[4e] History? Lame. It's Education!

[Nad]

Climbing? Swimming? Jumping? These skills are familiar to all of us who came up through 3.0

In 4e, we've rounded up and placed these into "categories" ie all of the above into Athletics... the same for all skills down the list

except... History!

Why is this single skill here out of the rest? That's a specific part of knowledge and it irritated me to see this here. I've come up with the house rule that History is the broader group, it's your character's education.

That way when they use this skill it represents their abilities with their learned academics... not just history class. If they try and do complex math in character (figuring out the angle that a pillar will fall to ram open a sealed door), the ability with which they read/write, how they understand the workings of politics, etc... all of this I'm rolling up into history.

Anyone else do something smiliar? Any suggestions as to the sub-categories? I'm looking to mimic the other skills and have some benefits to this one.

[Tellah]

History stands out because it has the most direct bearing on the kinds of knowledge characters need in most games. Generally, adventurers go out to ruins of past civilizations and kill the creatures living in them, and if you want more knowledge about the ruins, History is your skill of choice.

That said, your proposal to replace History with Education seems sensible, if your game goes more in that direction. Short of that, though, remember your ability checks. Math, literacy, knowledge of politics, and other things not under a particular skill can all be done with an Intelligence check.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think they wanted to leave out any chance of a skill that could be used for "theoretical physics" and "knowledge of anti-osmium".

[Stormageddon]

Don't get me started on the new 4ed skills. Why on earth would you get better at climbing if all you're charter had been doing was swimming. Or the other way around. To do those things requires more than just pure muscle there are seperate skill sets. If one thing they did with the new eddition that was truely aweful it was dumbing down the skills so much. While I agree that some skills from 3.5 could be gotten rid of, but it was way to much for my taste.

As for why history stands alone. They probably just couldn't think of another catogory to bunch it in with.

[Nad]

Just seems to me they would role it up into "Knowledge" instead of History.

And no, they're not going to abuse it and say "I know quantum physics because I've got 8 points!" but that person would have a very good education.

[Dan2]

The way I see it, they threw in History as a skill all its own because of one of the conceits of the game.

"The world is ancient."

History is your ticket to knowing more about what used to be. They figured that it would come up more often than the other knowledge skills being considered.

To me, it signified more than just academics. A character may not have had the ability (or willingness) to go to a school (or whatever else you'd call the place where he learned).
However, even if he didn't it would make sense for him to be able to have a grasp of what happened long ago through fables, old bard's tales, or other sorts of stories.

To me, Education seems like a skill that could only have been obtained by going to a school or some sort.

Also, if your qualm about History is that it came from 3.5 unaltered, then you are incorrect.
History also serves as Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and to an extent, Knowledge (Local) (which has been split with Streetwise).

I also approve of Tellah's advice to use an Intelligence check to cover math and things like that. Although, for your pillar scenario, Dungeoneering would be my pick.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Just seems to me they would role it up into "Knowledge" instead of History.

And no, they're not going to abuse it and say "I know quantum physics because I've got 8 points!" but that person would have a very good education.

Who are "they" in your statement? I hope you're not including all D&D players in that.

[chiasaur11]

Must... resist... pink... floyd... reference.

Huh. Are there other skills listed that could fit into education?

Just thinking.

[Treguard]

Hey, stop discriminating towards all the non-academics out there!

Seriously though, a barbarian could tell you that you don't need fancy "book learning" to tell you about the history of a particular land, a clan or tribe's ancestry and so on. I like the history skill the way it is.

[EvilElitest]

Hey, stop discriminating towards all the non-academics out there!

Seriously though, a barbarian could tell you that you don't need fancy "book learning" to tell you about the history of a particular land, a clan or tribe's ancestry and so on. I like the history skill the way it is.

Them don't need no edumacation.
Them don't need no th-ought kontr0ll
know darc sar-schism in the klass rom
T-ch-er leave themed cids alone

This message is brought to you by 4E barbarian. Grrrrr
from
EE

[Burley]

Honestly, I don't know why you're complaining about History... History compiled Knowledge (History), (Local), and (Nobility/Royalty) together. If you're gonna complain, complain about Dungeoneering.
Dungeoneering didn't change AT ALL!

Besides, the bigger picture is that D&D is (usually) set in medieval times, especially 4e. This is the type of timeframe that not knowing the name and heritage of certain people could get the crap beat out of you.
History alone is worth the Jack of Trades feat.

[EvilElitest]

Honestly, I don't know why you're complaining about History... History compiled Knowledge (History), (Local), and (Nobility/Royalty) together. If you're gonna complain, complain about Dungeoneering.
Dungeoneering didn't change AT ALL!

hmmm what?
from
EE

[Draco Dracul]

They don't need no edumacation.
They don't need no th-ought kontr0ll
No dark sar-schism in the klass rom
T-er leave themed cids alone

This message is brought to you by 4E barbarian. Grrrrr
from
EE

What 4E barbarian?

[EvilElitest]

What 4E barbarian?

exactly think about it
from
EE

[KillianHawkeye]

We have History for the same reason we have Arcana, Religion, Dungeoneering, and Nature. Those are the knowledge skills that can't be simplified any further.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I know that the Neverwinter Nights PC games did something like this. Instead of multiple knowledge skills, like normal 3.5, it was all covered by a skill called "Lore".

[Thinker]

What 4E barbarian?

He's obviously talking about the uncivilized folks in people's 4E games. He couldn't possibly still be complaining about a company trying to make money after all these months.

[EvilElitest]

He's obviously talking about the uncivilized folks in people's 4E games. He couldn't possibly still be complaining about a company trying to make money after all these months.

thanks you for the straw man, i was actually responding to the quote at hand, through i suppose paranoia wins the day again
from
EE

[Pirate_King]

That way when they use this skill it represents their abilities with their learned academics... not just history class. If they try and do complex math in character (figuring out the angle that a pillar will fall to ram open a sealed door), the ability with which they read/write, how they understand the workings of politics, etc... all of this I'm rolling up into history.

I dunno, I think the angle thing might fall under thievery or dungeoneering, and the workings of politics would be a diplomacy. Still, an interesting concept. I kind of miss the craft skill, maybe that could fall under education.

[Thinker]

thanks you for the straw man, i was actually responding to the quote at hand, through i suppose paranoia wins the day again
from
EE

Ah yes, the condescending tone. I don't think I have to read your posts to know what you're saying. "I'm right, everyone else is wrong and if anyone calls me on it, it was just unwanted commentary."

[EvilElitest]

Ah yes, the condescending tone. I don't think I have to read your posts to know what you're saying. "I'm right, everyone else is wrong and if anyone calls me on it, it was just unwanted commentary."

Um, thank you paranoia again. honestly, "you don't need to read my post to know what is says" So your not only ignoring the actually post in question (which makes a mention of barbarians in the thing i was quoting) your being hypocritical, because that is basically what your doing, going "EE says this, and is a close minded fool, and i have hte right to ignore all evidence to the contrary"

i made no reference to calling 4E people barbarians, my quote was a very evidence pink lloyd reference
your attack is not only irrelevant, it is bad form, and quite rude, and your response is simply insulting
from
EE

[Thinker]

Um, thank you paranoia again. honestly, "you don't need to read my post to know what is says" So your not only ignoring the actually post in question (which makes a mention of barbarians in the thing i was quoting) your being hypocritical, because that is basically what your doing, going "EE says this, and is a close minded fool, and i have hte right to ignore all evidence to the contrary"

i made no reference to calling 4E people barbarians, my quote was a very evidence pink lloyd reference
your attack is not only irrelevant, it is bad form, and quite rude, and your response is simply insulting
from
EE

And I wasn't talking about you talking about people who play 4E being less civilized, I was referring to tribes in various campaigns.

[EvilElitest]

And I wasn't talking about you talking about people who play 4E being less civilized, I was referring to tribes in various campaigns.

eh what not? You made a reference to games, and a company making money, what?
from
EE

[Starsinger]

eh what not? You made a reference to games, and a company making money, what?
from
EE

I believe he took your "4e barbarian" comment to mean something along the lines of "4e barbarians, which don't exist because 4e is a video game". Or something remarkably similar to your usual posts. Particularly evidenced by someone's asking what 4e barbarian and your, "Exactly". To which his comment about money was in reference to the fact that Barbarians will be coming, you just have to be patient and willing to purchase a book. Or, as Rutee would say were she not banned "Boy howdy, we here at WotC sure do like money!"

Edit: Also, yes. History ate Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). But they very well couldn't call it Knowledge (Stuff). And of the three, History is the least obnoxious term. I know, had I a skill called "Local" on my sheet, I'd be endlessly amused by it to say the least. Furthermore, Social Studies is a weird term for the skill as well.

HAND,
Star

[Prophaniti]

I've always been in favor of more complicated skill systems, covering as many things as is feasible for you and your group. Sure, you can condense knowledge skills or athletics or crafting if you want, but I'm with Taim, up at the top of the thread. Olympic swimmers are not often also world-class tightrope walkers. Some skills should not be simplified too much. For knowledge skills (and a few others), all I do is add a Knowledge (General) skill, which represents all the little random facts you might pick up. You can use it in place of any knowledge skill, though at a higher, sometimes a lot higher, DC. I've always been a fan of the 3.5 skill system, with the exception of a few things, and felt it was really easy to make work just by giving everyone a decent amount of skill points.

As far as what the OP said, I like it, History being used to represent actual academic knowledge, though I think I would actually rename it Education or Academics to prevent confusion.

[EvilElitest]

I believe he took your "4e barbarian" comment to mean something along the lines of "4e barbarians, which don't exist because 4e is a video game". Or something remarkably similar to your usual posts. Particularly evidenced by someone's asking what 4e barbarian and your, "Exactly". To which his comment about money was in reference to the fact that Barbarians will be coming, you just have to be patient and willing to purchase a book. Or, as Rutee would say were she not banned "Boy howdy, we here at WotC sure do like money!"

So an example of bringing stuff over from other threads? Isn't there a rule against that? Bad form
from
EE

[Prophaniti]

It's ok, EE, I saw the sarcasm for the light-hearted and innocuous thing it was. Not everyone feels the need to read deeper meanings behind funny phrases like a psych grad student. 'Course, maybe Thinker IS psych grad student, and that's ok. I just don't like psychology. Freud was a quack, IMO.

[EvilElitest]

It's ok, EE, I saw the sarcasm for the light-hearted and innocuous thing it was. Not everyone feels the need to read deeper meanings behind funny phrases like a psych grad student. 'Course, maybe Thinker IS psych grad student, and that's ok. I just don't like psychology. Freud was a quack, IMO.

i doubt it was light hearted so much as defensive, but anyways, i'd much rather focus on my first post's merit

Them don't need no edumacation.
Them don't need no th-ought kontr0ll
know darc sar-schism in the klass rom
T-ch-er leave themed cids alone
from
EE

[Jayabalard]

hmm, just a thought: you might want try to phrase titles a bit better; you're lucky that you didn't get a bunch of responses of

Yeah, I totally agree that 4e is lame

Properly wording your titles will help head off that sort of thing.

Math, literacy, knowledge of politics, and other things not under a particular skill can all be done with an Intelligence check.

Makes sense to me.

[Aquillion]

Making history 'education' doesn't work (remember, religion, arcana, and nature are all alive and well -- and both religion and arcana would be logical parts of any education, at the very least. Possibly nature too, in the form of the natural sciences. Hey, there's your anti-osmium skill -- your character is a 'natural philosopher', or what we would call simply a 'scientist' today, whose studies of the natural world have been rigorous and have lead to an understanding of biological evolution, atomic theory, gravity, relativity, and various other important things. All these things are 'natural' and fall under the 'nature' skill.)

Still, the thing is, all the other knowledges have actual important uses now, regardless of whether or not the DM remembers to use them. History doesn't, really -- you could have, say, a history roll to remember ancient legends about the ruins your in that lead to discovering a secret door or whatever, but the DM has to do that specifically; it's very hard to 'find' a use for the skill when the DM doesn't deliberately toss you a bone. That's a problem, and one they eliminated with almost every other skill in 4e.