underage characters

[thtoneguy]

i wasn't quite sure whaere to post this so i eventually decided to put it here.

i got this idea after reading the champion article in the gaming section.

it occured to me that a child of any race could find such a relic and an avatar decide him or her worthy despite their young age.
this has interesting potential. perhaps a child who was being trained in a class was somehow separated from their trainer and then continued on their own. thus creating a new age group for D&D, underage. this could also lead to interesting plots in towns and such.
"I'm not selling weapons to a kid."
"Your not old enough to drink"
you know all that stuff that either currently annoys you or annoyed you as a kid. I have never been able to make up thigs that didn't completely unbalanced any game that i have ever played due to creativity or lack thereof so i leave it up to you avid readers of the board make it community brewed.

[black dragoon]

D20 modern I believe may have rules for such a thing. Possible not positive though.

[Stormthorn]

I found a set of homebrewed rules for dnd 3.5 child characters. Dont remember were tho.

[Tengu_temp]

{Scrubbed}

[snoopy13a]

I'd suggest:

Str: -3
Dex: +0
Con: -2
Int: -1 (brain hasn't fully developed yet)
Wis: -2 (immature)
Chr: +0

Other mods:

Small size (even if of medium race)
+2 Diplomacy
-4 Intimidate

Restricted to classes that are "simple" for starting age (Barbarian, Rogue, Sorceror)

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I'll personally find you, bite off your ankles, stuff various dice up your nose and shove bananas into your ears if you suggest that kids should have higher dexterity and/or charisma than adults. Yes, you, the guy/gal who wanted to suggest that before reading this warning. If you give the explanation that it's because kids are small and agile and/or cute, I'll also cut off your eyelids and force you to watch the first DND movie.

Higher dex maybe, but how would they have higher Charisma? Plus they would have less str.

[Jigsawz]

So, basically we're talking about halflings with pimples?

[Fan]

I'll personally find you, bite off your ankles, stuff various dice up your nose and shove bananas into your ears if you suggest that kids should have higher dexterity and/or charisma than adults. Yes, you, the guy/gal who wanted to suggest that before reading this warning. If you give the explanation that it's because kids are small and agile and/or cute, I'll also cut off your eyelids and force you to watch the first DND movie.

I have raised FOUR kids they DO have higher dex up until they reach the age of 15, and they have higher Cha till they reach the age of 12, then they're just annoying.

[thtoneguy]

wow always great to see a post take off.
ne who i wasnt suggesting any stats partially because of the fact that people would have disagreements. that is not to say i plan on pleasing every1 but its nice to have more people agree than disagree. anyhow i am really interested to see how this turns out please continue.

[Stormthorn]

I have raised FOUR kids they DO have higher dex up until they reach the age of 15, and they have higher Cha till they reach the age of 12, then they're just annoying.

I leanr somehting new about FF Fanboy every day.

[Fan]

I leanr somehting new about FF Fanboy every day.

doesn't everyone? I will admit to being more open on these boards then I should be though.

[thtoneguy]

oh it occurs to me that underrage is kind of a bad name as far as common use. if someone could think of something better I'd gladly use it instead.

[Fan]

Adolesent? Thats the sceintific name for it.

[Stormthorn]

oh it occurs to me that underrage is kind of a bad name as far as common use. if someone could think of something better I'd gladly use it instead.

Nothing wrong with underage. Except everytime i hear it i think of two things.

One is the book Lolita.

And the other is the scene in Excel Saga where Excel is raped by a robot that looks like a 13 year old girl.

Actualy...yea, lets not use underage.

[Starsinger]

Str: -3
Dex: +0
Con: -2
Int: -1 (brain hasn't fully developed yet)
Wis: -2 (immature)
Chr: +0

Other mods:

Small size (even if of medium race)
+2 Diplomacy

So, it seems little kids are fluxxed when it comes to classes that don't operate on Dex or Charisma. This must be a gamist thing or something, because I don't see anything that would make me want to play an Adolescent, other than turning 15 and suddenly gaining 8 (pre-spent) stat points.

As for the +2 diplomacy... hah! Like adults treat children seriously.

[SoD]

I'd suggest:

Str: -3
Dex: +0
Con: -2
Int: -1 (brain hasn't fully developed yet)
Wis: -2 (immature)
Chr: +0

Other mods:

Small size (even if of medium race)
+2 Diplomacy
-4 Intimidate

Restricted to classes that are "simple" for starting age (Barbarian, Rogue, Sorceror)

-2 wis? I'd actually give them +2 wisdom...children can be suprisingly perceptive...but for starting classes? Sorcerer, I can see. Rogue? Yeah, I guess. But barbarian? "Mum? Can I have some milk?" "No, honey. If you drink any more, you'll wet the bed again." "But I want some milk!" "Mummy's said no, dearest." "Aah! Jimmy want milk! Jimmy rage! AAARRRGHHH!" Bad ending.

[Lorn]

^ To be honest, I'd actually suggest Fighter as opposed to Barbarian. Whole point of the class is that they learn new stuff and use manouveres and such - there's a reason you're taught everything while still young, your brain is more receptive. I don't see why children in some (or many) villages wouldn't be taught to fight at around 14 in the world of D&D, it's dangerous enough and they'd be fairly developed by that point... or at least, developed enough. Sure, they'd never be able to spar with adults at that point, but it's better to build on knowledge already gained, skills already gained, than anything else.

Whereas, well, Barbarian is mostly focussed around brute strength.

Still, it depends exactly what age you're talking about. 6-10? 11-14? 15-18?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Goodman Games had an adventure where the characters are reverted to the child versions of themselves... It was called Escape from the Forest of Lanterns, and currently, Goodman Games is selling all of it's 3.5 games for 50% off. Something about a 4.0 version of the game coming out or something like that... Hard to say.

[Tengu_temp]

In D20 Modern, prepubescent kids receive these modifiers: -3 Str, -1 Dex, -3 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha. They also don't have any class, which translated to ordinary DND as level 1 commoners. Kids after puberty have normal stats - remember, in D20 Modern most characters with a job are level 3, with level 2 being high school/early college, and level 1 reserved for youngsters and total losers.

If you ask me, a kid character should have -1 to all stats, simple as that.

[weishan]

^ To be honest, I'd actually suggest Fighter as opposed to Barbarian. Whole point of the class is that they learn new stuff and use manouveres and such - there's a reason you're taught everything while still young, your brain is more receptive. I don't see why children in some (or many) villages wouldn't be taught to fight at around 14 in the world of D&D, it's dangerous enough and they'd be fairly developed by that point... or at least, developed enough. Sure, they'd never be able to spar with adults at that point, but it's better to build on knowledge already gained, skills already gained, than anything else.

Whereas, well, Barbarian is mostly focussed around brute strength.

Still, it depends exactly what age you're talking about. 6-10? 11-14? 15-18?

2 things. A barbarian village will probably teach their kids how to rage for the reasons you mentioned. Also 15+ is adult by D&D's definition.

[Lyndworm]

Any class should be allowed, I think. In RL cultures have have been training children for longer than recorded histroy. Historically, many cultures latched on to the first spark of talent and fanned it into true ability.

Three examples;

Japanese Sumo wrestlers.
As recently as the 19th century, any time children would get into a scuffle the winner would be looked over for potential Sumo wrestling skill. At ages as young as four they woud be sent away to schools to learn the techniques neccisary. Not all made it, of course, but you see my point.

Russian Olympians.
As recently as the 1980's Russia scouted for Olympic athletes as young as five. After giving the family large sums of money, they would send the child to be trained by the best athletes in the country. This may still be going on to this day, I'm not certain

Millions of tribal units.
When you've only got a few dozen people in you community, you need all the help you can get, and you need it as soon as possible. In this sort of lifestyle children are often put to simple tasks related to what they'll be doing to help the tribe later in life. As soon as they're large enough to be useful (6-7) they apprentice under others in the tribe.


In closing, children have the potential to be whatever it they're taught to be. On that note, trust me when I say never to underestimate the intelligence or adaptability of children.

Zack

P.S.
[spoiler]Another culture to do such things was good ol' Sparta. In addition to inventing government funded schooling and healthcare, the adults of Sparta were constantly looking for the slightest show of skill in children. From a very young age, adults knew whether a child would be a warrior, a battle leader, a craftsman, or a politician. They, too, latched on to the that spark of talent.

You can't argue with Sparta.[/spoiler}

[Mando Knight]

SW SAGA has rules for children, dividing it into two age groups: Child and Young Adult. For humans in SAGA, Child is 1-11 years old and Young Adult is 12-15. The penalties are as follows:

Young Adult: -1 to all
Child (cumulative with penalties with Young Adult): -3 to Str and Con, -1 to the rest
Child (after adding in penalties for Young Adult): -4 to Str and Con, -2 else

SAGA edition SW RPG is quite clear: there is no benefit to being a kid. At all. The physical penalties are worse than those for being 60-79, and they have mental penalties on top of that.

[SurlySeraph]

I'll personally find you, bite off your ankles, stuff various dice up your nose and shove bananas into your ears if you suggest that kids should have higher dexterity and/or charisma than adults. Yes, you, the guy/gal who wanted to suggest that before reading this warning. If you give the explanation that it's because kids are small and agile and/or cute, I'll also cut off your eyelids and force you to watch the first DND movie.

Look at Olympic gymnastics. Do you deny that younger (and consequently smaller) gymnasts tend to do better? Look at a history book on the rise of industrialism. Young children did a lot of jobs because they could fit into smaller spaces and (because of their smaller hands) manipulate small machine parts more easily. +2 Dex seems entirely reasonable to me.

[Tengu_temp]

Look at Olympic gymnastics. Do you deny that younger (and consequently smaller) gymnasts tend to do better? Look at a history book on the rise of industrialism.

Are those gymnasts below 15? Because, as someone already mentioned, that's the age at which you become an adult in DND's rules.

Young children did a lot of jobs because they could fit into smaller spaces and (because of their smaller hands) manipulate small machine parts more easily.

The first part is more important here, I think. Also, while they have smaller hands, kids are less coordinated than adults.

[snoopy13a]

Look at Olympic gymnastics. Do you deny that younger (and consequently smaller) gymnasts tend to do better? Look at a history book on the rise of industrialism. Young children did a lot of jobs because they could fit into smaller spaces and (because of their smaller hands) manipulate small machine parts more easily. +2 Dex seems entirely reasonable to me.

Top male gymnasts are in their 20s. For female gymnasts, they peak at younger ages because their further development affects their performance. Thus, the window for the best female gymasts is when they are close to developing adult female athlectism (remember that females develop faster then males) but before they have physically matured. Almost all women in their 20s do not have the body for gymnastics.

There have also been world class females athletes in swimming and tennis at the ages of 14-15 but most world class females in these events are in their twenties.

Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, reflexes, agility, and balance. There is no evidence that this is lost until past the mid-twenties. At best, children would have no Dex modifier, at worst interpretation there would be a negative one.

[Asheram]

A party member of mine had a rough time playing a kid. A L17 Wizard that used a wish to become younger. (character were 53 and he was worried about getting too old.)

Well... The wish got cranky and kicked him back to age 13.

It was quite funny to have him around, this kind of Lina Inverse character running around and yelling at people because they treat him like a child.
"... Rugrat?! Argh! You be glad I don't fireball your ass out of here!"

[Shadow_Elf]

^ That is a great character idea. It would be even funnier if one of his characters quirks was an ale addiction, and he decided one night he would (Insert Devastating Spell Here) the next establishment to refuse him a glass of ale.

On the topic of the discussion, in some run-down fantasy neighbourhoods children are also pick pockets and street urchins. While a full-on +2 Cha and +2 Dex may not be appropriate, +2 Bluff, +2 Sleight of Hand, +2 Gather Information and +2 Thievery may be appropriate (sorry if any of those skills aren't called that. I play 4e) Also, an ability to replace Diplomacy checks with BLuff checks at-will would not necessarily be out of place.

[thtoneguy]

as to the name, good idea on adolescent instead. whenever i hear underage my mind jumps to underage drinking and the local middle school that recently had an outbreak of syphylis......sad stuff

[Prometheus]

I think it would also be important not to allocate all the skill points a player ordinarily gets at first level, which represent skills picked up as a result of growing up. I guess they would pick them up as they leveled.

Were I a DM for this type of character, I'd give a blanket penalty to all stats but let the player allocate some of the stat points unevenly as they start to age. If they ever did play long enough to grow all the way up (unlikely) than they would have the benefit of training since their youth and literally being molded for the type of person they've become. Granted this probably isn't the way it works out in real life, but it would kind of represent a heroic legend that the Spartans sought in raising children soldiers or Tarzan supposedly went through in being raised by apes.

[thtoneguy]

well one of the examples i was thinking of when i started was that of the squire. they were trained through the course of their lives. and at about oh say 15 or 16 they were trained in combat giving a rough estimate of the age range. i never actually thought about other cultures and the ages at which they taught their children how to fight.