Trying to make a Vigilante-ish build...that's not a Vigilante.

[overduegalaxy]

I'm building a 20th level character, and I've always wanted to try out the Vigilante. However, I finally looked at it closely, and I'm very underwhelemed.

I want something that can leap from rooftop to rooftop, who can disappear into the shadows only to reappear right behind their enemy, and is still charismatic and can be a party "face". Not a bard with half their spells cut out.

Taking advantage of the Ninja or Ninja Spy (OA) would be beneficial; the Ninja allows me to do it's nifty ninja magic, while Ninja Spy gives me a +10 (and later, a +20) to a bunch of very useful atheletic skills, perfect for the blossoming crimefighter. It's very likely there's other classes and PrCs that will serve me better, but these are two that just happened to spring to mind.

Justicar or Bloodhound would give me much better tracking abilities than the Vigilante, although neither of them give me any real good hard-hitting powers, and I doubt either of those would work, requirement-wise, with what I'm working towards.

I would also like to have at least a little spellcasting. I thought Beguiler would fit the flavor the best, although they are a little delicate, and having a wizard's BAB, even for a few levels, would drag down my melee powers. But a Beguiler would give me trapfinding. Bard or Urban Druid would also probably work.

Swashbuckler would be my choice for a starting combat class. Relying on Dex instead of Str would stack well with any spellcasting class I go into.

This is all idle speculation of what I've thought about so far, I've done none of the actual number-crunching to see which classes would work together, or even be feasible. Just sort of examples of what I'm aiming for, to get everyone moving in the right direction.

[Stupendous_Man]

why not just use a bard or a warlock?

[Gralamin]

I'm building a 20th level character, and I've always wanted to try out the Vigilante. However, I finally looked at it closely, and I'm very underwhelemed.

I want something that can leap from rooftop to rooftop, who can disappear into the shadows only to reappear right behind their enemy, and is still charismatic and can be a party "face". Not a bard with half their spells cut out.

How about a swordsage who has permission to use Charisma for its powers/AC bonus instead of wisdom (ie ask your DM)? Taking Shadow Hand powers would let you disappear into the shadows, Tiger Claw would let you do some pretty big jumps, etc.

[Flickerdart]

The Urban Soul prestige class from Races of Destiny should mesh well with your needs.

[Ryuuk]

I want something that can leap from rooftop to rooftop, who can disappear into the shadows only to reappear right behind their enemy, and is still charismatic and can be a party "face". Not a bard with half their spells cut out.

Judging by this alone, I would have to recommend a Swordsage from Tome of Battle. Leaping from rooftop to rooftop while taking out foes before they even know you're there practically screams Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw.

A possible alternative would be a Rogue with UMD or maybe a Wilder with careful power selection, as they have a medium Bab decent skill points and list and Cha as a primary stat (if you don't mind Psionics).

[Xyk]

Go with straight CAd ninja. You can give yourself decent charisma, wear a cloak of charisma if you want and you're set. If you really want the tracking abilities, go with just a track feat and decent survival skill. Ninja's are not great at that, however. A few levels in ranger will get you survival and easy access to bloodhound if you wanna hunt down criminals or whatever.

[Aneantir]

Honestly, take up Swordsage. I know they're not Charisma based, but they are functionally what you want. They lack the spellcasting, but have maneuvers which could give you a similar feel.

You might want to take up the unarmed variant and work your way into the Shadow Sun Ninja if you'd like to be a "Protector of Balance" kinda guy.

[overduegalaxy]

Any other options? I know my DM isn't a fan of Tome of Battle, and if I can't cajole him into letting me use it, I'll need another build.

[Prometheus]

Bloodhounds make good villains, but not so good characters.

I think what you are really looking for is a super-hero. I say go with Psychic Warrior, or if you really want to focus on righteousness a Paladin (of freedom).

[Ryuuk]

If its a mid level game, consider the Warlock. Leaps and Bounds -> Spiderclimb -> Fell Flight for movement, thinvisible invocation for the sneaky bits. Just flavor to taste, he doesn't have to be a brooding, infernal pact antihero.

[Thurbane]

You may want to throw Avenging Executioner (CS) into the mix. Not sure how much it helps mechanically, but seems to be a good fit thematically.

[John Campbell]

You might want to check out the Urban Ranger variant. Mix it to taste with Rogue for some Sneak Attack and to fill out the rest of the class skills you'll want - mostly the social stuff; Ranger gets the stealth stuff anyway.

[overduegalaxy]

I stumbled across Battle Dancer in the Dragon Magazine Compendium, taking a good number of levels from that, interjected with levels in Beguiler or Bard here and there, might be an effective build.

Any other suggestions?

[Siegel]

Why are ToB Classes THE awnser to nearly everything on this board ?

[Stupendous_Man]

Why are ToB Classes THE awnser to nearly everything on this board ?

maybe tob is a good book.

[Ralfarius]

Why are ToB Classes THE awnser to nearly everything on this board ?

I believe you can find the answer to your question within the D&D 3.5 supplement, Tome of Battle.

[Thurbane]

Why are ToB Classes THE awnser to nearly everything on this board ?

Without starting yet another round of ToB bashing/defending, I tend to agree with this. A lot of groups don't use ToB, so alternate ideas are often a good idea in these threads.

[MeklorIlavator]

Without starting yet another round of ToB bashing/defending, I tend to agree with this. A lot of groups don't use ToB, so alternate ideas are often a good idea in these threads.

If the best choice seems to be X, and no reason has been put forth as to why X would be inappropriate, why not say X? Also, two of the suggestions for ToB were two minutes apart, so they likely didn't know about each other, and the other gave additional options to use with the swordsage. And its not like other options weren't mentioned. In fact, six non-ToB options were mentioned before he even said no ToB, so what's the problem?

[Thurbane]

If the best choice seems to be X, and no reason has been put forth as to why X would be inappropriate, why not say X? Also, two of the suggestions for ToB were two minutes apart, so they likely didn't know about each other, and the other gave additional options to use with the swordsage. And its not like other options weren't mentioned. In fact, six non-ToB options were mentioned before he even said no ToB, so what's the problem?

No problem, just a thought.

[ocato]

I had an idea for a sort of batman character that was a Fighter/Barbarian (a dip for speed and rage)/Avenging Executioner. Effectively the character used fear tactics like Kiai Shout to get plenty of sudden strikes and beat people's asses with a spiked chain (a bunch of shaken/feared people losing trips and provoking AoOs by trying to run away? Brilliant!). Before you scream at me for improperly statting batman or claiming a nonwizard to be batmanish, what I meant was a character who struck fear into his foes and excelled at fighting multiple enemies. I think I saw something similar around here once that used Ghost Faced Killer, but I don't have Complete Adventurer on hand so I can't comment. As far as leaping and such, I think there's a feat that let's you get less of a cross-class penalty for skills, possibly ...able learner? Look into some skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel (if you can get your DM to approve of doing it with a chain, I think there's a use rope one that lets you indiana-jones with a whip, I might be just making that up though).

[AstralFire]

Hey overdue. Urban Ranger is probably your best bet if Swordsages aren't allowed.