Playing as an Adept (3.5).

[Tempest Fennac]

I was just thinking that it would be interresting to create a 3.5 chartacter who's an Adept with full casting, but I'm not sure how to balance them with PC classes without going overboard. So far, I've extended their spell list* while givin gthem the same number of spells as a Generalist Wizard, but I can't think of any class features which would fit with them. If you guys have any ideas, please could you tell me while letting me know if the spells I added to the class are balanced while fitting with their other spells?

0
Prestigitation added.

2
Rope Trick added.

3
Slow added.

4
Rainbow Pattern and Shout added.

5
Heal replaced by Cure Light Wounds Mass, add Spell Resistance.

6
Heal, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispell, Banishment, Undeath to Death, Chain Lightning, Perminant Image, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, create Undead.

7

Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Spell Turning, Prismatic Spray, Repulsion, Control Weather, Resurrection, Regenerate, Greater Restoration.

8

Cure Crtical Wounds Mass, Firestorm, Greater Spell Immunity, Prismatic Wall, Sunburst, Greater Shout, Create Greater Undead, Polymorph Any Object.

9
Mass Heal, True Ressurrection, Gate, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Miracle.

[mabriss lethe]

....wellllll.....

It's a neat idea, but I really can't think of anything off the top of my head.

-you might incorporate some bit of binder or invoker for some added fun. y'know, to take into account the supernatural back alley deals that swamp witches and hedge wizards are supposed to make. maybe access to one least, lesser, and greater invocation on top of spells (except that would start to work a bit too much like 4E for some people.)

-You could, instead, focus on their familiars. Since in a lot of the legends surrounding the sort of folks Adepts represent, the familiar as often as not plays as big a role in the magic as the mortal does. have their class features dedicated to improving the familiar's abilities and adding a few buff spells for them as well. Not sure exactly what they'd be, maybe free access to a list of bonus feats that improve familiars, maybe improve the bonuses that familiars grant, access to a list of templates that the adept could add to the familiar. Maybe the familiar gets limited access to its own spellcasting? potentially abusable, but I'm just sort of venting ideas.

[Tempest Fennac]

That could be interresting thanks. Invocations would probably be a bit too powerful, but I'll check out Binder's abilities (I know that class is quite weak, but some of its abilities could act as a good suppliment). Would allowing a familiar to grant Enshew Materials work? (It's mainly for flavour). Alternatively, a Ranger-style Companion would work to a degree.

EDIT: I was getting Binders mixed up with Incarnates somehow (I'll check Binders out soon).

[vampire2948]

How about:

1) Familiar grants you a metamagic feat every 5 levels, only usable when it's with you.

2) Imbue Staff feats tweaked for familiars?




Vampire2948,

[Tempest Fennac]

That would work as well (especially since staffs are a steriotypical impliment for this type of spellcaster). Do you guys think allowing a staff/familiar and a Ranger-style animal companion would be too unbalancing?

[F.L.]

You're upping a NPC class. There's a lot you'd have to do before it would become unbalanced. The animal companion may be pushing it though, but if it fits the flavor, go for it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. I remember someone mentioning a while back that Adepts had a really good spell list, so I was worried about overpowering it that way (I wanted it to have a relatively limited spell list which fits with the spells the class already has).

[Eldariel]

The one spell about them that is overpowered is Polymorph. That's the single reason they're on par with optimized Fighters. Take away that and you're good to go.

[Tempest Fennac]

Did you have any other advice, and do you think Polymorph is too powerful? (I don't like the idea of up-staging other party members unless they do something ridiculous like dump Con.)

[Eldariel]

I'm just pointing out why someone may have mentioned something about Adepts potentially being overpowered - if you remove their access to Polymorph, they become little more than Clerics with access to some blasting (and in exchange, losing the real juicy spell levels). So if you don't allow them to utilize Polymorph, you're free to buff them up pretty much as much as you want to. Really, an Adept is a cross between a Wizard and a Cleric by how the spells fall - lacks the versatility of both, but has tools from both sides. As long as you advance it in that manner (and remove Polymorph), you're fine.

In other words, if you DO use Polymorph, you can upset party balance plenty. If not, there's no danger whatsoever of upsetting the party balance :P

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the clarification. Apart from the familar/staff-powered Sudden Metamagics/Enchew Materials and companion, I'm not sure what else would work well (limited Wildshape would fit, but it could be too powerful, even if the only get medium shapes much later on).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hexer from Masters of the Wild (3.0 but still usable) is a really decent PrC and Adept is the only class which can meet the spellcasting prerequisite without additional tricks. Use other full casting PrCs to get out of the Adept's abysmally low HD/BAB/saves asap and it could actually be a viable character.


I once ran a super-low-magic game which used vitality and wound points and didn't allow any spellcasting classes at all other than 1/2 CL 4th level spell classes like Ranger, Paladin, and Hexblade, with Adept being the only full spellcasting class allowed (this was before Tome of Battle was printed), and Blackguard the only PrC with a separate spellcasting progression allowed. I'd houseruled that wound damage and ability damage couldn't be healed by anything but normal rest, ability drain was downgraded to ability damage, and level drain never became permanent level loss, instead allowing another save every 24 hrs to remove it. It actually worked really well, everyone had a lot of fun not being outdone by the spellcasters.

[Tempest Fennac]

Hexer looks interresting, but it wouldn't fit with the type of characters which I use (I'm useless at playing non-good characters). Also, http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...igeClasses.pdf only mentions the first 2 class levels. Don't forget that I'd only use an Adept if I could use full spellcasting progression, so it probably wouldn't be that weak (was the Adept overshadowed in your game at all? I'm just curious due to how long it takes them to gain spells).

[Fan]

0 lvl spells: Flare, and Light VERY typical for the hedge wizards.
1st: color spray, seems VERY mysticy to me, with the whole prismatic spray of light.
2nd: Summon monster II, seems like the sort of thin they would have, cept any creature they summoun would have to be infernal.. invisiblity
3rd: lightning bolt.

and just use a every third level progression for metamagic feats, that can only be used in the presence of a familiar.

[Tempest Fennac]

They already get Lightning Bolt. Thanks for the ideas (I wanted to avoid adding spells which didn't go with spells they already have, though, so Invisibility and summoning spells don't really work). Colour Spray and the Light-based Orisons fit well, though.

[CASTLEMIKE]

What about a Gestalt Sorcerer based Witch// Adept using the two NPC classes. (Witch class is on page 175 DMG you could use either the Beguiler or the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant for the spell list).

Should be comparable to a PC (Gestalt Lite with 2 NPCs) and gets some ninth level spellcasting. Probably should treat the class like a Paladin and prohibit taking PRCs that increase spellcasting in more than a single class or the suggested Gestalt rules. A strong feat would adding Arcane Disciple.

If you use the ECS variant you can give the Adept a single domain to increase known spells. ECS Sharn City of Towers slightly tweaks the Urban Adept spell list compared to the standard Adept.

What about a Psychic Adept using the psionic mechanic of the Psychic Rogue 15 first to fifth level powers with 100 PP at L20.

What about a Gestalt Binder Adept for a Cultmaster type?

[Tempest Fennac]

That honestly sounds way too complicated for me. I've seen the Witch variant on Crystal Keep, and I'm honestly not impressed due to how limited its spell list is (I decided that adding more spell levels to the Adept would be much easier, and it would be much more effective then using Witch spells later on). I don't want to use Psionics for flavour reasons, and I don't like the look of Psionics that much. Also, what are the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant and ECS variant? I don't like the idea of using Gestalt builds either due to the complexity, and it would possibly be overpowered in a normal game.

[CASTLEMIKE]

That honestly sounds way too complicated for me. I've seen the Witch variant on Crystal Keep, and I'm honestly not impressed due to how limited its spell list is (I decided that adding more spell levels to the Adept would be much easier, and it would be much more effective then using Witch spells later on). I don't want to use Psionics for flavour reasons, and I don't like the look of Psionics that much. Also, what are the Sorcerer Known Spell Variant and ECS variant? I don't like the idea of using Gestalt builds either due to the complexity, and it would possibly be overpowered in a normal game.

I agree simple is good. Gestalt lite Adept//Witch since NPC levels are weaker than PC levels.

My thought was that the DMG Witch spell list (page 175) would keep it comparable to a PC class level. Choosing known spells mechanically like a Sorcerer would be weaker than knowing the whole spell list leveling like a Beguiler or Warmage and knowing all the spells. The Witch spell list could be powered up with Feats.

ECS grants the Adept a Single Domain to increase his known spells without the daily spell bonus. The ECS (Eberron Campaign Setting) Urban Adept tweaks the spell list of the Urban Adept compared to the standard Adept.

[Tempest Fennac]

i'm still not interrested in using the Witch's spell list due to how it's so different to the Adept's spell list. (Incidentally, are the spells I added okay?)

[CASTLEMIKE]

i'm still not interrested in using the Witch's spell list due to how it's so different to the Adept's spell list. (Incidentally, are the spells I added okay?)

No issues but you could call the Variant Cloistered Cleric an Adept (Clerical spells and 3 domains, D6 and 6 SPs. (You could do the ECS trick and have the domain spells added to the known spell list instead of granting the daily bonus spell)

Nice house rule is to have a Personal Domain the PC picks the bonus spell for each level which would work well with the Variant Cloistered Cleric.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...oisteredCleric

[Tempest Fennac]

If I'm honest, I don't like CCs that much due to how I don't think their skills and skill points are worth them being nerfed as far as combat goes (also, what's wrong with the suggestions which have been made so far? I'm just curious due to how you're suggestions seem to be more complicated while being much more radical then the other ideas).

[CASTLEMIKE]

I was just thinking that it would be interresting to create a 3.5 chartacter who's an Adept with full casting, but I'm not sure how to balance them with PC classes without going overboard.

IMO a Gestalt Adept//Witch grants the PC full spellcasting with quite a bit of variety and is actually probably slightly superior to a PC through level 6 or 7 depending on the the known spells for the Witch list without feats which can improve the spell lists since both spell lists have good spells on them. I'm just offering a few suggestions like this is a brainstorming session.

If I'm honest, I don't like CCs that much due to how I don't think their skills and skill points are worth them being nerfed as far as combat goes (also, what's wrong with the suggestions which have been made so far? I'm just curious due to how you're suggestions seem to be more complicated while being much more radical then the other ideas).

Nothing however Adept comes with baggage, it conveys a certain type of spellcaster and spellcasting capablility. I think arcane/divine spellcaster with D6 capped at level 5 spells.

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't just adding to the normal spell list be easier, though? I'm guessing from your "some ninth level spellcasting" comment that you were planning on leaving the Adept spell list as it is, right?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Wouldn't just adding to the normal spell list be easier, though? I'm guessing from your "some ninth level spellcasting" comment that you were planning on leaving the Adept spell list as it is, right?

Maybe but it seems like you are doing more (which is fine) since the Adept is limited to Poor BAB, D6, a very limited known spell list, capped at fifth level spells and now you are giving them ninth level spells and more spellcasting.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought that was the simplest approach to be honest (it took less then 10 minutes to pick out Wizard and Cleric spells which I thought fitted with their existing spell list).

[mabriss lethe]

spell list:

I'm not sure I agree with the flavor of Meteor swarm. Maybe Storm of Vengeance instead. they seem more like "call up a wrathful storm" type instead of a "drop burning rocks from the sky" type.

Also, sympathy and antipathy as either an 8th or 9th level spell fit the idea of an adept really well. As crusty ol' hermits nothing says "keep out" quite so well as antipathy.

maybe glyph of warding and greater glyph, might as well add the rest of the [random animal's] Ability score buff spells to the list.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It may be. What about a Variant Favored Soul of a God of Magic? It could choose from all spell lists like (Adept, Arcane and Divine like the Variant Spellcaster). Basically just opening up spell lists the balance is the PC has limited fixed known spells from open lists.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about Storm of Vengance (I just didn't think the spell was that worthwhile, which is why I used Meteor Swarm). Also, would Sympathy and Antipathy have much of a point to them considering that Repulsion is on the list? I'll look over the Glyphs in a minute while considering adding the other animal buffs.

EDIT: I don't really like Glyph of Warding that much (it probably wouldn't be used that much in most games, and I wanted the spell list to be as versatile as possible while still being limited).

[CASTLEMIKE]

I would consider adding Lesser Planar Ally, Anyspell and Anyspell (Greater).

What about a Variant Neutral based Ur Priest PRC? The Adept PRC using the Adept and Divine spell lists?

[Tempest Fennac]

What does Anyspell do?