The Anti-Osmium bomb

[kentma57]

I used to have a page that explains how the thing works in my favorites and I even printed a copy; but my favorites got wiped out and my hard copy got recycled. So can anyone offer me up the mechanics?

[mikeejimbo]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...35#post2010735

[Swordguy]

Damn. Beat to it. Went on a forum search and forgot it was in my sig...

[Waspinator]

It's pretty simple. You take Eschew Materials and then use Major Creation to make as much antimatter as you can of the densest metal that you can find.

[mikeejimbo]

Damn. Beat to it. Went on a forum search and forgot it was in my sig...

Hahah, I actually searched for your username so I could find your signature and get to it from there.

[Waspinator]

It's a pretty easy strategy for the DM to block, though. A simple question of "Why would your character even know what anti-matter is?" can kill it. Same thing as Druids turning into extremely obscure and overpowered creatures. Why would they necessarily in-character know about it?

[Chronicled]

It's a pretty easy strategy for the DM to block, though. A simple question of "Why would your character even know what anti-matter is?" can kill it. Same thing as Druids turning into extremely obscure and overpowered creatures. Why would they necessarily in-character know about it?

"Because my character is a bookworm who spent all his childhood reading about theoretical physics and sci-fi. Medieval sci-fi, so they were imagining refrigerators, but there you go."

As for the Druids: "My character worked at a zoo."

[Neon Knight]

A simple question of "Why would your character even know what anti-matter is?" can kill it.

Well, positive energy has an opposite, negative energy. Why not a positive matter/ negative matter dualism? Thus anti-matter.

[Wizzardman]

"Because my character is a bookworm who spent all his childhood reading about theoretical physics and sci-fi. Medieval sci-fi, so they were imagining refrigerators, but there you go."

As for the Druids: "My character worked at a zoo."

There's no need for that long winded explanation. Just point out that your species is "Gnome." If your species is not Gnome, then your doing it wrong.

...Also: medieval science fiction is a brilliant concept. Thank you. You have now caused me to envision Eberron's equivalent of Star Trek. I must now go forth and bestow this idea upon my hapless players.

Well, positive energy has an opposite, negative energy. Why not a positive matter/ negative matter dualism? Thus anti-matter.

...How would he know it EXPLODES?

[arguskos]

...How would he know it EXPLODES?

Just point out that your species is "Gnome."

He wouldn't, but being a gnome, he's legally obligated to assume so until otherwise stated.

-argus

[nobodylovesyou4]

another quick way for a DM to defuse the anti-osmium bomb is for him to point out that osmium as an element was not discovered until 1803, thus ruling out most plausible explanations for the character to even know about it, much less anti matter and its capablities.

[Chronicled]

There's no need for that long winded explanation. Just point out that your species is "Gnome." If your species is not Gnome, then your doing it wrong.

Excellent point.

...Also: medieval science fiction is a brilliant concept. Thank you. You have now caused me to envision Eberron's equivalent of Star Trek. I must now go forth and bestow this idea upon my hapless players.

Do let us know how it turns out/develops.

...How would he know it EXPLODES?

A little something we like to call "trial and error."

[Behold_the_Void]

Out of curiosity has anybody EVER successfully convinced their DM to let them do this? I can't think of even the most doormat of a DM letting this crap fly.

[Emperor Tippy]

Out of curiosity has anybody EVER successfully convinced their DM to let them do this? I can't think of even the most doormat of a DM letting this crap fly.

Anti-matter? No. KEW's and nukes? Yep.

[arguskos]

I got to do the squirrel nuke once, but never the Anti-Osmium bomb (though I just called it the anti-matter nuke).

-argus

[quiet1mi]

another quick way for a DM to defuse the anti-osmium bomb is for him to point out that osmium as an element was not discovered until 1803, thus ruling out most plausible explanations for the character to even know about it, much less anti matter and its capablities.

divination on a large scale and a couple of nat. 20s later...

To kill it I would do what I always do to kill crazy ideas... i ask them to explain it to me as if i had no knowledge in physics and how your bomb works,(down to the detonator and the reactions and how it is contained or controlled) if he can do all that i will let him make it/ do it.

[AgentPaper]

I got to do the squirrel nuke once, but never the Anti-Osmium bomb (though I just called it the anti-matter nuke).

-argus

And what, exactly, is a squirrel nuke?

[Swordguy]

another quick way for a DM to defuse the anti-osmium bomb is for him to point out that osmium as an element was not discovered until 1803, thus ruling out most plausible explanations for the character to even know about it, much less anti matter and its capablities.

Doesn't matter. If "it's not a historically accurate game" is a good enough reason to squelch a whole HOST of complaints about the system, then you don't get to use historical accuracy as a way to squelch this.

Like the DMG says - (paraphrased from the Core Assumptions page): "It may be based on reality, but it’s a blend of real-world cultures and physics is a heavy dose of fantasy. Saying that “something works like this in the real world” as a justification to overturn a game convention or rule is not a valid reasoning in this system if the system has a rule contradicting said historical justification. It doesn’t matter, for example, what historical paladins were like – the only thing that matters are what paladins are like in this fantasy world."

And if the DM's dumb enough not to realize that this gives him ample justification in and of itself to say "there's no rule covering the fact that antimatter exists in my world, so I'm making one up to say there isn't", then he deserves whatever he gets. But...it's RAW-legal, just like Pun-pun.

[ghost_warlock]

And what, exactly, is a squirrel nuke?

Essentially, a fireball-type effect using a spell from BoVD (I believe) and a squirrel as a detonator. (The spell causes a target creature to explode, killing it and dealing massive damage to everything nearby.)

[lord_khaine]

And if the DM's dumb enough not to realize that this gives him ample justification in and of itself to say "there's no rule covering the fact that antimatter exists in my world, so I'm making one up to say there isn't", then he deserves whatever he gets. But...it's RAW-legal, just like Pun-pun.
Today 02:28 AM

im actualy not even sure its as legal as Pun-pun, for major creation only allows you to create matter, if thats not the same as anti-matter then the bomb fail before it starts.

[Swordguy]

im actualy not even sure its as legal as Pun-pun, for major creation only allows you to create matter, if thats not the same as anti-matter then the bomb fail before it starts.

*shrug* It's the same to physics, more or less. Simply an opposite charge on the protons and electrons. A positively charged electron and a negatively charged proton would form an anti-hydrogen atom just like an electron and a proton form a normal hydrogen atom. Find me a rule in D&D that explicitly says you can't...

Of course, if we don't accept that things like protons and electrons in D&D exist, then what is the iron in swords made from? If you accept that iron exists, then you accept that the building blocks of iron exist. Which (through a convoluted chain of physics equations that I'm not at all qualified to discuss) means that anti-matter exists.

Further, since the colloquial definition of matter is "anything that has mass and takes up space", (and WotC is NOT in the habit of using the "technical" as opposed to the colloquial definitions for words) the wording in the SRD allows for antimatter to be summoned as a result of the spell, since antimatter definitely has mass and takes up space (until it interacts with matter, at least). Heck, here's definition 2b from Merriam-Webster:

A material substance that occupies space, has mass, and is composed predominantly of atoms consisting of protons, neutrons, and electrons, that constitutes the observable universe, and that is interconvertible with energy

Antimatter fills all of those qualifiers.

/I'm glad to get away from the 4e stuff and get back to mass catgirl slaughter, by the way.

[Viruzzo]

Antimatter fills all of those qualifiers.

Actually, it does not. Antimatter is formed by antiparticles, so it's antiprotons and positrons.
* animates the catgirls he has just killed *
Now we're talking: zombie catgirls, attack!

Well, positive energy has an opposite, negative energy. Why not a positive matter/ negative matter dualism? Thus anti-matter.

There is a fair difference between some random theory thrown around and the effective knowledge of what antimatter is.
And imagine: "bunnies are white and cute (and weak), so there may be an animal which is the complete opposite. I summon BLACK BUNNY, DESTROYER OF WORLDS!". Feels a lot Seiken Densetsu.

But anyway, if you let your players reach by whatever mean a knowledge in physics comparable to modern, then you're open to so many other knowledge exploits that it won't matter what bombs they are crafting.
Besides, why go for the Standard Model? Unified Field Theory! Theory of Everything!

[TheCountAlucard]

If you guys are gonna start playing with physics, soon we'll have players objecting to the fact that dragons can fly without a wingspan of 600 feet...

Besides, if there's an explosion, there should be a Reflex save for half damage, and that means that one in twenty rogues WILL survive unharmed.

[Chronicled]

If you guys are gonna start playing with physics, soon we'll have players objecting to the fact that dragons can fly without a wingspan of 600 feet...

They have methane sacks in their bodies, of course. How else do you explain the nonmagical fire?

[monty]

*shrug* It's the same to physics, more or less. Simply an opposite charge on the protons and electrons. A positively charged electron and a negatively charged proton would form an anti-hydrogen atom just like an electron and a proton form a normal hydrogen atom. Find me a rule in D&D that explicitly says you can't...

I'd hesitate to say that. All common matter is made of up and down quarks, and electrons. All "common" antimatter is made of antiup and antidown quarks, and positrons - entirely different particles altogether. Matter is not the same as antimatter; they are two distinct sets of particles (twelve each, not counting the force particles, if I remember right). I know that there's something relevant in the way the strings are set up, but I don't know enough about that to even try to explain it (and, naturally, since it's still mostly speculation at this point, it could all be wrong anyway).

Of course, it really gets complicated if you start going into the particles with a quark and an antiquark (i.e. pion+/0/-, which is ud/dd/uu/du), so it's just better to not go into it at all.

Long story short, I'm pretty sure that matter and antimatter are not the same thing.

[Chronos]

The big problem with the standard anti-osmium bomb is that Eschew Materials only allows you to bypass material components of negligible cost, and "a small amount of antimatter" is most assuredly not negligible in cost. Ignore Materials would work, but that's an epic feat, and by that time, you've got enough other ways to destroy the planet, and what's one more?

Shadow Conjuration, however, doesn't need the material components of the spell it's mimicking, so there's no worrying about cost. But that just raises a whole new host of questions...

Of course, if we don't accept that things like protons and electrons in D&D exist, then what is the iron in swords made from? If you accept that iron exists, then you accept that the building blocks of iron exist. Which (through a convoluted chain of physics equations that I'm not at all qualified to discuss) means that anti-matter exists.

You've got to be careful with this reasoning... We know that the laws of physics are different in D&D, for the simple reason that the laws of physics we're familiar with don't allow magic. One could just as easily argue that the fundamental building blocks of iron are mostly elemental earth, with a little bit of elemental fire mixed in to temper it. Anti-earth is of course air, and anti-fire is water, so in D&D, the anti-matter equivalent of iron would be a cloud of fine mist.

[Swordguy]

The big problem with the standard anti-osmium bomb is that Eschew Materials only allows you to bypass material components of negligible cost, and "a small amount of antimatter" is most assuredly not negligible in cost. Ignore Materials would work, but that's an epic feat, and by that time, you've got enough other ways to destroy the planet, and what's one more?

Shadow Conjuration, however, doesn't need the material components of the spell it's mimicking, so there's no worrying about cost. But that just raises a whole new host of questions...

You've got to be careful with this reasoning... We know that the laws of physics are different in D&D, for the simple reason that the laws of physics we're familiar with don't allow magic. One could just as easily argue that the fundamental building blocks of iron are mostly elemental earth, with a little bit of elemental fire mixed in to temper it. Anti-earth is of course air, and anti-fire is water, so in D&D, the anti-matter equivalent of iron would be a cloud of fine mist.

Eschew Materials allows you to ignore materials with a listed cost of 1gp or less (and costs not listed are assumed to be zero, for all intents and purposes). I don't see a listed cost for antimatter of any sort, do you?

The issue with your last paragraph is that - well, what parts of physics can you throw out of the game? Gravity? Inertia? Any part you don't agree with? How about air? (If you want to say it's all Elemental Air, then you shouldn't ever run out of air in an enclosed, airtight space, because you're not breathing out CO2 - just putting the Elemental Air back where you found it, and can breathe it right back in again). It's really, really dangerous to pick and choose, because a choice on one front can lead to stuff you didn't think of. Some parts of physics are definitely part of the game universe. TNT, for example, has rules - which means it exists, and everything that makes it work exists. Otherwise, it's not TNT, it's something else a lot like it, but it's not "Trinitrotoluene"

Viruzzo: What about the common, colloquial definition of "matter", than I can guarantee WotC was thinking about when they wrote the spell? Has mass and takes up space? That bit?


Really, this is two arguments. The first is a DM-specific question: what parts of real-life physics work in their games? The second is a RAI/RAW question - was WotC using (for the sole instance in their books) the "technical" definition of a word, or the colloquial, common definition?

[Viruzzo]

Eschew Materials allows you to ignore materials with a listed cost of 1gp or less (and costs not listed are assumed to be zero, for all intents and purposes). I don't see a listed cost for antimatter of any sort, do you?

That doesn't mean it has a negligible cost, else that would be true for every single material (which is also quite a generic definition) that is not listed. No price = your DM has to houserule it.

The second is a RAI/RAW question - was WotC using (for the sole instance in their books) the "technical" definition of a word, or the colloquial, common definition?

My answer wasn't serious, I would never debate on such a thing as the supposed definition of "matter" by WotC. I am not that nerdy!

[SparkMandriller]

That doesn't mean it has a negligible cost, else that would be true for every single material (which is also quite a generic definition) that is not listed. No price = your DM has to houserule it.

"Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."

Them's the rules, boss.

[Emperor Tippy]

"Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."

Them's the rules, boss.

Which technically means that your spell component pouch is filled with artifacts (no listed price and are a material component for apocalypse from the sky).