I finally figured out how to express what I think about 4e

[Pirate_King]

First, this is not a negative. I like 4e, and I look forward to running the game I have in mind for it when I go back to school. I like the world, I like the dragonborn more than I ever expected to, I like the idea behind tieflings, I'm not to fond of the difference between eladriel and elves, but whatever, I can make that work. Anyhow, for a while I've been trying to figure out how to explain my views on the change, and I think I've got it:

I drive a 61' Corvair. I love it. It's got some tricks, and it can give my girlfriend trouble when she tries to drive it, but I know how it works. It's not necessarily the most effective vehicle by itself, but I can do more with it than most people can do with a modern car. As efficient and useful and versatile as my car can be, it needs someone who knows how to run it to be that way. 3.5 is kind of like that. It's an easily breakable game; that was the cost of the near infinite possibilities of the characters you could make, the hundreds of spells available to those who could cast them. The problem was that with the right combination of feats and spells, super-powerful monstrosities of PC's were possible. 4e fixed a lot of balance issues, particularly with spellcasting. The cost of making the caster no more or less powerful than any martial class was to limit the way spells work. When I played 3.5, I rarely ran into those problems because the people I usually play with aren't big on the metagaming, they pick they're spells and feats for reasons that fit the character and however the campaign was running. 4e eliminates those problems, and even provides rules for non-combat encounters, instead of giving us a handful of non-combat skills and leaving the rest to the DM's imagination. I like how 4e has balanced the classes seemingly indefinitely, created an easy system to use skills, and the xp budget and enemy classifications is a far easier way for me to judge what PC's can handle than CR. Anyhow, I'm getting away from my metaphor. The point is, 4e is simple and streamlined, easy for anyone to use, where 3.5, like my car, takes some getting used to for the average person. I think 4e is a good thing, but it'll never stop me from enjoying an older classic.

[Pirate_King]

Well, I didn't feel too much like digging, and I just had the car epiphany, and all the 4e threads on the first page seemed to relate to a specific part of it. I was just sharing a general opinion. Usually the internet in general seems to welcome such things. I didn't want to argue about which one is better, I just wanted to share an analogy I thought fitting.

[Covered In Bees]

Well, I didn't feel too much like digging, and I just had the car epiphany, and all the 4e threads on the first page seemed to relate to a specific part of it. I was just sharing a general opinion. Usually the internet in general seems to welcome such things. I didn't want to argue about which one is better, I just wanted to share an analogy I thought fitting.

Okay. Mission accomplished. A lot of people are switching to 4E but aren't going to abandon 3.5 completely (for now, at least), so you're not alone.

[Stycotl]

Well, I didn't feel too much like digging, and I just had the car epiphany, and all the 4e threads on the first page seemed to relate to a specific part of it. I was just sharing a general opinion. Usually the internet in general seems to welcome such things. I didn't want to argue about which one is better, I just wanted to share an analogy I thought fitting.

don't worry, dude. some people get uptight over inane things. not a big deal.

i prefer to think of 4e as a computer game. fun. amusing. nice graphics. once you reach level 30, you've won the game--time to move on. that's about it.

3.5 is enfuriating sometimes, but it has some wiggle room at least. so that will remain my primary medium for now--though white wolf occasionally takes the front seat as well.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, I have seen a couple more threads similar to this as well, people basically stating what they personally think about 4e. Im surprised there isnt a "What do you think about 4e' thread by now.

don't worry, dude. some people get uptight over inane things. not a big deal.

i prefer to think of 4e as a computer game. fun. amusing. nice graphics. once you reach level 30, you've won the game--time to move on. that's about it.

I fail to see whatever logic you used to come up with that response. In fact, I don't even get what you are saying, all it sounds like is a blatent assault to the people who enjoy the system.

How does your description of 4e differ from the other editions? Why is it that you feel a deeper connection with your characters in 3e than in 4e?

/sigh I need to stop looking into this section of the forum, all it ever does is make me want to hit something.

[Pirate_King]

How does your description of 4e differ from the other editions? Why is it that you feel a deeper connection with your characters in 3e than in 4e?

Don't worry, people will get used to it, probably after they get used to rp'ing skill challenges. I don't feel less connected to my characters in 4e, I just like I can't make quite as many different kinds. Take my first cleric idea; I had to change it to a paladin because it didn't make any sense as a cleric. I wanted to make a Cleric of the Raven Queen, but clerics are necessarily focused on healing, where as they had much more versatility in 3.5, and I didn't feel like a Cleric of a god whose primary message dealt with the inevitability of death would make sense as a heal-bot. I like the Paladin I pulled out of it, in the end, and I really like his story, but I still wish I could have made him a cleric. I probably could have, if I just tweaked the class features a bit, but I really wanted to get started on the new system and figure it out before I house-ruled too much.

[Eldmor]

So 4e is a monorail? It's safe, streamlined, not easily broken, and gets you where you're wanting to go. And I'm stealing this analogy.

[Covered In Bees]

Don't worry, people will get used to it, probably after they get used to rp'ing skill challenges. I don't feel less connected to my characters in 4e, I just like I can't make quite as many different kinds. Take my first cleric idea; I had to change it to a paladin because it didn't make any sense as a cleric. I wanted to make a Cleric of the Raven Queen, but clerics are necessarily focused on healing, where as they had much more versatility in 3.5, and I didn't feel like a Cleric of a god whose primary message dealt with the inevitability of death would make sense as a heal-bot. I like the Paladin I pulled out of it, in the end, and I really like his story, but I still wish I could have made him a cleric. I probably could have, if I just tweaked the class features a bit, but I really wanted to get started on the new system and figure it out before I house-ruled too much.

"Cleric" is a class with certain mechanics (BTW, you could fluff a Cleric of the Raven Queen as taking his enemies' life-force and giving it to his allies; fits with the "attack + temp HP" powers). You had a character concept--a worshipper of the Raven Queen who does X and Y. That's what you made.
You could still make the concept, just not with the class you first reached for. Making characters in 4E is a matter of finding the class that fits best. For example, if you're making a military archer, you take Ranger and don't take the Ranger skill; Rangers aren't woodsy hunter types by default anymore.

[Wizzardman]

/sigh I need to stop looking into this section of the forum, all it ever does is make me want to hit something.

Well, in all fairness, its been like that for everyone of late, personal 4E opinions regardless. I think most people [including Covered in Bees] are sick of the infighting, and are anxiously awaiting the day when the war finally ends, and forumgoers who persue this section can get on with their lives.

Unfortunately, everyone's expects their opinion to be the clear victory, and as such, irritation gradually transmogrifies strong opinions into harsh language and flaming, and the war continues.

Eventually, we either run out of fuel for our flameguns, or the fight eventually leads to a permanent schism, and WotC declares that we've always been at war with Eastasia... er... 3.5.

1984 references aside: I find that both 3.5 and 4E are flawed in their own special ways, but, considering how much work I have already put into making 3.5 work properly, I see fairly little reason to start over on 4E, and kick its rear into gear.

4E has its perks:
Being a fighter no longer sucks, but to be fair, I've never been bored playing a fighter.

Fighting classes get a whole bunch of cool sounding abilities with what appears from the outside to be a weak connection to physics or internal consistency (which D&D has never been perfect at), let alone actual martial arts or fighting styles, but are quite fun to play with in game.

Said new abilities often focus on various combat advantages that, at least in my opinion, function mostly on taking advantage of the rules themselves, rather than trying to work out some specific action, and often leave the fluff up to the player's imagination--which is nice, as long as the player knows what he/she is doing, and the PCs don't bother to nitpick the real-world flaws in his/her action.

4E has its problems:
They forgot to add fluff to all the monsters in the MM (except for Gnolls, who now cannot be reasoned with), which means the DM can make up whatever he/she wants for his/her setting. Unfortunately, DMs could already do that, and all this removal did is make it impossible for DMs to be lazy, and/or grab ideas and plothooks from premade suggestions in the book. Here's a secret to DMing: being lazy is good. PCs are good at messing things up, so having some logical premade material to fall back on makes life a lot easier when the PCs unexpectedly happen to something in your story.

The ritual list is relatively short, so a lot of the truly fun and useful spells got tossed out the airlock. Wizards can no longer batman everything in sight, true, but they've lost a lot of what makes them fun as well; now, in order to defeat a hungry dragon, a wizard must actually kill it, rather than just casting Horrible Taste on himself. You can always try to remake these, but the casting time is somewhat limiting, and that again requires more work.

Finally, some parts of the action system seem a little internally inconsistent, at least from my point of view. Why are spells restored after "resting"? Wouldn't a fatigue system manage a rest-based spell restoration system better than just "you must rest now?" Shouldn't Con be a factor pertaining to when I need to "rest"?

Again, all these can be easily fixed if you sit down and beat the fluff into the proper shape... but who really wants to sit down and beat on fluff all damn day twice? If I'm going to beat on fluff, it should at least be about something new (like a new plot idea) rather than something old (like how magic works again).

Well, I've stated my opinions now. Let the war continue.

So 4e is a monorail? It's safe, streamlined, not easily broken, and gets you where you're wanting to go. And I'm stealing this analogy.

Sure. Its also expensive and comes from Japan.

[skywalker]

Unfortunately, everyone's expects their opinion to be the clear victory, and as such, irritation gradually transmogrifies strong opinions into harsh language and flaming, and the war continues.

Eventually, we either run out of fuel for our flameguns, or the fight eventually leads to a permanent schism, and WotC declares that we've always been at war with Eastasia... er... 3.5.

I'd hope that eventually all the flamers would be banned, but reinforcements keep showing up

Not all monorails come from Japan(and that is a durn good analogy, altho I'm not sure it's inflammatory enough ).

[shadow_archmagi]

You have to start a new thread to post your opinion because all the 4e discussion threads get locked, and the ones that don't rapidly grow to 12 pages and who wants to read 12 pages of random people bickering?

[ArmorArmadillo]

A well articulated opinion.

To be honest, I'd been toying with a similar analogy, that 3x was like an old car that you fixed up to work just like you like it, and 4e was one of these new Japanese imports with all these new features you're not familiar with.


You express it very well.

[Dairun Cates]

You have to start a new thread to post your opinion because all the 4e discussion threads get locked, and the ones that don't rapidly grow to 12 pages and who wants to read 12 pages of random people bickering?

While I don't agree with Covered in Bees's language and style of commenting, I do agree with the sentiment that it's not of the utmost importance that we hear everyone's opinion on Fourth Edition. There are actually threads currently on the board where this would be appropriate to post on. The question is, as clever as the analogy is, where can the discussion in this thread really go that the other Fourth Edition discussion threads haven't?

Wouldn't it logically follow that if these threads are getting locked because of flame wars ensuing that maybe we shouldn't be starting more of them?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -Albert Einstein

[ShaggyMarco]

I think 4ed is like a video game.

But not like just ANY video game...it is like Rock Band

It gives me a chance to get together with a handful of my friends, select a series of challenges that are overcome by the same basic mechanics, but each have a very distinct flavor that brings varying levels of fun, and a distinctly different type/level of challenge to each of us, depending on the instrument (role) we play.

When I am the Drummer (Striker) I can very easily score the team lots and lots of points (do lots of damage). That said, in certain situations I can very easily get in over my head and if I fail, the band is in trouble. That's why I rely on the Lead Guitar Player (defender) to deploy overdrive when I am about to fail out (mark the enemy beating on me) and the Bass Player (leader) to keep me up and running by deploying Overdrive whenever I am out (he's heals me), not to mention their abilities to optimize my point scoring ability by going into Overdrive (flanking with a defender/getting buffed by a leader). That said, I would be lost in the song if it wasn't for the Singer (controller) keeping up with the words and letting us know which part of the song we are in (Battlefield Control).

When I am the Lead Guitar Player (Defender) I can make sure to hold the group together, saving up my Overdrive to bring faltering allies back from the red (marking the opponents bothering them.) In a pinch, I can deploy overdrive and/or rock out a solo and score pretty good points for the group, even if those points will rarely be quite as good as the Drummer (Striker) can score. I have to work closely with the Bass Player (Leader) to make sure that one or the other of us is able to take care of the rest of the party in a pinch.

When I am the Bass Player (Leader) I don't deploy Overdrive willy-nilly because it will never get me all that many points anyway. I deploy it to maximze the group's overall point-scoring ability (buffing the party to put them in optimal combat form). In really difficult songs, I save Overdrive to bring people who fail out, usually the Drummer (striker) or Lead Guitar Player (defender), back into the song. I am not usually the most glamourous instrument in the band, but I can be the difference between 4 and 5 stars; or in a really tough song, the difference between 5 stars, and 5 GOLD stars.

When I am the Singer (Controller) I keep eveyone in the song by making sure they know where the song is going and which part of the song we are in. I have to work closely with the others, paying attention to when and where they are at their best so that i know just when to go into overdrive to optimize our score (Battlefield Control). It is especially important to coordinate with the Drummer to make sure our rhythms are together. If they aren't, then the other insturments tend to get lost and fall apart. (Striker/Controller damage focusing tactics).

Yes, when we play together we are doing the same basic things over and over (sing the words, strum/push buttons, play the drums, all deploy overdrive) but it is the way we do these things in concert that makes the evening fun and worthwhile.

[Wizzardman]

I'd hope that eventually all the flamers would be banned, but reinforcements keep showing up

Not all monorails come from Japan(and that is a durn good analogy, altho I'm not sure it's inflammatory enough ).

Yeah, sorry about that. I was trying to be humorous.

[Pirate_King]

The question is, as clever as the analogy is, where can the discussion in this thread really go that the other Fourth Edition discussion threads haven't?

I think 4ed is like a video game.

But not like just ANY video game...it is like Rock Band

[comical analogy]

perhaps just that. inspire other analogies that don't necessarily bash a system, just help express the actual differences, or are just amusing.

[quick_comment]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -Rita Mae Brown

Fixed that for you. (Other things Albert Einstein probably never said: that thing about the demise of the bees bringing about the end of humankind, and the one with the logic problem that supposedly only such-and-such percent of the population would be able to solve.)

[Ralfarius]

Honestly, I'd have to say that I support CIB.

He's laying it on the line for all of us who've grown tired of trying to challenge people to really substantiate 4e nay-saying. He's repeatedly explained that he's okay with people disliking the system, but what gets him up in arms is the lack of reasonable articulation.

Yes, CIB comes across as abrasive, but that's just passion coming through. He's also quite astute in most of his observations, they just happen to be drowned out by the fact that he comes across as hateful and aggressive.

CIB is not your enemy. He just wishes you'd stop saying "4e = MMORPG/WoW/etc" when you could instead say "I don't like 4e because Wizards have less power" or "I'm not crazy about the sliding mechanics" or "I prefer the pile of supplements I already have for 3.5/I don't feel like changing right now."

CIB gets up in arms for very specific reasons. Reasons I can find actually quite understandable. Don't worry, once this all dies down, I'll bet we'll forget exactly how heated some of these discussions got, or the specifics of who wished death upon whom, and so life will go on.

[Jade_Tarem]

Honestly, I'd have to say that I support CIB.

He's laying it on the line for all of us who've grown tired of trying to challenge people to really substantiate 4e nay-saying. He's repeatedly explained that he's okay with people disliking the system, but what gets him up in arms is the lack of reasonable articulation.

Yes, CIB comes across as abrasive, but that's just passion coming through. He's also quite astute in most of his observations, they just happen to be drowned out by the fact that he comes across as hateful and aggressive.

CIB is not your enemy. He just wishes you'd stop saying "4e = MMORPG/WoW/etc" when you could instead say "I don't like 4e because Wizards have less power" or "I'm not crazy about the sliding mechanics" or "I prefer the pile of supplements I already have for 3.5/I don't feel like changing right now."

CIB gets up in arms for very specific reasons. Reasons I can find actually quite understandable. Don't worry, once this all dies down, I'll bet we'll forget exactly how heated some of these discussions got, or the specifics of who wished death upon whom, and so life will go on.

Nobody is going to remember anything about CIB from this time period except his avatar. I can't feel negative emotions while looking at it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Honestly, I'd have to say that I support CIB.

He's laying it on the line for all of us who've grown tired of trying to challenge people to really substantiate 4e nay-saying. He's repeatedly explained that he's okay with people disliking the system, but what gets him up in arms is the lack of reasonable articulation.

Yes, CIB comes across as abrasive, but that's just passion coming through. He's also quite astute in most of his observations, they just happen to be drowned out by the fact that he comes across as hateful and aggressive.

CIB is not your enemy. He just wishes you'd stop saying "4e = MMORPG/WoW/etc" when you could instead say "I don't like 4e because Wizards have less power" or "I'm not crazy about the sliding mechanics" or "I prefer the pile of supplements I already have for 3.5/I don't feel like changing right now."

CIB gets up in arms for very specific reasons. Reasons I can find actually quite understandable. Don't worry, once this all dies down, I'll bet we'll forget exactly how heated some of these discussions got, or the specifics of who wished death upon whom, and so life will go on.

Laying himself on the line? What line? What self?

The OP, as far as I can tell, never said 4e was inferior or like a memorpegger.

Passion? Passion over people's opinions on the internet? Lol wut?

[Prophaniti]

I'm with shadow_archmagi on this one. CIB seems a bit too passionate about this particular issue. I understand, I myself was surprisingly passionate about 4e, though on the other end of the scale (as in, I felt 4e was an unmitigated disater), and had a good number of posts lambasting the changes (Tieflings a base race?!?!?! Not in my D&D!). I've cooled down quite a bit since then, and have actually played a game of 4e. Do I like it now? No, not in the least. I have, however, decided it's not worth getting upset over, on either side of the issue. All of my problems with the system sooner or later boil down to matters of taste, and what I want from the RPG system I use. These are merely opinions, and mine is no more universal or correct than anyone else's.

So the next time you see a 4e thread with a subject line that makes you go "What?! I'll skin that idiot!", you may want to just take a deep breath, step back for a moment, and consider whether what they say is opinion or fact before getting emotional.

(BTW, whether 4e is like a video game is definitely a matter of perception and opinion, and not right or wrong unless based on eroneous facts, like 4e has/encourages load-bearing bosses. It doesn't, so if I based my opinion on that, then the facts my perception is based on would be wrong. If I based it off the existence of Elite monsters, they would be entirely correct, even if you don't feel that makes 4e like a video game. It's an opinion, not empirical fact.)

The funniest analogies I remember seeing was the thread where they were comparing 4e to girlfriends, but the Rockband one is really good.

[Pirate_King]

The funniest analogies I remember seeing was the thread where they were comparing 4e to girlfriends, but the Rockband one is really good.

link to that? or do I have to dig? that sounds amusing. also,

[Ralfarius]

Laying himself on the line? What line? What self?

A bit of a misunderstanding. I didn't say laying himself, but rather used the vernacular:

He's laying it on the line

lay it on the line (informal)
to tell someone the truth although it will upset them. You're just going to have to lay it on the line and tell her her work's not good enough.

The OP, as far as I can tell, never said 4e was inferior or like a memorpegger.p

I'm not necessarily saying CIB is completely correct in every regard, here. I'm just voicing a general support of CIB when everything else is slings and arrows. My intention, overall, was to just show CIB that CIB's opinions are not alone out there.

Passion? Passion over people's opinions on the internet? Lol wut?

Sure, why not? I mean, people are passionate about deriding 4e, I think people can also be passionate about calling various statements out.

Nobody is going to remember anything about CIB from this time period except his avatar. I can't feel negative emotions while looking at it.

Truly, CIB's mark has been made.

The funniest analogies I remember seeing was the thread where they were comparing 4e to girlfriends, but the Rockband one is really good.

Hah hah hah! Yeah, I'd have to agree 100% on that one.

I mean, the fact that I even piped up to say "CIB isn't all bad" elicited a noticeable, negative response just shows this sort of we-need-to-all-calm-down attitude that Prophaniti expressed. CIB perhaps could stand to take a few deep breaths and let something go, but then, couldn't we all? I mean, there was a little bit of jumping down my throat happening. I'm okay with that, as I expected to take a few jibes for what I finally sat down and typed.

Really, it's like I said before. It'll all pass, eventually. Such is the way of the internet forum.

[RukiTanuki]

I think 4ed is like a video game.

But not like just ANY video game...it is like Rock Band

While I find this post hilarious, I'm surprised that I didn't see the inevitable counter-metaphor:

"Rock Band has turned the world of pretending-you're-a-famous-band into tactical button-pushing. It stripped the experience of all the features that simulated girls, drugs, and roadies, and those features made a band what it is. It's no longer about hanging with my friends and making music, it's about pushing buttons on my WoW treadmill."

[ShaggyMarco]

While I find this post hilarious, I'm surprised that I didn't see the inevitable counter-metaphor:

"Rock Band has turned the world of pretending-you're-a-famous-band into tactical button-pushing. It stripped the experience of all the features that simulated girls, drugs, and roadies, and those features made a band what it is. It's no longer about hanging with my friends and making music, it's about pushing buttons on my WoW treadmill."

It has taken much of the long, arduous time-committment out of feeling like you can successfully perform along with your friends and become a cohesive unit. (They took Rules-Mastery largely out of the system allowing players of all levels--casual to masters--the ability to play together on a playing field where no-one is worthless) That said, you still have to master the basics of rhythm and in the case of singers, pitch.

[Viruzzo]

Also, with only 5 buttons, you can't do those mind-numbing riffs that blew the audience away in seconds.

[Helgraf]

It has taken much of the long, arduous time-committment out of feeling like you can successfully perform along with your friends and become a cohesive unit. (They took Rules-Mastery largely out of the system allowing players of all levels--casual to masters--the ability to play together on a playing field where no-one is worthless) That said, you still have to master the basics of rhythm and in the case of singers, pitch.

And bully to them for doing so!