Coupe de Grace

[Dristin]

I have this listed as a magic items ability but I do not know what it does. Does anyone know what book it is from? It is in a 3.5 book somewhere but I can not find it.

[Adumbration]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/it...tm#coupdeGrace

[Irreverent Fool]

Coup de grace weapons are exceptionally dangerous. On a successful critical hit, the foe must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be paralyzed for 1 round. While this ability does work on creatures that are immune to extra damage from critical hits, it does not work on creatures without an Intelligence score. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability on their ammunition.

That doesn't sound "exceptionally dangerous" to me. There's better ways to spend a +5 bonus.

[Emperor Tippy]

That doesn't sound "exceptionally dangerous" to me. There's better ways to spend a +5 bonus.

A paralyzed creature is helpless, they can be coupe de graced. Now is it worth a +5 bonus? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't take it but thats just me.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh yeah, and a Coupe de Grace is an automatic critical hit. Meaning that they are paralyzed again, whether or not they make their fortitude save (which is unlikely).

[Adumbration]

Does anyone know how to make a proper build focused on coup de grace?

[quiet1mi]

basically the weapon says,

"if you score a critical, you can keep scoring critical until they die"

so a DC:27 will save stands between you and getting out of the coup de grace loop....

[shadow_archmagi]

basically the weapon says,

"if you score a critical, you can keep scoring critical until they die"

so a DC:27 will save stands between you and getting out of the coup de grace loop....

Yeah. Can someone say if a DC 27 is particularly nasty?

[AmberVael]

The problem is that you have to score a critical to actually get it going. Not worth it unless you've entirely focused on criticals.

[Quxelopqr]

Well, the max base save one can get would be +12. Add in a wisdom modifier of 1 to 10 and the best you can have there is +22. +5 cape of resistance later you have a +27 will save, giving you a 5% chance of doom.

However, who besides divine casters really gets their wisdom to a +10 modifier? A +4 seems more likely. So the best you have there is soemthing around a +17 or +18, leaving you with about a coin flip of success. I'd say it's useful, especially on something with a 18-20 crit range.

For the guy questioning a build for it, I'd say go rogue or ranger and take improved critical on whatever weapon you use (probably a rapier, scimitar or kukri). That way you can skip putting keen on your weapons since a +5 bonus is really expensive.

[Emperor Tippy]

It depends. A bad will save only gives you +6 at level 20. Throw in a +5 cloak and your at +11, need a 16 or better to make it. So a Wisdom of 22+ for a 50/50 shot.

A good will save is +12. Throw in a +5 cloak and your already at a 50/50 shot.

Since its a +5 enhancement that means a +6 weapon at a minimum. That costs 72,000 GP. At a quarter of WBL on a single item your looking at level level 17.

Thats a good will save of +10.

Vorpal is the only other SRD +5 weapon enhancement and it only functions 5% of the time.

It most assuredly has a use. I just don't think it's the best use of a +5 bonus.

Paralytic Burst is a +2 enhancement from MIC that does the same thing except with a DC 17 save.

[Emperor Tippy]

The problem is that you have to score a critical to actually get it going. Not worth it unless you've entirely focused on criticals.

Actually, at the levels where it comes into play (17+) a melee character is most likely making 3+ attacks in a round. Even if we only go with a hit on a 20 that is one in 20 attacks, or every 7 rounds.

Get a weapon with a 19-20 critical and its even better odds. Go with a 18-20 weapon and either Keen or Improved Critical and your at 15-20. Or 1 in 4 attacks (assuming that you hit on a 15+).

A full BAB class shouldn't have much of a problem doing it.

[Adumbration]

Hmmph. Now I have an image of a fighter wielding a keen coup de grace rapier in one hand and a scythe in the other.

Too bad it's impossible.

[Kyeudo]

Not really. You just need more hands than normal to pull that trick off. I recommend Dolgrim. Small, but 4 arms, DR, and no penalties for fighting with an offhand weapon. You'd even still have one arm available for a shield. Only LA +2

[Skjaldbakka]

I think you used to be able to do that in 3.0, the way monkey grip used to work.

[AmberVael]

Actually, at the levels where it comes into play (17+) a melee character is most likely making 3+ attacks in a round. Even if we only go with a hit on a 20 that is one in 20 attacks, or every 7 rounds.

Get a weapon with a 19-20 critical and its even better odds. Go with a 18-20 weapon and either Keen or Improved Critical and your at 15-20. Or 1 in 4 attacks (assuming that you hit on a 15+).

A full BAB class shouldn't have much of a problem doing it.

Every seven rounds is NOT worth it for buying something that expensive. Furthermore, it doesn't work on quite a few significant creature types, and can be bypassed with a will save (which adds in more creatures that can resist).

It's a good ability if you work it right, but if you don't work it right you can buy other things that are better uses of your money (such as items that prevent your death, or kill things far more reliably by just making you deal more damage and hit more frequently EVERY TIME).

[Skjaldbakka]

That is every 7 rounds assuming a threat range of 20.

Note the 1-in-4 attacks with an 18-20 threat range and I. critical.

Which means just about every other round.

However, we probably ought to be looking at creature Will saves at the appropriate CR, not other PCs of equal level.

I doubt you would get this to work on a dragon very often, for example.

[AmberVael]

That is every 7 rounds assuming a threat range of 20.

Note the 1-in-4 attacks with an 18-20 threat range and I. critical.

Which means just about every other round.

However, we probably ought to be looking at creature Will saves at the appropriate CR, not other PCs of equal level.

I doubt you would get this to work on a dragon very often, for example.

Yes, which is why I said it may be worthwhile if you focus on criticals.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, as I said. It could be useful, but it isn't really worth the +5 bonus. Paralytic burst could be (being only +2) but it only has a DC 17 save.

[Moriato]

Don't forget, a coup de grace isn't just an automatic critical. If the creature is subject to critical hits, they also have to make a fort save or die. When you preform a coup de grace, I mean, not just when the weapon goes off.

Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

[Chronos]

For the guy questioning a build for it, I'd say go rogue or ranger and take improved critical on whatever weapon you use (probably a rapier, scimitar or kukri). That way you can skip putting keen on your weapons since a +5 bonus is really expensive.

Even better, just use a Scabbard of Keen Edges. Get the benefit from an item, without paying quadratically-scaling prices for it.

[Knaight]

Of course the real way to exploit this is through use of dual wielding high critical range weapons. 8 attacks with 15-20 critical rapiers every turn is going to paralyze someone, at which point you find your high crit weapon, and coup de gras.

[Yakk]

Actually, have 3 weapons.

Two wide-crit Rapiers. ~30% chance per hit that they crit. Throw lots of attacks out. Say 6 attacks, and 4 hits -- or an average of 1.2 attempts per round.

Once they crit and the target is paralyzed, you drop them and pull out your Scythe. It can have this power, or you can rely on the coup to kill the target.

Auto-crit for 4x damage, with some power attack thrown in. If the target is not immune to critical hits, they have to make a ridiculously high fort save, or die. And if they pass that, they still have to make a save against being paralyzed.