What do you think of this... (3.5e)

[fraud]

I'm makinng a world to set our D&D games with:

baisicly the world if mainly made up of water with barley any land. The cultures are very seperate because not only is the sea large but filled with dark horrors. The West is the main place. It's a combination of mountains and plains and forests and is inhabited by all the races, the south is small but a place of beauty and is only inhabited by humans and elves, the North is freezing wasteland of mountains and is inhabited by dwarves and a few gnomes and sometimes a few human villages, the east is not well known but it's mostly hostile desert filled with bandits and monsters. The world has two moons, one twice the size of earth's moon and is far away so it slowly rotates and seems smaller than it is and the other the size of Ganymede and is close so it rotates quite fast. The two moons create a very bright moonlight but the stars are few. I'm still working on a few cities, I have a few ideas but I'm still working on this.

[Emperor Tippy]

And whats your question?

[llamamushroom]

I think he wants feedback on his world-setting.

In that respect, I have just one question - why would the bandits be in the place where there is nothing else, when the West seems to be a much more profitable area for stabbing and stealing?

Apart from that, I would suggest against making the Dark Horrors (tm) feature too much - perhaps transplant the bandits from desert to ocean? Seeing as ocean would be the cheapest method of transport between lands, and the lands themselves are small, there would be a lot of sea-trade. Heh, maybe even give a couple of your Sea Bandits (so totally not pirates in any way, shape or form) control over a couple of your Dark Horrors...

[Kurald Galain]

Recommended reading material: the Earthsea chronicles, by Ursula LeGuin.

[Emperor Tippy]

Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

[Blanks]

@ teleport

Homebrew suggestion:
there exist teleport barriers. Any attempt to cross these means you simply appear where the barrier is. IE, if the barrier is between to islands, you simply appear in the water between them.

This allows the players to teleport around the islands without much trouble (keeping the teleport spell), but also means they won't teleport between islands unless "the route is charted" IE everyone knows that you can go from the tower of the ruined fort of island A to the beach of island B.


@ bandits in desert
If the west is well patrolled, perhaps the bandits have fled into the desert to avoid the law.

[Quietus]

Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

Not everyone is into optimization the same way you are, Tippy. Most worlds aren't filled with teleportation circles, so low-level characters and NPCs (read : 99.9% of the world's population) will still need mundane travel.

Just because in theory it would be cheaper when you crunch the numbers doesn't mean that every world will have Create Food and Water machines, resetting Create Water traps, and teleportation circles to and from the market.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not everyone is into optimization the same way you are, Tippy. Most worlds aren't filled with teleportation circles, so low-level characters and NPCs (read : 99.9% of the world's population) will still need mundane travel.

Just because in theory it would be cheaper when you crunch the numbers doesn't mean that every world will have Create Food and Water machines, resetting Create Water traps, and teleportation circles to and from the market.

You still have to deal with it if you want a world that is remotely reasonable.

A sailing ship costs 10,000 GP. I can get a permanent teleportation circle for 4,825 GP. That teleportation circle is faster, cheaper, safer, and has fewer upkeep expenses than the sailing ship. This means that no one will use the sailing ship.

So if your world has and uses sailing ships then you need a reason why it doesn't use teleportation circles.

And once the initial expense of the teleportation circle is covered the owner will let other people use it for a nominal fee (1 CP or 1 SP maybe) because it doesn't cost him anything to do so and turns a profit. This means that Bob the tanner can live 10,000 miles from where he works with no real problem.

[Orran]

Well if there are enough 15th level wizards in your world to be permanently employed creating teleportation circles all over your world then that would be a very reasonable conclusion. But then think how many would be left to craft magic items and other important magey things.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well if there are enough 15th level wizards in your world to be permanently employed creating teleportation circles all over your world then that would be a very reasonable conclusion. But then think how many would be left to craft magic items and other important magey things.

Actually all you need is a 12th level Warlock. He can use Imbue Item to create a Scroll of Teleportation Circle and a Scroll of Gate. All he has to do is make a DC 24 check on each. And since thanks to Deceive Item he can take 10 on any UMD check then he just needs to max UMD and he will make the check (gets a 25).

Now to use those scrolls requires a DC 37 UMD Check. Take 10 and with 15 from ranks and you only have to pick up another 12 points.

+2 MW Tool
+2 Spellcraft Synergy
+3 Circlet of Persuasion
+3 Skill Focus: UMD
+2 Charisma bonus

There, a level 12 warlock can do everything needed, guarenteed.

Step 1: Use Scroll of Teleportation Circle
Step 2: Use Scroll of Gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 3: Order Solar to make the Teleportation Circle Permanent.
Step 4: Order Solar to Wish for a Scroll of Gate.
Step 5: Order Solar to give you the Scroll of Gate.

[Orran]

I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

Um they really aren't that rare.

Page 139 of the DMG. Assuming that they are as rare as wizards then a metropolis will have 4 Warlocks of level 13-16. A large city will have 3 warlocks between levels 10-13, which averages to at least 1 level 12.

And all it takes is 1 warlock doing it once. And the whole point of warlock is that he can create that scroll of gate at level 12. You don't need the wizard.

A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

[Kurald Galain]

A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

Which means that, given a slightly lower amount of 10+ level casters than given in the DMG (which seems plausible given the description), the world's sole known 12th level warlock made three teleportation circles so he could visit his laboratory and his gf easy, and put some traps around them so that Joe Commoner wouldn't be tempted to use them as well.

And Joe Commoner went unto said Warlock and saith, lo, if thou lettest me useth thine gate, I shalt pay thee two copper pieces.

Whereupon the Warlock laughed heartily and transformeth Joe Commoner into a froggeth. And ateth frog legth for dinnerth.

[Stupendous_Man]

I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

what do those 20+ intelligence wizards do all they, smoke hash?

[only1doug]

You still have to deal with it if you want a world that is remotely reasonable.

A sailing ship costs 10,000 GP. I can get a permanent teleportation circle for 4,825 GP. That teleportation circle is faster, cheaper, safer, and has fewer upkeep expenses than the sailing ship. This means that no one will use the sailing ship.

So if your world has and uses sailing ships then you need a reason why it doesn't use teleportation circles.

And once the initial expense of the teleportation circle is covered the owner will let other people use it for a nominal fee (1 CP or 1 SP maybe) because it doesn't cost him anything to do so and turns a profit. This means that Bob the tanner can live 10,000 miles from where he works with no real problem.

A sailing ship can visit many different destinations, a Teleportation circle is a one way trip to a fixed destination.
Certainly powerful shipping guilds would want to establish Teleportation circles to the most popular destinations but there are limits to the utility, not all objects will not fit into a 5' radius circle so some items will still need to be transported by other methods.
for general utility a shipping firm would want to have at least a few vessels to allow a diversity of destinations.

Doug

[Emperor Tippy]

A sailing ship can visit many different destinations, a Teleportation circle is a one way trip to a fixed destination.
Certainly powerful shipping guilds would want to establish Teleportation circles to the most popular destinations but there are limits to the utility, not all objects will not fit into a 5' radius circle so some items will still need to be transported by other methods.
for general utility a shipping firm would want to have at least a few vessels to allow a diversity of destinations.

Doug

Then you send out a small little exploration party (adventure hook) to see what locations are worth the 10K initial investment to set up a 2 way link. And frankly, they have no reason to ship to smaller markets.

As for fitting in a 5 foot radius, it doesn't have to. As soon as a creature touches a TC it and all its goods are ported. And dragging something counts as carrying it, so it comes with you. You could have an animated colossal freight train and it could use a TC just fine.

[Orran]

Um they really aren't that rare.

Page 139 of the DMG. Assuming that they are as rare as wizards then a metropolis will have 4 Warlocks of level 13-16. A large city will have 3 warlocks between levels 10-13, which averages to at least 1 level 12.

And all it takes is 1 warlock doing it once. And the whole point of warlock is that he can create that scroll of gate at level 12. You don't need the wizard.

A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

My argument was that warlocks would be more rare than wizards, based on them being non-core. And even if they are as common your example still means that there is one warlock capable of doing this in each metropolis, and in an average campaign world there is 1 maybe 2 metropoli. Meaning 1 or 2 warlocks expected to provide teleportation circles for the whole world. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that teleportation circles as a form of transport would be as common as you suggested.

what do those 20+ intelligence wizards do all they, smoke hash?

No, they craft magic items of course, don't be pedantic.

[Stupendous_Man]

they also use their intelligence of over nine thousand to come up with cunning plans you kno?

[Orran]

I wouldn't assume that, you see this plan was made by someone with all the knowledge of how their world works, these wizards, though intelligent, will not know every rule of their world. So there is no reason to assume that anyone would come up with such a plan, for much the same reason that there is no god called pun-pun in most worlds.

[Roderick_BR]

Do this:
1.Rent Water World.
2.Watch it.
3.Don't do anything that is shown there.

How is transportation handled? A water dominated world will either have water transport be very important, or barely used, if the sea is too dangerous.
Since it would become important to world economy, that's something you should plan on working on.

[Sebastian]

Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

What about this, magic don't work on the ocean. For some reason over the oceans there is a very powerful anti magic field (monsters could or could not be immune) any solid material over the water block it (so as long as you keep it over a ship or a bridge you can still cast magic but the moment the spell effect goes over the open water, pffftt, dispelled) this include, but is not limited to, teleport, divination, comunications, polymorph, flying, etc, etc.
That would make that ocena a little scarier without filling it with elder horrors.
To make it more interesting you could make it a little random, spells could have a chance to not work, or worse to malfunction (that fireball you throw at the pirate ship did just poofed out, it made a 180, uh-ho.). Yeah, that is an idea. The whole ocean is a giant Wild Magic Zone, cool.

About the world, are we speaking about 4 big continents, a serie of archipelagos or something else?

[only1doug]

Then you send out a small little exploration party (adventure hook) to see what locations are worth the 10K initial investment to set up a 2 way link. And frankly, they have no reason to ship to smaller markets.

I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that its never worth the effort of shipping.

a trading ship could stop at lots of different ports on a round trip, trading at every one and make a good profit doing so, no one port is worth the 10k outlay of paired teleport circles but added together all the "smaller markets" are the profit margin of a successful trader.

Sure the big cities may all be linked together in a teleport network or alternatively each city might have a teleport barrier around it to prevent a invading army from strolling in and taking over.

Doug

[Stupendous_Man]

I wouldn't assume that, you see this plan was made by someone with all the knowledge of how their world works, these wizards, though intelligent, will not know every rule of their world. So there is no reason to assume that anyone would come up with such a plan, for much the same reason that there is no god called pun-pun in most worlds.

wizard 1: "

knwoeldge arcana: "hey guys, my reasrach shows that we can make teleportation circles!"

wizard 2: hey, we could make money off of that.


don't you think things like airmail show that people with an understanding of hwo the rules of their world work will use it to make transportation easier?

[Emperor Tippy]

My argument was that warlocks would be more rare than wizards, based on them being non-core.

Core/non-core has nothing at all to do with the rarity of a class.

And even if they are as common your example still means that there is one warlock capable of doing this in each metropolis, and in an average campaign world there is 1 maybe 2 metropoli. Meaning 1 or 2 warlocks expected to provide teleportation circles for the whole world. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that teleportation circles as a form of transport would be as common as you suggested.

No, there are 4 warlocks, minimum, per metropolis capable of doing it. And an average of 1 in each large city.

And again, it isn't difficult for them at all. Hell, if you really want to abuse Wish it's downright easy.

Step 1: Make/buy a scroll of gate.
Step 2: Gate in an Efreeti
Step 3: Wish for 2 scrolls of Teleportation Circle and 1 scroll of Gate.
Step 4: Repeat steps 2-3 until you have all the Teleportation Circle scrolls you need.
Step 5: Gate in a Solar.
Step 6: Order the Solar to make up to 3 Teleportation Circles permanent.
Step 7: Order the Solar to Wish up a scroll of gate for you.

I can get the cost per TC down to 8,825 GP and 0 XP total. And I can do it with a level 12 Rogue. So even if you figure 100 major cities and each city links to 2 other cities (using 2 way links) that is 200 TC's needed total. Amortizing the cost over 200 TC's it costs 44.15 GP per TC to set up a full fledged TC network.

And anyone with 8,825 GP and who can hit a DC 37 UMD check reliably can do it.

[Kurald Galain]

don't you think things like airmail show that people with an understanding of hwo the rules of their world work will use it to make transportation easier?

Only if your world subscribes to capitalism. Not at all a given.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that its never worth the effort of shipping.

a trading ship could stop at lots of different ports on a round trip, trading at every one and make a good profit doing so, no one port is worth the 10k outlay of paired teleport circles but added together all the "smaller markets" are the profit margin of a successful trader.

Sure the big cities may all be linked together in a teleport network or alternatively each city might have a teleport barrier around it to prevent a invading army from strolling in and taking over.

Doug

The thing is the 10K outlay is a 1 time expense, and then you have instant access to that market at any time for free. And that's before the 5 CP toll you charge people to use your TC's to go from 1 town to another.

And as for profit margins, remember you have no expenses or risk. You never loose a shipment, you don't need to pay sailors, you don't need to pay upkeep on a ship. Your goods can literally move straight from your warehouse to your factors warehouse and back in under 6 seconds. Bulky, low value goods just became a profitable trade good. I can ship stone just as easily as I can ship spices.

[Stupendous_Man]

Only if your world subscribes to capitalism. Not at all a given.

the commies had air mail too

[jcsw]

You could have a large sea trading cartel constantly sabotaging any teleport gates, since they wanna make money off their ships... Just a thought....

[Emperor Tippy]

You could have a large sea trading cartel constantly sabotaging any teleport gates, since they wanna make money off their ships... Just a thought....

And its cheaper for them to just switch over to TC's. Seriously, setting up a TC network that reaches every hamlet and larger community will cost you 8,825 GP.

And that assumes you don't go with a hub and spoke design. You have a warehouse in 1 city or 1 location and it has a TC to every place you trade with, each of those places has a TC to your warehouse. You can cut the number of TC's needed significantly.

[Orran]

I never argued that it was impossible to do this, just that the people who can do it would A: be fairly rare and B: unwilling to, or wouldn't think of it.

Now it seems that I misread you response and there's actually more warlocks than I thought, if you are to assume that they are as common as wizards, which I don't think is a fair assumption. I'll now attempt to explain my point about core being more common than non-core. According to the DMG you have cited there are 4 wizards of the levels you need and you argue that there should be an equal amount of warlocks, by that assumption we would have to assume there are also that many, beguilers, sorcerers, and other similar casters, meaning that there are 4 times as many as originally stated in the DMG. Further extrapolating from your assumption for every fighter it says there is there is a warblade, crusader, or similar melee class. Now take into account every non-core class that would have to be included, there are now a lot more high level characters than originally thought.

I would assume that instead of that, in every metropolis there are 4 high level wizards or variants, so 1 warlock, 1 sorcerer, 1 beguiler, and 1 wizard. But if wizards are listed as the main class of these I would assume that it's because they are more common. This supports my point about 1 warlock capable of such a plan per metropolis. With only 1 warlock the chances of them A: Actually thinking of this plan and B: following it through en masses are low.