Some 4.0 questions

[Cilvyn]

I've started to read 4th edition becose i love reading the DnD books. and sots of imcompleteness falls over me.

In the first place i inmediatly recognize the great combat improval, lots of options, no tank and spank+ some nice specials anymore:P

1. When i read the classes it was like: nice abilities. oh finally that spell nerved or sumthing like that. but most abilities say: strength against AC. i don't see any base attack table or anything like it. so i must be thinking the ability scores have to go up in a fast tempo to be able to beat the AC of mobs.and do players get second attacks as wel?. please explain or tell what i missed.

2. by reading the monsters, it's the same thing as players: spending action points. usualy some big mob hit my character with both claws, a bite attack, a tailsweep and soem awsome rent attack to finish me off.. how does that work now? can they use just 1 attack at the same time?

2.1
Like 3.5 monsters have ability scores. wich is normally : 10=0 12=1 14=2 etc. now the numbers are total chaos. somtimes 18=18 then 10=0 and with another mob 3=0 what the heck do i have to make up out this? and now monsters have like unbeatable saves.. a stupid orc has like 17 fort 18 will and 15 ref. 0.o

3.
What is sence persception. it stands right next to his initiative.. couln't find that either.

i think this were my most important questions, i'll be on vacation for 2 weeks.. when i come back i'll read this and try to rad more and understand more of the 4.0 version wich i would like to try in my D&D sessions

Thank you in advance.

Sebastian

[Sucrose]

Welcome to 4.0. I finally bought the PHB a few weeks ago, and I must say, I like the system pretty well.

1. Well, the numbers don't seem to rise as quickly in this edition, so that's not a huge issue. Also, the stat that's listed is what you add to half your level, any weapon proficiency/weapon magic/magic implement bonuses, so it isn't totally dependent on sheer ability scores.

You don't get second attacks unless a power specifically gives you the option. There are a fair number that do that, though.

2. I think that they work in the combat system the same way as players; unless the creatures are specifically said to be able to use certain attacks in combination, or multiple standard actions per round, they can only attack once per round.

2.1 I don't know what you're talking about entirely, but as far as saves are concerned, you misunderstand it. The saves are essentially "taking 10" (no roll is added to it) and the player rolls his attack and tries to beat that number. (Thus, even someone with +0 to the attack could hit 20% of the time for a Fortitude defense of 17).

3. I'm not sure, but all methods of noticing something are now lumped under "Perception." A useful addition is the idea of "Passive Perception," or what you notice when you aren't trying to do so. It's just taking 10 on the Perception check. The sense line might have something to do with special bonuses on Perception checks with specific senses, or it might have senses that modify how the Perception works, like darkvision or something.

[Gralamin]

I've started to read 4th edition becose i love reading the DnD books. and sots of imcompleteness falls over me.

In the first place i inmediatly recognize the great combat improval, lots of options, no tank and spank+ some nice specials anymore:P

1. When i read the classes it was like: nice abilities. oh finally that spell nerved or sumthing like that. but most abilities say: strength against AC. i don't see any base attack table or anything like it. so i must be thinking the ability scores have to go up in a fast tempo to be able to beat the AC of mobs.and do players get second attacks as wel?. please explain or tell what i missed.

Every gets half their level to their attack bonus. In addition, a power with the weapon or implement keyword allows players to add a weapon or implement's enhancement bonus to the the attack (Weapon also allows you to add a proficiency bonus)

2. by reading the monsters, it's the same thing as players: spending action points. usualy some big mob hit my character with both claws, a bite attack, a tailsweep and soem awsome rent attack to finish me off.. how does that work now? can they use just 1 attack at the same time?

Each creature has 1 standard action, 1 move action, and 1 minor action in a turn. Unless they have a power like "Dual axe (Standard action) - Make two axe attacks", they can usually only make one per round. (Elite monsters, which count as two normal monsters get 1 action point, and solo monsters get 2 action points. Each of these creatures may have multiple attack abilities)

2.1
Like 3.5 monsters have ability scores. wich is normally : 10=0 12=1 14=2 etc. now the numbers are total chaos. somtimes 18=18 then 10=0 and with another mob 3=0 what the heck do i have to make up out this? and now monsters have like unbeatable saves.. a stupid orc has like 17 fort 18 will and 15 ref. 0.o

Those aren't saves, they are defenses. Say a power said Intelligence vs Will. You would roll a die, add your intelligence, and compare to the creatures will defense, as if it was AC.
Saving throws now are simple DC 10 d20 check.

3.
What is sence persception. it stands right next to his initiative.. couln't find that either.

i think this were my most important questions, i'll be on vacation for 2 weeks.. when i come back i'll read this and try to rad more and understand more of the 4.0 version wich i would like to try in my D&D sessions

Thank you in advance.

Sebastian

Perception is their modifier used to oppose someones stealth modifier. It gives you an idea of how good the creature is at spotting things.

[Cilvyn]

thanks for the replay

as for the saves.. i think i know why the saves are so high..
if you have to add half your level. it would look like this:

10+(16 wisdom on level 6= 3+3=6) = 16

tell me if i am wrong

seb

[SCPRedMage]

2.1
Like 3.5 monsters have ability scores. wich is normally : 10=0 12=1 14=2 etc. now the numbers are total chaos. somtimes 18=18 then 10=0 and with another mob 3=0 what the heck do i have to make up out this?

Keep in mind, that when you make any kind of d20 roll other than a saving throw, you add in half your level (rounded down). Because of that, all monster statblocks have half their level added in to their ability modifiers.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

thanks for the replay

as for the saves.. i think i know why the saves are so high..
if you have to add half your level. it would look like this:

10+(16 wisdom on level 6= 3+3=6) = 16

tell me if i am wrong

seb

Right, yeah. But again, they're not saves. They're defenses, just like AC. Most weapon attacks target AC, and a lot of magical attacks seem to attack other things. Bear with me, I haven't spent a lot of time looking through much more than the sweet rogue stuff, because I'll be playing a rogue in a month or so.

But yeah. They're now defenses, which makes things so much easier.

[Skjaldbakka]

They're now defenses, which makes things so much easier.

I don't see how that aspect makes it any easier (or harder). While you don't have to roll lots of saves for a group of monsters hit with a fireball, the player has to roll lots of attacks instead. Unless you roll as a group, which works both ways.

All it does is change who is rolling.

[Sucrose]

I don't see how that aspect makes it any easier (or harder). While you don't have to roll lots of saves for a group of monsters hit with a fireball, the player has to roll lots of attacks instead. Unless you roll as a group, which works both ways.

All it does is change who is rolling.

True, but it does give a unified feel to the game when the attacker always rolls.

Not a big deal at all, but nice. (Also, I think that they had that option squirreled away somewhere in one of 3.5's splatbooks, anyway. If they didn't, as you point out, it would be easy to homebrew.)

[Cilvyn]

in 3.5 it used to be saves.. so i think i´ll use those terms till 2011 or somthing:P

the most important thing is that i understand those things:P wich i do now a lot better.

about atacks from players:
like some random level 8 action doenst matter what one or what action
1[w]+ str against ref ..

for example:
4.0
level 8, 16 str= 4+3=+7
+ any magical items bonus/feats/etc
is together + 7

Is the same as:
3.5
bab+str= 5+2=7
+ any magical items/feats/etc


Than the damage
1[w]+ str= total damage? or does the char put here also half his level to? or some oter bonusses?

( what do i have to understand about weapon proffesions? someone above me put that also in the 'base attack bonus' formule.)

[SCPRedMage]

True, but it does give a unified feel to the game when the attacker always rolls.

Not a big deal at all, but nice. (Also, I think that they had that option squirreled away somewhere in one of 3.5's splatbooks, anyway. If they didn't, as you point out, it would be easy to homebrew.)

Close, but not quite... Unearthed Arcana had a "Player's Roll All the Dice" variant. If you could adapt it to do the same, but the idea was to have players roll ALL of the dice in combat.

[SCPRedMage]

Than the damage
1[w]+ str= total damage? or does the char put here also half his level to? or some oter bonusses?

( what do i have to understand about weapon proffesions? someone above me put that also in the 'base attack bonus' formule.)

You only add half level in on d20 rolls, so no, not to damage.

As far as weapon proficiencies go, every weapon has a "weapon proficiency bonus", which is usually +2 (+3 for swords and daggers). You use this bonus on any power that has the "weapon" keyword; you also add your magic weapon's enhancement bonus to attack and damage on these powers.

Likewise, some classes use "implements", such as a warlock's rods or wands, and the cleric's holy symbol. If you have a magic implement, you add it's enhancement bonus to attack and damage with powers that have the "implement" keyword.

[Gralamin]

thanks for the replay

as for the saves.. i think i know why the saves are so high..
if you have to add half your level. it would look like this:

10+(16 wisdom on level 6= 3+3=6) = 16

tell me if i am wrong

seb

You are wrong. According to Dungeon Master guide page 185, 16 is about average ability score for level 16, which means when you determine a creatures defenses, you don't add it. In your example the creature should have a will defense of 12+Level = 18.
It fluctuates from here, but that's due to balancing, not a formula.

in 3.5 it used to be saves.. so i think i´ll use those terms till 2011 or somthing:P

the most important thing is that i understand those things:P wich i do now a lot better.

about atacks from players:
like some random level 8 action doenst matter what one or what action
1[w]+ str against ref ..

for example:
4.0
level 8, 16 str= 4+3=+7
+ any magical items bonus/feats/etc
is together + 7

Correct, a complete list would be
+ 4 (1/2 level)
+ 3 (Strength)
+ X (Weapon Proficiency [If power has weapon keyword]
+ Y (Enhancement Bonus)
+ Z (Class Bonus, such as fighters and rogues class features)
+ Miscellaneous modifiers (Such as feats, or circumstance, or some such)

Is the same as:
3.5
bab+str= 5+2=7
+ any magical items/feats/etc

Yes

Than the damage
1[w]+ str= total damage? or does the char put here also half his level to? or some oter bonusses?

To damage you include the following
Dice rolled (1[w] indicates roll the damage for the weapon once, so if you had a greatsword you'd roll 1d10)
+ Strength modifier (3 in the example)
+ Enhancement Bonus (If the weapon is magical)
+ Misc (Feats, etc.)

Edit:

You only add half level in on d20 rolls, so no, not to damage.

As far as weapon proficiencies go, every weapon has a "weapon proficiency bonus", which is usually +2 (+3 for swords and daggers). You use this bonus on any power that has the "weapon" keyword; you also add your magic weapon's enhancement bonus to attack and damage on these powers.

D20 rolls that aren't saving throws.

[Sucrose]

Than the damage
1[w]+ str= total damage? or does the char put here also half his level to? or some oter bonusses?

For a basic attack, yes. Many, many powers allow you to do more damage than that, or damage on a miss, and so on. Feats, likewise, can boost your damage.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just to clarify on Fort/Ref/Will defenses (for PCs at least), each defense value is basically equal to 10 plus half your level plus the appropriate attribute modifier plus your class bonus (there can be additional bonuses from race, feats, etc.). So for example...

Fortitude = 10 + Level/2 + (Str OR Con mod) + Class
Reflex = 10 + Level/2 + (Dex OR Int mod) + Class + Shield*
Will = 10 + Level/2 + (Wis OR Cha mod) + Class

Class modifers are for example a Wizard gets a +2 bonus to Will Defense. It's kinda like the strong saves vs weak saves of 3E.
* You add your shield's armor bonus (if you have one) to Reflex.

AC is figured similarly...
If you're wearing Light Armor, it's AC = 10 + Level/2 + (Dex OR Int mod) + Armor + Shield + Misc
If you're wearing Heavy Armor, it's AC = 10 + Level/2 + Armor + Shield + Misc

I hope that clears things up a bit, and doesn't just confuse you.

[SCPRedMage]

Edit:

D20 rolls that aren't saving throws.

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier...

[Eikre]

in 3.5 it used to be saves.. so i think i´ll use those terms till 2011 or somthing:P

Saves are now a completely different thing in 4E. They are not defenses, but they do exist, and they come up often.

If you go on calling defenses "saves," you're not using eclectic vocabulary, you're just incorrect.

[wumpus]

Saves are now a completely different thing in 4E. They are not defenses, but they do exist, and they come up often.

If you go on calling defenses "saves," you're not using eclectic vocabulary, you're just incorrect.

"Saves" have been like that for all 30+ years of D&D's existence. There used to be poison/magic/death/petrification instead of more recent fortitude/will/reflex, but the concept remained. It takes a long while to find the silly bit about "10+ is always a saving throw, at any level".

TSR/WoTC/Hasbro got the vocabulary wrong, and can't be bothered to get it right.

[wumpus]

Yet another question:

During the big run up about how 4E will turn water into wine and all the details made grognards insist it will turn wine into vinegar, one major claim was that NPCs will use different rules than PCs.

Where are they? I've seen monster rules, but no NPC rules. Are they just "normal humans" with minion/brute/solo templates or something else? Of course, this could all be a part of "NPCs blink out of existence after the PCs leave" so they aren't important enough to have any stats whatsoever.

[EagleWiz]

In the 4.0 DMG there is a section on stating up NPCs. They are a hybrid between PC class and monster class.

[Jack Mann]

"Saves" have been like that for all 30+ years of D&D's existence. There used to be poison/magic/death/petrification instead of more recent fortitude/will/reflex, but the concept remained. It takes a long while to find the silly bit about "10+ is always a saving throw, at any level".

TSR/WoTC/Hasbro got the vocabulary wrong, and can't be bothered to get it right.

"Save" is shorthand for "saving throw." However, you aren't making a throw for fortitude, will and reflex anymore. You've got a static defense. This is why they're no longer called saving throws. WotC is not wrong for changing the term. They changed the term because it wouldn't work with their new system. However, they did retain the basic idea of a saving throw (roll a die to end/prevent a condition), and now use the term for that. Whether or not this was a good idea is a matter for some debate, but, given the mechanics of the game, their choice in terms was logical.

[Bago!!!]

I have a question.

What is the shadowfell exactly? I mean, I can't see it mentioned online (other than the campeign) or in the players handbook.

Also, what kind of abilities do the shadow creatures? I ask because I want to make another class that draws upon the shadows as a source, and it would be great to know how they work out.

[Rockphed]

Alright, lets pull out the 4th edition Cosmology Chart.

There seem to be 4 places connected to the Natural, home plane. These are The Astral Sea, The Feywild, The Elemental Chaos and the Shadow Fell.

The Astral Sea is home to the Gods, Angels, Demons(or is that Devils, I can never remember) and a few other creatures. Kinda like the Astral Plane with most of the Aligned planes as islands floating in it.

The Feywild is home to the Fey(Eladrin and such). Kinda like the CG plane in 3rd edition.

The Elemental Chaos is home to the Primordials, Elementals, Archons and Devils(or is it Demons, Again, I can't remember.) Kinda like a mutant crossbreed of Limbo and the Abyss.

The Shadow Fell is, if memory serves, a dark, dreary place that is full of death. I beleive that most undead, as well as death giants, that creepy, emo race, and the raven queen hail from here. Kinda like the Shadow Plane in 3rd edition.

Did I miss anything?

[Bago!!!]

Thank you!

But what kind of abilities do the shadow creatures get?