[3.5] Knowledge Checks

[Gorbash]

This has always been bugging me. Should I let players roll knowledge checks whenever they say they want, or should I tell them to do so if I think that their characters maybe knows something about this? My concern is, for example, if in an Adventure Path says that a knowledge check could reveal something for players about something they encountered, should I say to players to roll on that particular knowledge or should I allow them to roll only if they ask if they know something about it.

For example, they encounter a statue of a long forgotten deity and a knowledge (religion) check could reveal a piece of information about it. Obviously, a character with +20 religion will know about it whether he decides to roll or no, but I can distribute that information to him only if he says he'll roll, but if I ask him to roll that seems like railroading.

Opinions?

[Krrth]

Personally, I'd do a mix of both. If the character has a "focus", like say arcane for a mage or religion for a cleric, then they might very well pick something out. Maybe a spot check to notice that there is a potential clue present?

[tyckspoon]

I would ask them to make the roll, especially in an adventure path or other pre-written module. Useful or vital information is sometimes attached to those Knowledge call-outs, and you don't want your players wandering around aimlessly because they "should have known to pay attention to that old statue" or what-have-you. At the least I would say something like "the statue catches Character X's eye; it reminds him of something he learned in his studies of (Knowledge)" and then let the player decide if he wants to pursue the lead from there. Which he probably does, since making a quick Knowledge or Bardic Lore check takes effectively no time.

[Matthew]

Unless they ask specifically, I would just assume they have "taken 10". I would allow an actual roll to discover if they might know anything beyond what taking 10 might achieve, representing them "wracking their memories" for more information.

[Krrth]

Unless they ask specifically, I would just assume they have "taken 10". I would allow an actual roll to discover if they might know anything beyond what taking 10 might achieve, representing them "wracking their memories" for more information.

I like this one better than mine. Gives them a chance, to figure something is up, but unless they actually *try*, they don't usually get the good information.

[Hal]

You could always ask for rolls if the players get stuck.

[Gorbash]

I like this one better than mine. Gives them a chance, to figure something is up, but unless they actually *try*, they don't usually get the good information.

Indeed, I'm gonna go with that one! But what happens if taking 10 isn't enough? Let's say they need 25 and they have +12 or something like that? Should I then just mention that they're familiar with it?

[mabriss lethe]

Indeed, I'm gonna go with that one! But what happens if taking 10 isn't enough? Let's say they need 25 and they have +12 or something like that? Should I then just mention that they're familiar with it?

The taking 10 route should at least provide them with the hint that they might want to take a closer look at things. at least the ones with the highest relevant skills. They'll still have to make a check to get the juicy stuff

[Krrth]

Indeed, I'm gonna go with that one! But what happens if taking 10 isn't enough? Let's say they need 25 and they have +12 or something like that? Should I then just mention that they're familiar with it?

I wouldn't mention anything. If they want to ask,fine. The very act of you asking what the base for any given check should clue them in.

[Gorbash]

Well, I wouldn't really be making the check, since I'd just take 10, and I already have their skills written on a sort of a mini-sheet, for all those checks that they shouldn't know the result.

[Krrth]

Well, I wouldn't really be making the check, since I'd just take 10, and I already have their skills written on a sort of a mini-sheet, for all those checks that they shouldn't know the result.

Hmmm...perhaps if they are within 5 after taking 10, asking for a roll? Perhaps instead of asking for a roll, just mention that the (item,location,person) looks interesting.

[Matthew]

Telling them a bit of info should clue them in. If there is no information at that DC, you could always say something like "You vaguely recall something similar to this."

[CASTLEMIKE]

Unless they ask specifically, I would just assume they have "taken 10". I would allow an actual roll to discover if they might know anything beyond what taking 10 might achieve, representing them "wracking their memories" for more information.

This works pretty good.

[TheElfLord]

Unless they ask specifically, I would just assume they have "taken 10". I would allow an actual roll to discover if they might know anything beyond what taking 10 might achieve, representing them "wracking their memories" for more information.

I was going to suggest using both. After all it does no harm if the characters are asking for checks if there is nothing for them to find as long as it doesn't turn into rolling every knowledge the character has for every foot of the dungeon to try to find everything out. On the other hand, a helpful suggestion from the DM isn't bad, especially if the game has come to a halt otherwise. If the characters are stuck in a room because they don't recognize the religious idol as an idol and think its a decorative statute, a simple request for a roll could get the game moving.

That being said, I also like Matthew's suggestion. This cuts down on the number of DM hints given, produces a better result than half of rolled checks, and has a strong basis in the rules.

One other thing I would note is that I don't believe railroading is a dirty word or something to be totally avoided. While railroading is not something to be overdone, I wouldn't worry a lot that a small actions "smacks of railroading" Most players will prefer a little guidance from time to time over hours of frustration because they missed a minor detail.

[Chronos]

If any player (including the DM) thinks that a knowledge check might be useful in a particular circumstance, that player should say something. If you, as the DM, routinely know that there's a knowledge hook present on the scene, but you don't tell the players, then you're going to do a very good job of training them to ask about things. The result of this: "Do I know anything about this door? Do I know anything about the doorknob on it? Do I know anything about the keyhole? Do I know anything about the doorframe? Do I know anything about the wood the door is made out of? Do I know anything about the hinges?".

[jcsw]

Another way is to secretly roll for all of them... Though that can get tedious.

[only1doug]

I force onto them the lowest amount of information they would know.

Make notes of your players various Knowledge skill levels: whenever they passively observe something relevant then assume they have "taken a 1" (yes 1, not 10) and you can give them the information that they would receive at their minimum skill level. Once they know the basics then if they wish to know more then they can choose to make a roll to find out more.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want experienced characters to take advantage of what they've learned when appropriate, even when the players aren't on the ball, then making the checks for them is perfectly fine. But I've got a problem with "taking 10" on Knowledge checks for the players. The rules specify

Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

If the players want to always "take 10" when permitted, there's no problem, and you can establish that as SOP ahead of time. But if they want to roll, then you'll need to do that for them whenever a Knowledge check would be appropriate.

"Taking 10" and then letting them roll if 10 wasn't an adequate number is just bogus.

[Matthew]

"Taking 10" and then letting them roll if 10 wasn't an adequate number is just bogus.

Well, it's certainly outside the strict bounds of the rules, but nobody is saying it's within them. After all, if I followed the rules exactly as written, the game would be ****. I do the same with listen and spot.

[Gorbash]

Hmm... I could then describe in great detail the object/whatever that they should roll knowledge about and if that doesn't give them a clue, then it's their fault...

[Epinephrine]

If they'd make it taking a 1 I'd just hand them the info, though I agree with Curmudgeon that getting to take 10 AND then getting to roll is a bit much.

If anyone has training in a skill, I think they should be made somewhat aware of the possibility of using it, at least by the description (mentioning that X thinks the statue may be religious in nature, or that it seems interesting, or spending a bit more time describing it) but I'd tend to leave the decision to "wrack one's brain" up to the player.