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2008-07-29, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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So, do you think 4E is catching on?
I'm curious as to whether fourth edition is actually going to overcome 3rd edition in popularity. Does anybody have any insight into what the split is right now? My total guess, leaving 10% for prior edition/spinoff players, is something like:
3.5/Pathfinder: 60
4E: 30
TSR editions & spinoffs (like C&C): 10
Of course I realize that the same person can play both games, so I guess these percentages reflect actual games in play. I imagine that many people are trying out 4E right now, but I wonder if those same people are going to go back to 3E exclusively after doing so.
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2008-07-29, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Draper, Utah
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
4th is getting pretty big. Swing through the PbP section of the forums and about half the D&D games are 4th.
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2008-07-29, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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2008-07-29, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2006
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- cocoa beach, fl
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Probably too early to tell. 4e is still new enough that a lot of people are trying it out, therefore lots of 4e games. We still don't know what their final choice will be though.
My personal opinion is that I will stick with a modified 3.X as my main game, but I'd also play 4e if it was available. However I don't have enough 4e experience to say that's my final decision yet.DMs don't cheat, they just change the rules.
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't" -Margaret Thatcher
"Celebacy is no match for a natural 20!" -RandomNPC
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2008-07-29, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- around...
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
4e will catch on, seeing as most people who are just starting DnD will pick up 4e. when i first starting playing a few years back, i didnt pick up adnd, i got 3.5 because thats what was out. in a few years, 3.5 will be surpassed by 4e.
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2008-07-29, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Couldn't tell you. I read the 4E PH, loathed and despised it, and went back to 3.5 ... so I have little or no interest any more in what's going on with 4E.
Bwaha! I have deep-seated emotional problems! Die! Die! Die!
Games Workshop: Miniatures First. Rules Second. Clarity Last
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2008-07-29, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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2008-07-29, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Very probably, also considering that 4e is easily much more newbie-friendly than 3.5...or any previous edition, for that matter. It guides you through the mechanics, provides a section on roleplaying, and setting up a character by choosing class powers is incredibly easy. Combat is rather smooth, it seems. All in all, a good game for the new players to get into.
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2008-07-29, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Toronto, Canada
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2008-07-29, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
I do not think it is popular in this area. This is due to most DMs in the area wanting to play at the lower levels, and combat sucks for 4E at the lower levels. This leads to massively drawn-out battles that take up most of two sessions because no one can hit a damn thing even with a 15+, a number of DMs who just try to get the combat finished so they can get back to the ICRPing, and the crap they call experience (I've all ready house ruled out the rules for dividing the XP amongst the party because of how pathetic it is).
I myself want to switch systems and go back to 3.5, solely due to how much more entertaining it is to make a character than it is in 4E. The sheer diversity alone makes up for the time it takes, as I've yet to see anyone in my group play the same character twice (save for my little brother, who I pretend doesn't exist due to how obstinate and anger-driven he is).
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2008-07-29, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
What? Compared to what? I'll take level 1 in 4E over level 1 in any previous edition any day. "20, you die" isn't a good thing.
This leads to massively drawn-out battles that take up most of two sessions because no one can hit a damn thing even with a 15+
I submit that if your battles are taking up most of two sessions, somebody is doing something wrong. Our Brutal Scoundrel rogue was hitting with an AB of +8 for 2d6+2d8+12 or so, and that's with an encounter power. Enemies didn't last too long.
a number of DMs who just try to get the combat finished so they can get back to the ICRPing, and the crap they call experience (I've all ready house ruled out the rules for dividing the XP amongst the party because of how pathetic it is).
I myself want to switch systems and go back to 3.5, solely due to how much more entertaining it is to make a character than it is in 4E. The sheer diversity alone makes up for the time it takes, as I've yet to see anyone in my group play the same character twice (save for my little brother, who I pretend doesn't exist due to how obstinate and anger-driven he is).
Edit: on-topic, 4E is definitely gaining popularity around here. A lot of people are hearing good things, trying it for themselvs, and having a good time.Last edited by Covered In Bees; 2008-07-29 at 10:48 PM.
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2008-07-29, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
I personally am happy with 3.5e. That's what I own, and it's what I know. I have the PhB, DMG and MM on PDF, but, although a friend has started a campaign in 4e, I'm about to start one in 3.5e. 4e seems fairly popular, although most of my friends agree that although 4e is more balanced, we've think that 3.5e is more fun.
Sadly, however, I cannot buy any more 3.5e stuff at the local gaming store.For the last time, it stands for Shadow of Darkness!
Thankin' Nevitan fer me babytar!
Kasaad Shadowweb-Chitine Paladin of Freedom (now a clickable link!).
Genderbender week comin' up! SoDess by Bisected8 *applause*
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2008-07-29, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Oh gods i wish i knew
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Bees, and a lot of people are catching on to the flaws
But anyways, 4E is popular because its new and exciting, and simply to learn. There is a lot of dislike of it, but that isn't anything new. Personally, i think that 4E will gain popularity, but not as much as 3E did to 2E. reasons why
1) Minor, but 3E is closer to 2E than 4E to 3E, easier transition. Not that there weren't and still are people who strongly support 2E, just less
2) Still minor with the internet more powerful, anti 4E people can make their options know much loudly and more annoyingly than earlier. In teh same note however, 4E can advertise just as easliy
3) Personally, i think people will start looking for better quality, and 4E will lag for a while, then more new people, who have only played 4E will come and 4E will get back on its feet (providing WotC doesn't do anything stupid) and keep rising
4) The only option not realated to my dislike of 4E, 3E had something that 4E did not. An open game license. If you want to publish in 3E, you don't have to get WotC permission, just go ahead (can't use stuff like mind flayers and what not, but you can still use a 3E like system). 4E doesn't have that, and so unlike when 2E went to 3E, there already powerful companies (not WoTC level of course) that can publish 3E just as 4E comes out, like Paizo
from
EE
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2008-07-29, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
The risk makes it more fun, IMO. A number of my fellow DMs agree that 4E doesn't have that sort of risk or chance. And most of the players I have make characters who can withstand a crit from a spear or scythe, thank you. They have some very serious tricks up their sleeves.
First-level characters are hitting defenses of 15-18 with attack bonuses of +4-8 (and +2 situational, and buffs, usually).
I submit that if your battles are taking up most of two sessions, somebody is doing something wrong. Our Brutal Scoundrel rogue was hitting with an AB of +8 for 2d6+2d8+12 or so, and that's with an encounter power. Enemies didn't last too long.
One of the problems is that a DM who wants a fast-paced campaign at the lower levels can't have it, because any attempts to level the party up without using DM Fiat ends up with someone in the negatives making Death saves every round. The party I play with could handle a Mature Adult White Dragon at ECL 5th in 3.5. Now in 4E they can barely stand up to a Kruthik at 2nd level.
What's wrong with it?
You can't say the same for core-only 3E. It'd take you quite a long time to get through all the 4E core options.
In the end, some of us do not find the system effective. Some of us prefer the gaps in power to the obvious failure that results when the party fights.
I'll cite an example for you. A 2nd level party was put up against a Giant Beetle in 4E. To put it plainly, they got lucky. The thing went down after the Paladin and Wizard rolled crits on the damn things with their daily powers. The Paladin had all ready blown through his uses of Lay on Hands, and the Ranger in the group was below bloodied. The Cleric? Dead. Not because of the beetle though. He outright quit mid-fight the previous session after being humiliated by a Kruthik who doesn't even get hit for 19 (yes, exact count) rounds. When I handed out XP for each of those encounters, they were furious over the measly 35 XP per person, which is the RAW for a CR 2 encounter, and even the full 150 XP from the CR 4 beetle didn't budge their opinion on the CR/XP system.
I even put them up against a CR 10 trap, and let them BS the entire ordeal with it, and they got less XP than they did for the CR 4. Granted, I was using the RAW for XP when I threw the trap at them, but still... Its rather pathetic when a party gets less for a CR 10 than they do for a CR 4.
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2008-07-29, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Piercing the Heavens
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
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2008-07-29, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Oh gods i wish i knew
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
guys, i remind you of the open game license
from
EE
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2008-07-29, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
EE's got a point there. The GSL is the single worst legal document most of us will ever have the displeasure to read. This coupled with the Pathfinder RPG marks a decent split in WotC's original market.
But it's not definitive. As WotC has stated repeatedly, they hope to bring new blood in with 4e. Seeing all of the pros 4e has going for it, it shouldn't prove too hard for them as long as the word gets out. This on top of some of the original base's distaste over 3.5's many flaws should cement 4e as a solid edition (if not the most popular or successful [though only time will tell on these points.])
Overall, I think 4e's popularity is in an unstable place. On the one hand, it's popular, carries the namebrand of roleplaying and is enjoyed by many gamers, both old and new. On the other hand, it's coming off of an edition with a much better gaming license which translates to 3rd party support which, if nothing else, contributed to D&D's status as a key rpg. That and the radical changes between the two editions has split the fanbase and, unlike the 2e/3e jump, 3.x supporters have a new product to turn to for new updates: Paizo's Pathfinder RPG. In my opinion, WotC's moves over the next year are going to be pivotal in 4e's long-term success.
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2008-07-30, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Knoxville, TN
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
This sounds really, really bad but there actually is some truth to it. The amount of XP you get for a potentially lethal encounter in 4e does not seem appropriate. I hadn't thought of it before it was brought up, but it is true. Sometimes, it is incredibly hard to hit enemies while it seems like they're destroying you with their +11 to hit. That means they hit a character with ac 16 75% of the time
To me, this actually makes 4e encounters potentially more lethal, especially at low levels.
All of that being said...
I think 4e is becoming pretty popular. My DM is the manager at my local game store. He says sales of 4 edition books have been very good. Then again, he is a Wizards fan boy. For one, 4th Edition has found traction in that group. We won't be going back... In my other group, I'm about to start DM'ing Keep on the Shadowfell. So far, it seems rather popular.
Overall, I think 4E is making its statement, and will become the dominant form of D&D by the end of 2008.I am continuing to have a social life. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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2008-07-30, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Who can withstand a crit from a spear or scythe at level 1?
And who on earth considers it fun to die because that orc rolled a 20? Level 1 in 3.5 is almost always played with kid gloves, just because the luck of the roll matters so much.
Most of our party has to check what their powers do every time they use them, only because there are no direct references. Some effects require us to look them up (whereas I have a number of hindrances memorized for 3.5, at least for the abilities I use a lot).
And even our best character can't deal more than 20 points of damage, and he is a Rogue too. And I think you are miscalculating the damage values if you are getting a +12 to the damage rolls. If the power says 3[W]+Dex, then it doesn't multiply the Dex modifier.
One of the problems is that a DM who wants a fast-paced campaign at the lower levels can't have it, because any attempts to level the party up without using DM Fiat ends up with someone in the negatives making Death saves every round. The party I play with could handle a Mature Adult White Dragon at ECL 5th in 3.5. Now in 4E they can barely stand up to a Kruthik at 2nd level.
Look at how much XP a party of 5 1st levels gets for beating an encounter 3 levels above them. Jack s***.
Couple with the lack of WBL guidelines that are actually coherent enough to work
poor Skill challenge systems
and serious inexperience, and you have a very ill-equipped party dealing with low-CR enemies that still pose a threat for XP in the 50's. When they need somewhere in the 3000's just to level.
Indeed I cannot, but a caster party still has a solid chance and good options to work with. I can make characters with no real thought behind them in 4E, and still have them excel when compared to other party members. In 3.5, the only one with a handicap is my brother as he can't read the books without a CCTV. While this does result in party strife and someone wearing the pants for an entire campaign, it also suits gaming for the party to have a distinguishable leader rather than a bunch of bungling fools with barely a trick to taking their shirts off, much less for fighting.
It has defenses of AC 17, Fortitude 14, Ref 15, Will 13. A level 2 wizard with 18 INT and a +1 implement is attacking at +4 (INT) + 1 (tool) + 1 (level) = +6 vs. a defense of 13, and will often have Combat Advantage as well. How on earth can he have problems hitting? A rogue with a +1 dagger and 18 DEX attacks at +10 vs. AC 17, usually +12 (trying for Combat Advantage). He hits the thing on a 5+!
The Kruthik has HP 67. It shouldn't take a party more than two or three rounds to chew threw that.
In the end, some of us do not find the system effective. Some of us prefer the gaps in power to the obvious failure that results when the party fights.
I'll cite an example for you. A 2nd level party was put up against a Giant Beetle in 4E. To put it plainly, they got lucky. ... a Kruthik who doesn't even get hit for 19 (yes, exact count) rounds. When I handed out XP for each of those encounters, they were furious over the measly 35 XP per person, which is the RAW for a CR 2 encounter, and even the full 150 XP from the CR 4 beetle didn't budge their opinion on the CR/XP system.
There is no such thing as a Giant Beetle in my MM. You mean the Kruthik Adult, a party of five level 2 characters should take the thing down in two rounds or so, without using any dailies. It's possible to do it in one if they get lucky and someone crits or they roll well.
I even put them up against a CR 10 trap, and let them BS the entire ordeal with it, and they got less XP than they did for the CR 4. Granted, I was using the RAW for XP when I threw the trap at them, but still... Its rather pathetic when a party gets less for a CR 10 than they do for a CR 4.
So... what the hell is your party doingthat they're so incompetent? How on EARTH could they avoiding hitting a Kruthik Adult's 17 AC and 13 Will defense for that many rounds? I swear, that sounds impossible.Last edited by Covered In Bees; 2008-07-30 at 12:46 AM.
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2008-07-30, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
I think it is catching on, and will eventually be unquestionably more popular than 3.5. Already, my friends are scavenging mechanics and ideas out of it for our own mutant systems (Hey, look. A liver. If we hollow this out, it will make an excellent lung!).
At the moment, I am still worried about the aggressive expansionist viewpoint Wizards seems to have towards the game more than 4E's immediate failings (Which, I will admit, I don't see as much as some of the 3.5 diehards do). The number of power options for each class is strictly limited, giving maybe a total of 3-6 solid builds before you get overlap and concepts start to merge too much. This can be easily addressed by books with more powers and initial selection options, but that encourages WOTC to print dozens of them, not to mention new classes. If 3.5 taught us anything, it's that the power will creep upwards, and balance will get shaky. While a much better job of balancing has been done in 4th and 3rd, dozens of new books coming out at the (personal prediction) rate of 1 per month is going to be impossible to keep even.
If that happens, my guess is that there will be an exodus back to 3.5 or other systems. This is especially true if, after 3 years, a "4.5" revamp is announced and wipes out several hundred dollars of book investments.
If WoTC doesn't play a colossal jerk in that manner, I think that 4E will be the dominant RPG until 5.0, and the 3.X only crowd will fall into a severe minority position, much like the 2.X only crowd was in 2007.
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2008-07-30, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
True, except for the 4.5 part. When 3.5 came out, a lot of people complained (rightfully they didn't want to buy variants of the same core books they had), but eventually either the 3.0 became a minority or passed on to 3.5 because it was an actual improvement of the game. So seeing 3.5 I suppose that even if 4.5 comes out, it would improve 4e enough to convince most people.
Dio non è con noi, perché anche lui odia gli imbecilli...
I think people over-emphasize the 'World of Warcraft’ comparison. Jay Wilson
Talking about Diablo 3 of course. What where you thinking of?
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2008-07-30, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
The newest errata has caused a bit of... strange rules for skill challenges. (More information and a potential fix can be found here. Thread is only 10 days old so posting in it is fine.)
Regardless, I think 4E will continue to catch on, as it is doing now.
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2008-07-30, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
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2008-07-30, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Well, I just had a mail from one of my players saying:
"Je dois t'avouer que nos parties du weekend me redonne de plus en plus goût au JDR."
Translated to "I must admit that our week-end games [4e] are bringing back my taste for Role playing games"
So at least for my group, it is catching on. Maybe we needed a change, maybe it's the different style, one thing is sure: For the moment, we are having fun!
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2008-07-30, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
For the last time, it stands for Shadow of Darkness!
Thankin' Nevitan fer me babytar!
Kasaad Shadowweb-Chitine Paladin of Freedom (now a clickable link!).
Genderbender week comin' up! SoDess by Bisected8 *applause*
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2008-07-30, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
Opps! Another "3.5=all previous editions" post. 1e didn't (I'm not sure about 2e but I don't think it did either) have crits, and I'm generally of the opinion that crits are a bad idea in any game with hit points, although it's often hard to convince players of that.
Part of the game is to start off just slightly better than the average person and work your way up to being the big hero. A normal person CAN'T survive a good solid hit with a long sword. A fighter at 1st level in 1e has a good chance of doing so, and a 4th level fighter probably will survive four such attacks. That's just part of the game, and making it past the low levels makes reaching the higher levels more satisfying.
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2008-07-30, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Gor, spilling paga again
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
I'm confused. There was a 3rd edition? I thought it went D&D, AD&D, and 4e?
I did have a really bizarre dream about a couple of very improbably bad, failed editions with things called CoDzillas, Batman wizards, and a level 5 omnipotent kobold named Pun-Pun, but of course that's just silly and was obviously only a dream ...
... right?
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2008-07-30, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
The only complaint in my group has been that Barbarian and Bard are gone, but I think that this is only because we have one group member who really likes, well, barbarians and bards.
The Tenth Doctor and the TARDIS by Ceika.
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2008-07-30, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-30, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: So, do you think 4E is catching on?
20 = hit, though. And at level 1 a hit is likely to kill you. Especially if you didn't roll so well for hit points.
(Rolling for hit points. UGH.)
Part of the game is to start off just slightly better than the average person and work your way up to being the big hero. A normal person CAN'T survive a good solid hit with a long sword.
People have been starting games at level 2, 3, 4, whatever for a long, long time.
a 4th level fighter probably will survive four such attacks. That's just part of the game, and making it past the low levels makes reaching the higher levels more satisfying.