best... the most difference you'll probably see in the end is 5% less chance to hit, and a few powers working slightly less well in an abstract sense. If you're trading that off for the fact that you want to roleplay a Half-Elven Ranger instead of an Elven one, it's not going to kill your ability to have fun with mechanics. It's not a nigh-insurmountable obstacle like playing a Dwarven Bard or a Halfling Fighter in 3.5 might have been.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd also like to point out that the difference in stat blocks between a Half-Elven Ranger and an Elven Ranger, one of the worse choices for Ranger versus one of the very best... the most difference you'll probably see in the end is 5% less chance to hit, and a few powers working slightly less well in an abstract sense.

And, of course, a higher movement rate and the accuracy power.

[Helgraf]

And, of course, a higher movement rate and the accuracy power.

Traded off for the versatility. As a small aside, the other advantage of the half-elf 'at-will from another class as encounter' is that it still follows all the other rules for the at-will, including the damage pump at 21st level.

Tangent:
Incidentally, there's also nothing keeping you from choosing your Dilettante power from the same class you select a multiclass feat for, thus getting you two features from the same class (one at will as encounter, and one as specificied by the MC feat taken, which may or may not be another at will as encounter), and thus allowing you to lend an even heavier 'feel' to your multiclass blend.

[Blackdrop]

Tangent:
Incidentally, there's also nothing keeping you from choosing your Dilettante power from the same class you select a multiclass feat for, thus getting you two features from the same class (one at will as encounter, and one as specificied by the MC feat taken, which may or may not be another at will as encounter), and thus allowing you to lend an even heavier 'feel' to your multiclass blend.

Could you imagine how awesome a Half-elf (Con/Cha based class)/Warlock would be, particularly if you took eldritch blast in conjunction with your Pact at-will? That would work well with an Avenging Paladin, methinks.

[ghost_warlock]

Could you imagine how awesome a Half-elf (Con/Cha based class)/Warlock would be, particularly if you took eldritch blast in conjunction with your Pact at-will? That would work well with an Avenging Paladin, methinks.

Meet Klace Tethryn, paladin...of death, one of the first toons I made in 4e.

[Torchlyte]

Half-Elves are the best race for Paladins because the Cha paladin is superior to the Str paladin. Use dilettatne to grab Eldritch Blast or Eyebite and you're set.

Edit: Also, imagine a Half-Elf Rogue using dilettante to open with a (ranged) Twin Strike each encounter.

[Kurald Galain]

Edit: Also, imagine a Half-Elf Rogue using dilettante to open with a (ranged) Twin Strike each encounter.

That's not such a great combo since you only get SA on one of the shots.

[quotemyname]

Half-Elves are the best race for Paladins because the Cha paladin is superior to the Str paladin. Use dilettatne to grab Eldritch Blast or Eyebite and you're set.

Edit: Also, imagine a Half-Elf Rogue using dilettante to open with a (ranged) Twin Strike each encounter.

funny you should mention that. a guy in my group is playing a paladin of the raven queen, a half elf to boot. thats kinda why i started this thread. we were having this whole arguement the other day i just wanted to see what you guys thought.

so they're not the best, and might even be the worst race... but i guess they are still worth playing if you want the flavor