Therianthropes (Template) PEACH

[Lyndworm]

Some of my therianthrope-loving brethren have made similar attempts here and here.

I've never really liked the way that WoTC handles lycanthropy/therianthropy. So I made my own template. I'm pretty sure that it's a little over powered. Any thoughts?

"Therianthrope" is an acquired template that can be added to any Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid hereafter referred to as the base creature. A Therianthrope uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the Shapechanger subtype. Size is unchanged.

The Therianthrope takes on the characteristics of a creature of the Animal or Vermin type, hereafter referred to as the base animal. A Therianthrope can change shapes, adopting either the form of the base animal or a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A Therianthrope’s hybrid form is either the same size as the base creature, one size smaller, or one size larger, whichever is closer to the size of the base animal.

There is no minimum or maximum size for the base animal.

Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the Therianthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed or the base animal's speed, whichever is higher. Hybrids gain Swim and Climb speeds if the base creature or base animal possessed such movement modes.

Armor Class: The natural armor bonuses of the base creature and base animal remain unchanged. In hybrid form, the Therianthrope’s natural armor bonus is equal to the natural armor bonus of the base animal or the base creature, whichever is better.

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the Therianthrope is using. A Therianthrope in hybrid form gains the natural weapons of the base animal in addition to those of the base creature. If this would lead to having the same kind of natural attack more than once on the same limb, use whichever is better.

These weapons deal damage appropriate to the hybrid form’s size. A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a natural weapon, or may attack only with its natural weapons. The natural attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack.

Special Attacks: A Therianthrope retains the special attacks of the base creature or base animal, depending on which form it is using.

A Therianthrope’s hybrid form gains all applicable special attacks of the base animal. A Therianthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form.

Special Qualities: A Therianthrope retains all the extraordinary qualities of the base creature and also gains the following qualities.

Alternate Form (Su): A Therianthrope can assume the form of a specific Animal or Vermin (as indicated in its entry). It assumes the ability scores of the base animal, but also adds it's own physical ability score modifiers to the creature's ability scores. A Therianthrope can also assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features. When in hybrid form the creature does not assume the ability scores of the base animal, but instead adds the base animal’s physical ability score modifiers to it's own ability scores.

If an ability score is raised after creating a Therianthrope, raise the ability score in all forms. Do not recalculate base abilities scores.

Changing to or from beast or hybrid form is a standard action.

Therianthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, Therianthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “foe,” “flee,” and “attack.”

Low-Light Vision (Ex): A Therianthrope has low-light vision in any form.

Scent (Ex): If the base animal possesses the Scent extraordinary ability, so too does the Therianthrope in all forms.

Feats: Add the base animal’s bonus feats to the base creature. These feats should be denoted as racial bonus feats.

It’s possible that a Therianthrope cannot meet the prerequisites for all its feats when in humanoid form. If this occurs, the Therianthrope still has the feats, but cannot use them when in humanoid form.

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base animal.

Organization: Solitary or pair, sometimes family (3–4), pack (6–10), or troupe (family plus related animals)

Challenge Rating: By class level or base creature, modified according to the CR of the base animal. If the base animal has a fractional CR, round up.

Treasure: Standard

Alignment: Any

Advancement: By character class.

Level Adjustment: Equal to the CR of the base animal. If the base animal has a fractional CR, round up.

[Zeta Kai]

I wouldn't say that this is overpowered, especially considering the Level Adjustment (minimum +1). But can you tell us what exactly irks you about the RAW 'thropes?

[Norr]

Interesting... I've actually been working on something like this, though it's a ****load of text as of now.

But lets see, the hybrid form is by far the most powerful since a weretiger (the classic munchkin therianthrope) can get absurdly high strength while at the same time using magic weaponry. althought the scaling LA rectifies a lot of problems with the old 'lycanthropes'.

The sad thing is that the therianthropes no longer have their traditional weakness to silver, lathought it makes sense to lose the DR mechanics-wise.

I also see that you have dropped the therianthropic affliction, which makes things easier and more like a sub-race.

Anyway, as far as everything is concerned I think this is a good change.

[Lyndworm]

@ Zeta:
I'm glad to hear what you think. As to why I don't like the RAW lycanthropes, there are several reasons.

I don't like that only predators and omnivores are suiitable base animals for lycanthropy.

I don't like the HD and LA.

I don't like the Control Shape/involuntary shifting mechanics.

I don't like how lycanthropes are automatically wiser and more willful than everyone else.

I don't like the complicated/dangerous "cure" for lycanthropy.

I don't like the alignment changing elements involved.

Things of that nature.



@Norr:
I'd be peased to hear more of your own works. TO be honest, I was inspired to post this by the Were-world thread. They, too, use CR-as-LA, which made me think to post this.

I can see the potential for abuse, but if players want to practice munchkinery they're going to do it. The addition or removal of this template isn't going to stop it, and it shouldn't, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

The idea of the weakness to silver and the afflicted lycanthropes is a simple one. If they're elements that you miss, I could write something up for them. I just don't see where they fit in particularly well with the way my players and I want to use Therianthropes.

How's this?

Spoiler

Show

"Afflicted" Therianthropes have DR5/silver, an extra +1LA, and spread the Therianthrope's Curse.

"Natural" Therianthropes have DR10/silver, an extra +2LA, and add 3 to the DC of their Therianthrope's Curse.

Therianthrope's Curse (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a Therianthrope’s bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortutude save or contract Therianthropy.

There's some optional rules for a more traditional flavor.

I'm glad to see that you like it. I've yet to use it in a campaign, but I have uncharacteristically high hopes for it.



Zack

[DracoDei]

For cross-referencing purposes, here is a link to the were-world thread.


My first reading reactions to your intended purposes follows:

@ Zeta:
I'm glad to hear what you think. As to why I don't like the RAW lycanthropes, there are several reasons.

I don't like that only predators and omnivores are suitable base animals for lycanthropy.

Are boars omnivores? I thought they were just really irritable herbivores?
In any case I agree...

I don't like the HD and LA.

LA is just a matter of getting the balance right...

I don't like the Control Shape/involuntary shifting mechanics.

Don't like the MECHANICS, or don't like the CONCEPT? Because in the second case you (or someone...) should have a go at coming up with better mechanics.

I don't like how lycanthropes are automatically wiser and more willful than everyone else.

Seconded... no idea why they did that... anybody got an idea?

I don't like the complicated/dangerous "cure" for lycanthropy.

If you mean the bit with wolf-bane, then that is probably trying to pull elements of the legends in...

I don't like the alignment changing elements involved.

Again, comes with the legends.

[Norr]

Okay, here you got the beastie I wrote up during the past 4-5 days: Revamped therianthrope.

Most of the text is fluff and clarifications. Most of it fits in the reference block at the end.

[Lyndworm]

@Draco Dei:
Boars are perhaps the second best example of omnivores I can think of, with the first being humans. They, like us, will eat virtually anything. Including things that have been rotting for days, or came out of something else. Though they rarely hunt, they will not hesitate to kill and eat something that they stumble across.

I agree with your LA/balance assessment. However, D&D seems to intentionally penalize anything that doesn't look like, talk like, and move like a human.

I'm not a fan of the mechanics or the concept, to be honest. Though if some interest was shown I might write up some alternate mechanics.

Yeah, they did it that way characters with poor will saves didn't automatically become Chaotic Evil werewolves. Having a reason doesn't make it a good idea, though.

I'm sure it is, but I just don't like it. My pompous ego and I insist it's not a good idea.

See above.



@Norr:
An interesting take on the problem at hand. I still prefer mine, but yours is admittedly much better than RAW.



Zack

[DracoDei]

Boars are perhaps the second best example of omnivores I can think of, with the first being humans. They, like us, will eat virtually anything. Including things that have been rotting for days, or came out of something else. Though they rarely hunt, they will not hesitate to kill and eat something that they stumble across.

Ah... the herbivore/scavenger balance is no surprise really, and the opportunistic killing makes sense I guess. Gah... I really should know this stuff...

[Lyndworm]

Don't feel bad. I have a couple dozen ranks in Knowledge (Things that don't matter right now and probably never will).

Zack

[DracoDei]

Yeah, but as a furry fan I am something of an amateur zoologist/biologist/comparative anatomist.

[Mr. Zook]

great idea, but needs LA to prevent uber munchkining, but yeah no herbivores realy fit the bill

[Lyndworm]

@Draco Dei:
I'm not much of a furry fan (Nothing against them. I read Jack, but only 'cause it's awesome, not because of the furries or NSFW material.) but I'm quite the avid zoologist/cryptozoologist-biologist/cryptobiologist-anatomist myself. Something about the efficiency and beauty of biological mechanisms resonates within me.

That sounded a little odd, but I'm OK with it.



@Mr. Zook
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If you have the time, please rephrase your post.

Until then, I'll go ahead and respond as best I can:

great idea

Thanks for your support.

needs LA to prevent uber munchkining

It has LA. Whatever the base animal's CR is you add as LA. For example, a tiger is CR 4, so a tiger Therianthrope has 4 LA. This does lead to some obvious munchkin potential, but if you can't trust your players not to break the game then they shouldn't have access to game-breaking material.

If you mean that it needs more LA, than thanks for your oppinion. However, you might want to refer to the last sentence of the previous paragraph.

yeah no herbivores realy fit the bill

I'm completely lost, here. Either you're saying that no herbivore 'fits the bill' for a Therianthrope, or you're saying that you agree that herbivore's should be allowed. Either way, this is really more of a fluffy-oppinon-deal. If you disagree with me, then feel free to use this template but only allow predators and omnivores. If you agree with me, then thank you for your continued support.



Zack

[DracoDei]

Well, whichever Dr Zook thinks, I definitely think herbavores have a place. I mean... were-elephants? Were-porcupines? Were-Armadillos? Were-Rabbits*? Werehorses? Were-Elk? Were-Fruitbats? Were-Swans? Were-Humming Birds**? Were-rams? Opinions may vary on a case by case basis, but very few people could tell me that NONE of those are worth having.
* think more Usagi Yojimbo, or even Bucky O'Hare than the Wallace and Gromit thing
**Now THERE is something to build a the ultimate mobility and weapon finesse based character around... Finding an applicable base humanoid race might prove a TAD difficult though...

[Lyndworm]

Were-Elephant Dwarf Barbarian.

Were-Rabbit Halfling Paladin.

Were-Porcupine Orc Rogue.

I. Must. Have. These.

Zack

P.S.
A while back I looked for a rabbit and couldn't find stats for one. Outraged, I proceeded to make a rabbit and a dire rabbit. A Were-Rabbit Halfling Paladin has been on my mind since then.

[DracoDei]

Ok, but why Rogue for the Orc Were-porcupine?
And Elphants are Huge, which breaks the "Within one Size Catagory" rule... would have to settle for a boar or a bull, or change that rule (perhaps with a 1st level only feat???)

[Lyndworm]

Because the idea of a big brawny orc with porcupine quills making tumble checks is awesome.

Perhaps I should add clarification to the original post. If you read it agian, you'll see that no maximum or minimum size is given. The only stipulation is a limit on the hybrid form's size, the base animal itself can be any size.

Sorry for the confusion.

Zack

[Mr. Zook]

sorry, just me being well, me

[Lyndworm]

As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm, that didn't help me understand your previous post in the slightest.

Zack

[Mr. Zook]

thats my job and i do stuff if you try to steal it

[Lyndworm]

I'm officially perplexed.

Zack