Was I wrong to get upset about this?

[ken-do-nim]

The following game session occurred about 4 years ago, and while I was plenty angry about it back then, I look back now and wonder if I had a legitimate beef with the DM or not. So, I throw it open to the court of public opinion to inform me.

We were playing one of the Eberron modules. We were in Sharn, and had just entered a tavern to meet someone who apparently was in danger. We sat down at the table to meet her and then ... wham bam! A hit squad breaks into the bar gunning for her and the party and to make a long story short, a TPK ensues except for the wizard who managed to slip out the back door and run away. This upset me for the following reasons:

1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.

Now in case you are curious, I didn't storm out of there or make any theatrics, I merely brought out another character I'd played up to 2nd already for the new party.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe if the Wizard wasn't running away, you'd have won.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I'd say you have a bit of a legitimate beef. Not a serious, never talk to him again sort of beef, but it is the sort of thing you can bring up years later and feel a bit of "peevishness" about, possibly to pick on the DM in question.

On a scale of 1-10 I'd say this rates about a 3 on the WTHWTDMT (What The Heck Was The DM Thinking, a completely official fictitious scale).
I'd say this is something to deal with and maybe grumble to the DM about how fun that was... (using sarcasm to taste).

A 10 on this scale of course neccessitates leaving the game/room/location entirely, possibly knocking down furniture and not taking that kind of "s%#! and not talking to said person or people for the remainder of their lives. (and possibly informing law enforcement depending on situation)

a 1 being the DM doing something annoying but not harmful to the game.

a 5-8 depending on the availability of games and your personal ability to deal with it being the point at which you should just quit the game.

[TheElfLord]

The following game session occurred about 4 years ago, and while I was plenty angry about it back then, I look back now and wonder if I had a legitimate beef with the DM or not. So, I throw it open to the court of public opinion to inform me.

If the DM was deliberatly trying to kill you, than yes I think your anger was justified. If he was trying to emphasis the danger of his new story with a tough encounter that got out of hand, then not so much.

1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

You did choose to go into the tavern to meet someone in danger. It's not out of the realm of possibility that you would be attacked during the meeting, in fact it's a common occurrence in the genre. I don't think that couldn't as railroading unless you consider any fight not initiated by the PCs to be railroading.

2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

Technically the CR didn't change. Three PC class levels adds 3 to the CR no matter what combination they are. Though you are correct in saying the alteration upped the difficulty of the encounter. A DM is not bound by the stats in a module. (unless the group agreed beforehand he would be) If he was trying to make it more dangerous and not deliberately induce a TPK I don't see a problem with this.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

This is more a style issue. If he moved you into an area where the module expected you to be a higher level then it might be a problem. Although without knowing the full make up of the strike team its hard to tell how outmatched you were.

[QUOTE]4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.[QUOTE]

This does seem like a problematic inconsistency. Of course if someone complied about the guards not arriving the DM could have altered things in the future so they would arrive. It's hard to use someone's future DMing against them as it may be a correction to the previous problem. As to the guards taking a long time to show up, it depends how many rounds "many rounds" is. A round is only 6 seconds. Depending on the layout of the city I don't think it would be unreasonable for the guards to take a long time to respond. Unless a patrol was right outside the tavern I think 2 minutes (20 rounds) would be a very quick response time. If someone has to run to the guard headquarters or the city gates to find someone it could easily take 8-10 minutes (80-100 rounds) for guards to arrive.

If it takes 20 rounds for a near TPK to occur I would suggest that a TPK was not the intention and it was just a tough encounter that got a little out of hand.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had on the post.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit: Why didn't the Wizard PC cast spells every round like Charm Person, Color Spray or Grease from memory or scrolls?

I'd be upset with the Wizard player because he should have been able to dominate in the encounter, very curious he ran away.

A party of level 2 PCs should have been able to handle a single Level 3 F-2, Barbarian -1 Warforged.

Which module? Shadows of the Last War? The encounter might have specified No Guards for X amount of time (Bribes or bad part of town.......)

Perhaps the town guard always showed because of this encounter in later games to prevent TPKs.

[Iku Rex]

I know the module and the encounter you're talking about. You were wrong to be upset.

1. You chose to meet a woman in a tavern. You were ambushed. This is not railroading.

2. NPCs are generally weak for their CR. A level barbarian instead of fighter is not a big deal.

3. No, you were supposed to be level 2.

4. One round = 6 seconds. I doubt if the battle lasted a whole minute. It is completely unreasonable to expect guards to arrive that quickly.

[Grynning]

Are you wrong to get upset? No...TPK's are usually pretty upsetting, unless they're intentional (on the part of the players) and/or really funny. It's as close as you come to "losing" at a non-competitive game like D&D.

Are you wrong to be upset with the DM? Maybe. Remember, he was probably pretty upset too. Very few DM's actually feel good about wiping the party, because they're attached to the story and characters just as much as the players, if not more so. He just made a mistake; I doubt he was trying to kill you all.

Now, if he was a mean about it and gave YOU crap for it, then he's just a jerk. That's different.

[Knaight]

1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.

Now in case you are curious, I didn't storm out of there or make any theatrics, I merely brought out another character I'd played up to 2nd already for the new party.

1. Sometimes your just unlucky.
2. That doesn't change the CR, despite being more optimized.
3. Yes, but so would the encounter have with some GMs.
4. This is off, unless the guards were bribed. Still in Sharn there would probably be enough honest guards to make this difficult, and killing them would turn the dishonest guards against the bribers, but it would probably take the guards a while to get there.

[ken-do-nim]

I know the module and the encounter you're talking about. You were wrong to be upset.

1. You chose to meet a woman in a tavern. You were ambushed. This is not railroading.

2. NPCs are generally weak for their CR. A level barbarian instead of fighter is not a big deal.

3. No, you were supposed to be level 2.

4. One round = 6 seconds. I doubt if the battle lasted a whole minute. It is completely unreasonable to expect guards to arrive that quickly.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, and that's why I started to doubt as to whether I should have been upset or not. The one thing I should add is that in real life, the DM had broken up with a girlfriend the night before and so started the game session in a pissy mood and when the bodies started falling, seemed to be having a good time. At least as I recall.

As to the wizard, she was out of bullets, so to speak, so I believe at that point she chose to escort the woman we were sent to meet out of there instead.

Ah, I'm remembering now the other part of it - and as you are familiar with the module you can tell me if it's in there. So these assassins showed up to kill the woman, not the party - presumably. Yet once the wizard and her slipped out the back door, the assassins did not give chase at all but rather stayed to kill the party. It is as if they came to kill the party instead of this woman. I thought at the time that this was highly unlikely, and that the DM was just enjoying killing pc's to make himself feel better after his breakup.

[FoE]

After reading your last post ... yeah, the DM dropped a rock on you. Feel free to be pissed.

[CASTLEMIKE]

As to the wizard, she was out of bullets, so to speak, so I believe at that point she chose to escort the woman we were sent to meet out of there instead.

If I had to do any finger pointing it would be at the Wizard who survived.

A good Wizard PC should have dominated this encounter. If you want to be upset be upset at the right person.

Most PC Wizards have Spell scrolls precisely for the reason that they might run out of bullets at 12.5 GP he should have had a half dozen to a dozen IMO.

Scribe Scroll is something most Wizards get at first level unless they trade it out for something else.

A level 3 Warforged Fighter - 2, Barbarian - 1 has a +0 Will Charm Person, Color Spray, Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement since they are immune to Sleep. Basically any spell each round not targeting the Fortitude save which should still drop the NPC if continued for a few rounds targeting Fortitude saves.

[Worira]

The biggest problem, I think, is that the woman in question had a magic item that let her teleport out of the situation if it got rough. The DM should have had her use it rather than accepting an escort. Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day. It wasn't a particularly hard encounter, though, so I'm not sure why you had so much trouble.

[monty]

Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day.

Well, if it lasted "many rounds" and they were only level 2, it's entirely possible the wizard just ran out of spells. A level 2 non-specialized wizard with 18 Int only has 7 spells per day, 4 of which are cantrips. And if he cast any "utility" spells earlier in the day, he'd have even fewer.

[ken-do-nim]

Well, if it lasted "many rounds" and they were only level 2, it's entirely possible the wizard just ran out of spells. A level 2 non-specialized wizard with 18 Int only has 7 spells per day, 4 of which are cantrips. And if he cast any "utility" spells earlier in the day, he'd have even fewer.

Yup, non-specialized. The player of the wizard is hoping that down the line the character will be able to take the arch-mage prestige class, and so does not want to limit the character's schools.

The biggest problem, I think, is that the woman in question had a magic item that let her teleport out of the situation if it got rough. The DM should have had her use it rather than accepting an escort. Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day. It wasn't a particularly hard encounter, though, so I'm not sure why you had so much trouble.

The barbarian rage combat bonuses really took their toll. For what it's worth, we did actually manage to damage him enough so that the moment the rage ended, he died, but that was after the fight ended.

Oh, and not only did the enemy not go after the woman they were sent to get, but they stuck around to do coup-de-grace on the unconscious characters.

[CASTLEMIKE]

There is a reason Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class special.

[Worira]

Yeah, the DM definitely shouldn't have changed the warforged's levels.

[Helgraf]

There is a reason Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class special.

Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.

I have Shadows of the Last War the adventure that the DM was running and dug it out because of this thread.

It starts out in a tavern at L2 Not L1 on the first page when the party should have been up to full strength.

At the minimum the Wizard should have been able to cast 3 first level spells from memory.

DMG Character Wealth by level is 900 GP for a second level PC. A first level scroll only costs 12.5 GP and only takes a day to craft. The Wizard should have had spell scrolls. PCs are supposed to have 25% temporary disposable magic.

Point the blame where it belongs the Wizard PC. A poorly played Wizard resulted in the TPK.

Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

[FoE]

The Wizard might have been useless in that encounter, but it does seem like the DM was just out to stomp the PCs flat. If the woman they were out to kill had left, shouldn't the assassins have split as well? I think ken-do-nim has a valid point about the town guard intervening as well.

[CASTLEMIKE]

The Wizard might have been useless in that encounter, but it does seem like the DM was just out to stomp the PCs flat. If the woman they were out to kill had left, shouldn't the assassins have split as well? I think ken-do-nim has a valid point about the town guard intervening as well.

It was a canned adventure Dragon House Intrigues. A L2 Party at 100% against a single level 3 Warforged Fighter and 4 Kobolds with 6 hit points. A round only takes 6 seconds. Sharn is huge and the police force isn't that large.

[Grynning]

It's been noted multiple times that guards showing up fast enough to intervene is highly unlikely...rounds are short, most combats last less than a minute of "real" time.

The thing about the assassins going after the PCs instead of their intended target may be a valid point, but again, it's hard to say without having actually played in the encounter. The opponents may have only taken a few more shots at the party after the target fled, which is believable since assassins wouldn't want to turn their backs on people who are now trying to kill them, and possibly provoke AoO's by running past them to boot. Also, from the sound of it, the target leaving didn't happen until a bit later in the combat, when all the combatants were fully committed. Hell, they may not have even noticed her leave; a brawl with a bunch of adventurers can be pretty distracting.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It's been noted multiple times that guards showing up fast enough to intervene is highly unlikely...rounds are short, most combats last less than a minute of "real" time.

The thing about the assassins going after the PCs instead of their intended target may be a valid point, but again, it's hard to say without having actually played in the encounter. The opponents may have only taken a few more shots at the party after the target fled, which is believable since assassins wouldn't want to turn their backs on people who are now trying to kill them, and possibly provoke AoO's by running past them to boot. Also, from the sound of it, the target leaving didn't happen until a bit later in the combat, when all the combatants were fully committed. Hell, they may not have even noticed her leave; a brawl with a bunch of adventurers can be pretty distracting.

Yeah, the DM definitely shouldn't have changed the warforged's levels.

I disagree the DM gave the party a break. The Level 3 Fighter was supposed to snipe at the adventurers inside the the tavern with missile fire (crossbow) from the doorway and he was supposed to fight to his death. Swapping out a level of F for Barbarian shouldn't have ended in a TPK against a balanced party.

Crummy Generalist Wizard - 2 PC. Sleep would have handled the four Kobolds. Wizards don't rock if you don't understand how the spellcasting mechanics work in game and you do not play the PC intelligently.

He was supposed to be a Warforged Zealot and Martyr shouting out clues to the adventurers. The four 6 HP Kobolds were supposed to fight to the death.

The L2 Party at 100% just starting the adventure was supposed to do a TPK on the BBEGs.

[Talic]

Points 1-3: If the DM let you know of the danger, and the xp, then there's no issue.

While it's possible to explain away the dead level issue, and if that is a known habit of your GM, then ok, as well. However, it may be a good idea to inform him that you can't get any build that involves Fighter 4 without fighter 3.

Point 4, the inconsistency in the times of the fight, that's a legitimate gripe.

However, it's not outside the bounds of plausibility. Another emergency going on at the same time, or bribed officials, it can all explain delays.

[Tallis]

Mike I have to ask: Have you had a bad experience with a wizard at some point? You seem very quick to blame everything on her.

Maybe the wizard could have done more, maybe not. We really don't know. It doesn't seem to me like the DM planned a TPK, but once things started in that direction he may have pushed it the rest of the way. It definitely seems like he didn't have to kill everybody. Once the party was down going after the woman would have been reasonable. The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.

I'd say you have a right to be a little mad.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Mike I have to ask: Have you had a bad experience with a wizard at some point? You seem very quick to blame everything on her.

Maybe the wizard could have done more, maybe not. We really don't know. It doesn't seem to me like the DM planned a TPK, but once things started in that direction he may have pushed it the rest of the way. It definitely seems like he didn't have to kill everybody. Once the party was down going after the woman would have been reasonable. The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.

I'd say you have a right to be a little mad.

Not really the Sorcerer and the Wizard are two of my favorite classes at low levels when they are at the weakest.

Yes she should have been a dominating factor in the encounter using suggested wealth by level with 3 memorized first level spells.

Intelligent Core spell selection for a Generalist Wizard -2. Sleep would have taken care of the 4 Kobolds unfortuneately Warforged are immune to Sleep in ECS being an unusual type of living construct but that is one thing you factor into spell selection in ECS at low levels.

A scroll of Charm Person would normally have taken care of the Warforged. Grease or Color Spray. Lots of Good spells.

The party was going to meet a client for an adventure warned ahead of time they were in Terrible danger from a previous employer on a written scroll.

Why do you feel compelled to defend the Wizard PC?

I have the adventure if anyone was at fault and needs to be blamed it was the Wizard PC since the party was at 100% the opening scene after the previous adventure The Forgotten Forge.

It was supposed to be a BBEG TPK so the PCs couldn't ask the BBEG questions.

[FoE]

It just doesn't seem like a TPK was necessary here. There were a number of ways where the DM could have pulled the PCs out of this apparent meatgrinder. The assassins could have pulled out of the fight after a few casualties, or the PCs could have gotten help. Yeah, Sharn's a big city, but it's also an IMAGINARY city; if the DM wants to have a few city guards nearby, then a few city guards are nearby. Also, the other bar patrons/staff could have intervened to help the PCs. They didn't start the fight, after all.

Point is, DM dropped a rock on them. I don't believe in coddling PCs, but unless the PCs are aware this is a meatgrinder, I try to avoid TPKs. It just breeds anger and resentment, as the OP clearly demonstrates.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It just doesn't seem like a TPK was necessary here. There were a number of ways where the DM could have pulled the PCs out of this apparent meatgrinder. The assassins could have pulled out of the fight after a few casualties, or the PCs could have gotten help. Yeah, Sharn's a big city, but it's also an IMAGINARY city; if the DM wants to have a few city guards nearby, then a few city guards are nearby. Also, the other bar patrons/staff could have intervened to help the PCs. They didn't start the fight, after all.

Point is, DM dropped a rock on them. I don't believe in coddling PCs, but unless the PCs are aware this is a meatgrinder, I try to avoid TPKs. It just breeds anger and resentment, as the OP clearly demonstrates.

Maybe he was a new DM/GM the adventure reads the BBEGs are there to Kill the PCs they are Supposed to be Killed by the PCs. Any party with a half way capable Sorcerer or Wizard should have ruled the encounter.

The PCs get a Written Warning they are in Terrible Danger. Maybe the Poor Wizard PC actually Handicapped the Party by taking up space while being a non-productive drag on the party.

What Meatgrinder? L2 Party with a Wizard -2 at 100% against a CR3 Fighter with 4 Kobolds with 6 HP. The only reason he was a Warforged was so he could shout clues to the adventurers without being Slept and Killed leaving them Clueless.

[Yahzi]

The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.

If I were an assassin, and I knocked out an adventurer, I'd want to make sure he didn't wake up and come looking for revenge.

Assassins are evil. They kill people for fun. Including PCs.

TPKs are a necessary part of the game. Without the possibility, the game isn't as much fun. And without the occasional TPK, there is no possibility. If you're running one TPK every four years, your DM isn't trying hard enough.

[Edea]

This would be a let down @ OP, but nothing there's worth harboring for a long period of time. Pretty much, this is crap of the 'sit back and breathe for a minute' variety.

[FoE]

Maybe he was a new DM/GM the adventure reads the BBEGs are there to Kill the PCs they are Supposed to be Killed by the PCs.

The PCs get a Written Warning they are in Terrible Danger. Maybe the Poor Wizard PC actually Handicapped the Party by taking up space but being non-productive.

I don't know what level of experience this GM was at. ken-do-nim can fill us in on that regard. As for a written warning, ken-do-nim hasn't mentioned anything about that; maybe this "inexperienced GM" skipped that part of the module.

Here's what I do know from ken-do-nim's comments:

1) The GM was in a foul mood. It lightened when he started killing off PCs.
2) The GM ran the encounter when one PC was at her weakest (the wizard was apparently out of spells), and ken-do-nim did feel like they were "railroaded" into the encounter.
3) The assassins ignored their primary objective when their target left the bar and focused on killing the PCs.
4) The PCs were in a public setting where it wouldn't have been unfeasible for them to get outside help.

All this points to the DM dropping a rock on the PCs, in my opinion.