Bloodstorm Blade

[shadow_archmagi]

What are the best classes to take BEFORE it? That is, should I take fighter and feat my way into it? Should I take warblade, or crusader? Possibly even MONK? The campaign starts at ECL 5, which means that bloodstorm blade is juuust out of reach.

I should mention I'll be playing a warforged and would really like to have a high sense motive.

[ocato]

Probably warblade.

[shadow_archmagi]

Probably warblade.

Hmm. On a related note, how does Bloodstorm Blade related to Shock Trooper? Can I charge forward 10 feet and then make a melee *wink* power attack from 30 feet away taking an AC penalty against an enemy who probably won't even reach me?

[Chronos]

A single level of Warblade will let you meet the maneuver/stance prerequisite, so you could dip Warblade and mostly use whatever other class you want. But, of course, Warblade is pretty good.

[shadow_archmagi]

A single level of Warblade will let you meet the maneuver/stance prerequisite, so you could dip Warblade and mostly use whatever other class you want. But, of course, Warblade is pretty good.

Should I keep taking Iron Heart stuff, or is there a better school for bloodstorm blade?

What weapon should I take?

Once I get into bloodstorm blade, I'll be switching to my DM-Approved Battle Tea Set, which is identical to a longsword except hilarious. But I'll need something to pass the time while I'm level 5.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A single level of Barbarian is pretty good, especially with that strategy. A boost to Speed, Con, and Str is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you can grab the Extra Rage feat. You may want to play a Halfling or something, for the +2 to-hit/AC and bonus feat, in which case Halfling Paragon is also a good idea. If you're worried about the loss of damage, just PA away the size boost to-hit.

[ocato]

Hmm. On a related note, how does Bloodstorm Blade related to Shock Trooper? Can I charge forward 10 feet and then make a melee *wink* power attack from 30 feet away taking an AC penalty against an enemy who probably won't even reach me?

As far as I understand it, yes you could.

[Treguard]

^ the way I see it, it's like an olympic hammer thrower. After the charge you do a neat spin before launching the weapon, venting your aggression as you do.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hm. Are there any full-BAB classes out there with Sense Motive as a class skill? I'm having great difficulty finding it.

[Eldariel]

Paladin, I think.

[sonofzeal]

Master Thrower. Anything with Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade on it is going to be terrifying, no matter what you preface it with. Be a Warblade1 / CWSamuraiX for all I care, you'll still come out ludicrously.

Alternatively, go Warblade but dip 1 level each in Barbarian, Berzerker (Deities and Demigods) and Frenzied Berzerker (Complete Warrior). Then activate Rage, Battle Fury, and Frenzy at the same time.

[shadow_archmagi]

Master Thrower. Anything with Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade on it is going to be terrifying, no matter what you preface it with. Be a Warblade1 / CWSamuraiX for all I care, you'll still come out ludicrously.

Alternatively, go Warblade but dip 1 level each in Barbarian, Berzerker (Deities and Demigods) and Frenzied Berzerker (Complete Warrior). Then activate Rage, Battle Fury, and Frenzy at the same time.

A furious raging frenzy would be hilarious, given that he's a warforged with droid /servant type personality. What is master thrower in?

[Arbitrarity]

Iron heart is probably best bet for Bloodstorm Blade, particularly becuase of martial throw. Only applies to Iron Heart, so your only options at ranged are things like Strike of Perfect Clarity, Dazing Strike, Disarming Strike, etc.

Defensively, Diamond Mind check as saves, and Iron Heart surge, as well as Wall of Blades, are pretty nice.

[shadow_archmagi]

On closer inspection... increase critical MULTIPLIER? So with one feat, one level of master thrower, and one level of bloodstorm blade, I can go around hurling bastard swords with a 25% chance to do triple damage at ranged with strength multipliers?

And thats no reason I can't POWER ATTACK AS WELL?

EDIT: Darn prerequisites. I can't take master thrower until after level 5, so ts something to look forward to.

[playswithfire]

The prereqs can be a problem, but by the time you get to level 14, you can be an X 4/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5. Make every attack a ranged touch attack and power attack for as much as you like with whatever two handed weapon you're launching at them.

[shadow_archmagi]

Why master thrower 5?

[playswithfire]

The thrown weapon trick, weak spot, which can only be taken at the fifth master thrower level, makes all your thrown weapon attacks touch attacks.

[sonofzeal]

The thrown weapon trick, weak spot, which can only be taken at the fifth master thrower level, makes all your thrown weapon attacks touch attacks.

QFT. You sacrifice Strength-to-damage for that, but at higher levels the gigantic reducting in their AC allows you to powerattack them into oblivion anyway. And not relying on Str for damage, plus not having much chance of ever missing, makes for some brutal optimization potential. Halflings are a good race for this (effectively a +3 on all attack rolls), and anything that boosts number of attacks is golden. Warforged aren't really the most ideal race for this, but if you're doing it even remotely right then you should be slaughtering just about anything in the first turn or so either way, at least once you get MT5/BB1.

The Fury/Rage/Frenzy combo is much more sane... by which I mean it's terrifyingly powerful, but is limited per/day and still has to overcome traditional AC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

FB is a TRAP. It will end in a TPK the first time you blow a Will save.

Other than that, try Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion (I think). Basically, you get Pounce free. So you can make a FULL attack on your charges, with ALL your Shock Trooper/Power Attack bonuses applied to ALL of them.

[Arbitrarity]

Not true about FB, normally.

As a Bloodstorm blade however, you may be right. Grease shuts down FB in melee, but if they have thrown attacks... ick.

Wait... FB is fine if you don't go with ranged attacks, as long as the party has grease. Then you're OK.

(Grease forces balance checks, which frenzied characters automatically fail, therefore fall prone and unable to move)

[shadow_archmagi]

(Grease forces balance checks, which frenzied characters automatically fail, therefore fall prone and unable to move)

That is hilarious. So, Warblade 4 Paladin 1 sound acceptable?

[Darrin]

Hm. Are there any full-BAB classes out there with Sense Motive as a class skill? I'm having great difficulty finding it.

Duskblade gets Sense Motive. See if your DM will let you take Precocious Apprentice to get into Jade Phoenix Mage. Swashbuckler also gets it, if you want to do an Int-based Warblade build.

Also, if you take Martial Study to pick up a Setting Sun maneuver, it adds Sense Motive to your class skills. Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1) can be a nice way to shut down a PA/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack wombat. If you wait to get Martial Study until ECL 6, Baffling Defense (Setting Sun 2, Sense Motive check to dodge an attack) or Clever Positioning (Setting Sun 2, standard action to swap places with opponent, great when flying over cliffs/pit traps) can also be good.

In Cityscape, there's an Alternate Class Feature that lets you swap Survival as a class skill for Sense Motive. You can do this with any class that has Survival, so it works for Spirit Lion Totem Barbarians and Rangers. While you're at it, you can also swap your Ride skill for Tumble. It's even posted on the WotC site as an excerpt:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not true about FB, normally.

As a Bloodstorm blade however, you may be right. Grease shuts down FB in melee, but if they have thrown attacks... ick.

Wait... FB is fine if you don't go with ranged attacks, as long as the party has grease. Then you're OK.

(Grease forces balance checks, which frenzied characters automatically fail, therefore fall prone and unable to move)

Almost, but not quite correct. It simply says that anything walking in or through it must make a balance check. If you're doing a Leap Attack charge build, he won't need to walk anywhere since he'll be jumping, making it valueless for the build.

[Person_Man]

Here's a build idea that Darrin posted in another thread - you might want to consider Factotum and Master of Masks.

Factotum 3/Warblade 2/Master of Masks 1/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 9. Key abilities:

All Skills as class Skills (forever with Able Learner feat)
Brains Over Brawn: Int bonus to all Str and Dex Skills/checks (like Trip)
One stance and five manuevers
Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge
Prof with all Exotic weapons (razor net, orcish shotput, harpoon, others).
Quick Draw
Evasion
Increased crit multiplier
Thrown weapon attacks are also Trip attacks
Thrown weapon attacks are touch attacks
Bloodstorm crazyness

Note - Master Thrower tricks only apply to a weapon that you have Weapon Focus in. This is why Weapon Aptitude is important. It allows you to change your Weapon Focus every morning. Alternatively, you can skip Master Thrower, and go for variety. There are a huge number of exotic weapons out there, and you can use and throw all of them.

The 10th level Bloodstorm ability is Blade Storm, which really isn't important in my opinion. If you're in a room of enemies who can be killed with one hit, the 20th level Wizard in your party has it covered. You could also drop the 9th level of Bloodstorm for anything else - you just miss out on a bonus feat.

There are plenty of combos in the thread I posted that you might want to look at. In particular, net + spell storing Lasso to quickly debuff. Or Harpoon + Lightning Ricochet = double damage on every attack.

If anyone bothers to flesh out the Factotum/Master of Masks/Bloodstorm build, feel free to post it on the Haberdash thread as well. I'm trying to get as many options as possible on it. Thanks.

[RTGoodman]

That is hilarious. So, Warblade 4 Paladin 1 sound acceptable?

Wait... people on take one level of Paladin? I'd stick it out for two levels, at least, for Divine Grace. And take the Paladin levels before your last level of Warblade so you can pick up higher-level maneuvers that you'd be able to if you took all the Warblade levels first.

[shadow_archmagi]

Here's a build idea that Darrin posted in another thread - you might want to consider Factotum and Master of Masks.

Factotum 3/Warblade 2/Master of Masks 1/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 9. Key abilities:

All Skills as class Skills (forever with Able Learner feat)
Brains Over Brawn: Int bonus to all Str and Dex Skills/checks (like Trip)
One stance and five manuevers
Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge
Prof with all Exotic weapons (razor net, orcish shotput, harpoon, others).
Quick Draw
Evasion
Increased crit multiplier
Thrown weapon attacks are also Trip attacks
Thrown weapon attacks are touch attacks
Bloodstorm crazyness

Note - Master Thrower tricks only apply to a weapon that you have Weapon Focus in. This is why Weapon Aptitude is important. It allows you to change your Weapon Focus every morning. Alternatively, you can skip Master Thrower, and go for variety. There are a huge number of exotic weapons out there, and you can use and throw all of them.

The 10th level Bloodstorm ability is Blade Storm, which really isn't important in my opinion. If you're in a room of enemies who can be killed with one hit, the 20th level Wizard in your party has it covered. You could also drop the 9th level of Bloodstorm for anything else - you just miss out on a bonus feat.

There are plenty of combos in the thread I posted that you might want to look at. In particular, net + spell storing Lasso to quickly debuff. Or Harpoon + Lightning Ricochet = double damage on every attack.

If anyone bothers to flesh out the Factotum/Master of Masks/Bloodstorm build, feel free to post it on the Haberdash thread as well. I'm trying to get as many options as possible on it. Thanks.

I love the character concept of haberdash, but judging by my campaign history, its unlikely I'll last long enough to complete the build. If we get to 10th level and it falls apart there, I'll be impressed it lasted that long.

[Hal]

Hmm. On a related note, how does Bloodstorm Blade related to Shock Trooper? Can I charge forward 10 feet and then make a melee *wink* power attack from 30 feet away taking an AC penalty against an enemy who probably won't even reach me?

I'm not sure you can, I think charges have to be melee attacks.

A great feat for this is Hurling Charge from the Miniatures Handbook. It lets you throw a weapon, then quick draw another one as part of a charge. You effectively get two attacks, the throw and the normal charge, and both count as part of the charge. Take feats for power attacking with a thrown weapon and you're in business.

Unfortunately, if you're taking something that lets you full attack on a charge, you lose the ability to do that when you perform this maneuver.

[RTGoodman]

I'm not sure you can, I think charges have to be melee attacks.

Don't have access to ToB right now, but doesn't the Bloodstorm Blade say that its thrown weapon attacks count as melee attacks for "all purposes" or something like that? If so, you could make a case for being able to charge forward to get momentum and then heave your weapon. Isn't that how you throw a javelin (like in the Olympics, not in D&D)?

[MammonAzrael]

Ok, looking at the class, is there any good reason to take Bloodstorm Blade higher than 4th (or maybe 5th) level? It's two fighter feats, two pseudo-stances, and a giant mook-killing move that magic can handle much better.

[NEO|Phyte]

Don't have access to ToB right now, but doesn't the Bloodstorm Blade say that its thrown weapon attacks count as melee attacks for "all purposes" or something like that? If so, you could make a case for being able to charge forward to get momentum and then heave your weapon. Isn't that how you throw a javelin (like in the Olympics, not in D&D)?

It has a swift action ability that lets it treat its ranged attacks as melee attacks until the end of its turn.