How do I convince my DM that he is an idiot?

[EvilRoeSlade]

To lay down some background, it's near the end of our session at my gaming group, and we're in a dungeon cruising around with an iron golem we found and activated. We run into a gelatinous cube and during the fight the golem picks it up and lifts it over its head in order to throw it into a bottomless pit in the middle of the room. Before that happens though, I want to continue slashing it with my greatsword. The DM says that I can attack it from beneath, but since that isn't cool enough I say that I want to run up the side of the golem and leap through the air, slashing it in half. I roll an athletics check and get a 17.

So far so good, but then...

My abysmal DM says that he needs to check and see if my character gets his foot stuck in the golem's joint. He does this by making an attack roll for the golem using its normal attack bonus. He gets a natural 20 and tells me that since I got my foot stuck I take 20 damage (apparently he also decided it would be appropriate to deal the golem's normal slam damage. I'm not in top shape at that point (I'm only level 1) so that's enough to knock me unconscious. I manage to complain enough to get my hit points back up to 5, but I'm still not satisfied.

So, being reasonably sure that my DM won't read this, I turn to my fellow playgrounders. How would you explain to my DM that he's an idiot?

[Pink]

Ask him why he felt that was necessary?

It's one thing if you had rolled a natural one. I sort've use fumbles on occasion (Actually, my tabletop group seems to expect and encourage it. They seem more happy if that natural 1 just broke that magical weapon they found then if it had just been a miss), but only in situations where, let's face it, the character rolled low and therefore there should be a chance of them falling flat on their face.

Also, ask, How exactly getting your foot stuck deal damage. Let alone 20 damage. It would be one thing if it was "Your foot gets stuck, you trip take <1d6> damage." It makes sense. What exactly happened that hurt you to such a degree that you take probably more than half your hit points in damage?

That being said, if this was last session, i suggest ignoring it. It might've been a one time thing, perhaps you guys didn't get as hurt as he wanted. Immature but hey, Vengeful DM happens to the best of us. (I was particularly hurt once in my 3.5 game when a well placed web and scorching ray destroyed 20 some mooks before they had a chance to swarm). Anyway, if it occurs again, and it definately seems unfair, I'd confront him, most of all by saying "Randomly dealing me damage for things that don't make sense is not my idea of fun." I mean, it's one thing if he wants to make things harder. He could fudge damage results, hurt you more than what it would really be. A player of mine who was the former DM says that he often rolled the dice just for the effect and he's constantly surprised that I actually use the results (most of the time...)

I'll probably be ninjaed somehow.

[Knaight]

You're character was running up an iron golem, and got his/her foot stuck, and then crushed, dealing. I fail to see the problem here, assuming that the GM would have let you do some damage had you pulled the move off successfully.

[Kiren]

my dm makes my blind char run into trees, he was robbed of 9k of potions and thats the first two sessions

[Deepblue706]

Tell him "You're an idiot", and punch him in the nads.

Although, if you want to try to fix the DM, explain how an attack roll has nothing to do with fumbling - you should argue that his rule makes no sense unless everytime you miss an orc in combat, you take a fall that deals damage equal to his weapon die roll. 'Cuz you happened to be doing something involving an orc, and therefore should you fail it means you got smacked by him, regardless of what was actually going on. In fact, I think you should argue this should carry on to outside of combat, when you're making, say, Diplomacy checks.

And if anything, fumbles should be determined by a degree of failure (nat 1's suck only in attack rolls and saves). He owes you an explanation of why you might take that much damage, in fact, PRIOR to your attempt - such as "Well, honestly I think that's a rather extraordinary thing to do - that'll probably take your very best, and you could get hurt if you fail". And, then, proceed to allow you to rethink your actions, based on what he says (I think this counts as your character having some vague awareness of his own abilities).

[Akimbo]

You're character was running up an iron golem, and got his/her foot stuck, and then crushed, dealing. I fail to see the problem here, assuming that the GM would have let you do some damage had you pulled the move off successfully.

I'm sorry, did you pay attention. He ran up a friendly creature and succeeded in a check to do so.

Then the Dm for absolutely no discernible reason decided that for a "foot stuck" mechanic (which shouldn't even exist in the first place, seeing as he succeeded) he should have the Golem role an attack with no penalty and then do damage as if he had slammed the guy in the face with his fist.

Sorry not buying it.

And he pretty clearly was not going to allow him to do damage on a success, because he did succeed.

That's like after every single attack role saying: Well you did hit AC, but before we roll damage, I'm going to have to see if you accidentally hit yourself, so we'll roll the enemies attack against your AC, and if he hits, you take the damage from your own attack.

[tyckspoon]

You're character was running up an iron golem, and got his/her foot stuck, and then crushed, dealing. I fail to see the problem here, assuming that the GM would have let you do some damage had you pulled the move off successfully.

I think it's the bit where he had the Golem attack the character as the means of seeing whether or not he succeeded, apparently instead of referencing the character's own skill check. And then had the golem, which pretty much can't miss any level 1 character I know of, deal its own normal attack damage, which is far more than a level 1 character is supposed to be trying to tank. That's a level of unplanned, unfun, and frankly dumb danger up there with having critical fumbles mean the character somehow drives his own sword through his eyes.

Back to Original Poster:
Then again, you're apparently a level 1 party that has acquired (at least temporarily) an Iron Golem buddy. That was about to pull a SPAARTAAAAA on a Gelatinous Cube, despite your typical Cube being too heavy and too awkwardly shaped for your typical Golem to lift. I think you're probably going to have to get used to off-the-cuff rulings that don't make very much sense from this GM.

[thubby]

You're character was running up an iron golem, and got his/her foot stuck, and then crushed, dealing. I fail to see the problem here, assuming that the GM would have let you do some damage had you pulled the move off successfully.

i think its more a matter of how this was decided. the golem is more likely to crush her (an ally) because it is a good combatant?!?
and why is the golem's abilities involved at all? it isn't trying to hurt her, if anything it wants to avoid it.
and full slam damage, it's not attacking, this is incidental damage if it's relevant at all. thats like saying me punching you and me elbowing you while reaching for change in my pocket are the same thing.
its very simple really, if she succeeded on the check she successfully scales the golem. she did that, having her foot crushed is clearly an indication of not just not succeeding, but full on failure.

[Waspinator]

I suggest the Red vs Blue approach.

"You are a (censored) idiot and I'd like to prove this mathematically if I may. Take your current age. Now subtract ten years from it. Were you smart back then? Of course you weren't! You were a (censored) idiot! Fact of the matter is, you're just as big an idiot today; it's just going to take you ten more years to realize it."

[drengnikrafe]

What DM makes you do stuff that's more cool? That's absurd. I recall one time, a fellow PC in a campaign... (I know you're all thinking "here comes another weird story. Oh well, let's humor him...) he ran away from the battle a bit, bluffed he was actually fleeing, climbed onto a roof, balanced across the rickety roof quietly, hid on the edge of the roof for a second, then jumped down to surprise the enemy. All this for his Sneak Attack bonus. We practically gave him a standing ovation.

"Cool attacks" in D&D are the choice of the PC, and should be lightly applauded, not a requirement by the DM.


For actually fixing the problem, show him this thread, and how a bunch of us think he's a bonehead.

[Malicte]

I'd simply ask him why he thought it was necessary for you to even have to deal with some sort of failure since your skill check was successful.

If he gives you a decent reason, you'll have somewhere to start talking.

If he says, "Because I said so.", it's time to find a new DM.

[Admiral_Kelly]

My recommended solution: Get a new DM.

[skywalker]

Tell him very politely and away from the other players that you don't think that was fair. First of all, for a level 1 character, 15 should be the hardest athletics check you have to make unless you are doing something epic. Then again, you were running up the side of the golem...

Regardless, tell him you don't think it was appropriate to roll an attack roll for the golem, that your athletics check should probably suffice.

Also, what everyone else has said about how getting your foot stuck is not getting punched in the face. However, realize that your DM's eyes probably lit up when he saw that nat-20. Every DM gets carried away sometimes when he sees those.

I recommend specifically that you speak to him away from the other players. This will limit the possibility that he sees what you're doing as questioning his authority.

What I think you've got here, however, is a DM who thinks he can get away with occasionally screwing you because he gives you cool stuff way before you're supposed to have it(Iron Golem at level 1?) You might have to accept it so you can get your zany fun stuff.

[Starshade]

Unless that is an Abyssal Foot Stucker Golem i think it sound as you annoyed your DM somehow

He might think you rollplaying too much, or somehow got annoyed at the thing? Id not make much out of it, new DM perhaps? If so, i think he just need time to get used to DMing, to sit back and let the players have fun messing around a little.

[CASTLEMIKE]

To lay down some background, it's near the end of our session at my gaming group, and we're in a dungeon cruising around with an iron golem we found and activated. We run into a gelatinous cube and during the fight the golem picks it up and lifts it over its head in order to throw it into a bottomless pit in the middle of the room. Before that happens though, I want to continue slashing it with my greatsword. The DM says that I can attack it from beneath, but since that isn't cool enough I say that I want to run up the side of the golem and leap through the air, slashing it in half. I roll an athletics check and get a 17.

So far so good, but then...

My abysmal DM says that he needs to check and see if my character gets his foot stuck in the golem's joint. He does this by making an attack roll for the golem using its normal attack bonus. He gets a natural 20 and tells me that since I got my foot stuck I take 20 damage (apparently he also decided it would be appropriate to deal the golem's normal slam damage. I'm not in top shape at that point (I'm only level 1) so that's enough to knock me unconscious. I manage to complain enough to get my hit points back up to 5, but I'm still not satisfied.

So, being reasonably sure that my DM won't read this, I turn to my fellow playgrounders. How would you explain to my DM that he's an idiot?

Well he did give your party control of a Iron Golem at first level.

He told you how you could attack the gelatinous cube safely which your PC ignored.

He is the DM perhaps this is not an isolated cool incident and he is tiring of it. (DMing is a lot more work than playing a PC (Perhaps some of the other players have talked to him privately))

He did not kill your PC and let you talk him into lowering the damage he received.

You can always find another DM or take turns with him I'm sure he would enjoy playing occassionally.

[Tengu_temp]

Present him a simple problem from a field he's weak at and ask him to solve it.
DM: "I don't know how to do that."
You: "Because you're an idiot!"

Alternatively, cover his favorite food in sharp, but hard to see spikes, leave it in plain sight and observe.

[MartinHarper]

Perhaps this is not an isolated cool incident and he is tiring of it.

Or he's trying to run a gritty, non-cinematic campaign, and is taking an in-game solution to cut down on acrobatic stunts, rather than being open and saying so. Regardless, talk to him about whether he wants his game to have cool tricks in or not.

[Knaight]

i think its more a matter of how this was decided. the golem is more likely to crush her (an ally) because it is a good combatant?!?

That is an issue, but there are several ways of handling that, and the golems roll could have been part luck, as in it was built for that, and while throwing the cube the way it was built caused the foot to get stuck. Thats not how I would have run that, as I would have given a save, and probably double damage for success too.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Or he's trying to run a gritty, non-cinematic campaign, and is taking an in-game solution to cut down on acrobatic stunts, rather than being open and saying so. Regardless, talk to him about whether he wants his game to have cool tricks in or not.

Maybe he is taking things out of context like you are quoting my point out of context. There are always two sides to a story.

We weren't there and the DM isn't here to give his side of the story. The encounter was clearly resolved until the PC had to do something cool beyond a final attack and the DM had to adapt his tactics on the fly. Maybe the DM is a stickler for holding PCs accountable for what they say in game. He stated he was running up the side of the iron golem to make an attack, unless the PC can levitate the DM is within his rights to have him make a check on the way down when gravity kicks in after the attack. Maybe the DM was going to have half the gelatinous cube fall on the PC unless he made a save to make the encounter really cool but rolled the dice in front of the players getting that Nat 20 so the PC just caught his foot in the iron golem.

[Gavin Sage]

Making an attack roll in this situation is utterly ridiculous and you should refuse to take any damage from this. For that matter getting the foot stuck should be handled in the initial roll if you say fail the DC by a substanial margin or get a 1.

As such you should refuse to take the damage and simply say the attempt fails and move on. Though for that matter whether you could have done such an attack is something I'd question allowing to begin with. I mean how does one run up an Iron Golem, and aren't Gelatinous Cubes rather big to cut in half?

That said the Golem getting an attack make zero sense, an attack is an action requiring time and effort. It should have its actions taken while holding the cube, which seems odd to begin with but in anycase it can't attack without effort.

Refuse to take the damage, fail, and move along. If the DM does this often find a way to hijack/derail the game and watch him squirm before having rocks fall.

[Jayabalard]

How would you explain to my DM that he's an idiot?

I wouldn't

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by convincing him that he's an idiot?

You'd be much better off focusing on convincing him that he made a ruling that felt unfair, and working on getting him to make rulings that are more fair and more fun in the future.

[Akimbo]

So are we all just going to ignore the fact that he rolled a successful check? Are we going to pretend that the DMs job is to set up eight roles and if you fail at any one then you fail at your action?

Seriously:

DM: Roll an Athletics to see if you can do it.
Player: 17
DM: Excellent you succeed, but I hate you so the Golem punches you in the face.

[Jayabalard]

So are we all just going to ignore the fact that he rolled a successful check?

The OP didn't actually say that he succeeded; from the DM's reaction, it looks to me like he was ruling that 17 was not a success.

[Pink]

The OP didn't actually say that he succeeded; from the DM's reaction, it looks to me like he was ruling that 17 was not a success.

Whether he succeeded or not, a 17 does not seem to qualify as a failure that should warrant getting the equivalent of being attacked by the golem. If it failed, well then, he simply would fail to properly climb the golem in the first place and just not be able to attack. The fact that instead of this, the DM ended up doing 20 damage to a first level character, seem like maliciousness.

[Jayabalard]

it seems a lot more likely to me that it's as MartinHarper suggested... the GM is trying to run a more realistic, less cinematic campaign and is trying to discourage the player from trying ridiculous (to him) acrobatic stunts.

So the fix for that is to talk to the GM, discuss your discontent over the ruling, come to a meeting of minds as to the style of the game, and then enjoy the game or don't play. Trying to convince the GM that he's an idiot is counter productive.

[skywalker]

it seems a lot more likely to me that it's as MartinHarper suggested... the GM is trying to run a more realistic, less cinematic campaign and is trying to discourage the player from trying ridiculous (to him) acrobatic stunts.

This theory doesn't seem(to me) to jive with the iron golem at first level, followed by the iron golem chucking the gelatinous cube into a pit...

But maybe that's just me.

[lord_khaine]

this sounds a bit like the golem is the gm's pc, and he was annoyed over having the OP running around on his golem.

[BRC]

Though the way the DM handled it was kinda off, I don't disagree with the premise. First off all, I think it would have been a Dex check, maybe climb or tumble to avoid getting your foot caught in the joints, and secondly, it shouldn't have counted as a slam attack in terms of damage.


That said, WTF is a level 1 party doing with a pet iron golem?

[TheElfLord]

What DM makes you do stuff that's more cool?

The PC decided that simply slashing it wasn't cool enough, and decided to show off his awesomeness by climbing up the golem. The DM did not make the PC up the coolness.

[chiasaur11]

Hmmm...
That Golem says DMPC to me. Way overpowered compared to party, Cool, does all the work...

I doubt it'll get much better.