They're bugs, smart bugs... (3.5)

[Kanlyven]

Has there been any clarification as to what happens when previously non-intelligent creatures, like vermin, gain an intelligence score? More particularly, do these no-longer-sentience-impaired bugs get the feats and skills that are their birthright?

An inquiring soon-to-be summoner wants to know, as does his curious DM.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Has there been any clarification as to what happens when previously non-intelligent creatures, like vermin, gain an intelligence score? More particularly, do these no-longer-sentience-impaired bugs get the feats and skills that are their birthright?

An inquiring soon-to-be summoner wants to know, as does his curious DM.

By RAW, they should, but there is no method for determining which feats and skills they get. My DM ruled that most of the feats were Toughness, but I got to pick a couple. I went with giving every centipede Imp. Grapple.

Also, check out the Malconvoker PrC in Complete Scoundrel. It is excellent.

[AKA_Bait]

This may also depend upon how they got their Int score. I'm not sure if by RAW they get anything extra if they were, say, made smart by virtue of an Awaken Spell as it doesn't indicate that they gain anything beyond the Int, Cha and HD.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This may also depend upon how they got their Int score. I'm not sure if by RAW they get anything extra if they were, say, made smart by virtue of an Awaken Spell as it doesn't indicate that they gain anything beyond the Int, Cha and HD.

He's talking about the various Fiendish monsters summonable, of which the Vermin all have 3 or more Int from birth, so presumably have skills and feats.

[AKA_Bait]

He's talking about the various Fiendish monsters summonable, of which the Vermin all have 3 or more Int from birth, so presumably have skills and feats.

Oh. Ok. Humm... yeah I'd agree with you above in that case.

For some reason I thought his summoner was going to be a bug that got an int score... spending too much time thinking about my own NPC BBEG's I think.

[TheThan]

I think they would start gaining levels (or maybe hit dice if they’re just monsters) and go from there.
At least that’s what I would start doing.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd just give them the same number of feats as a normal creature with its level would (that seems like the fairest way of handling it).

[Tequila Sunrise]

He's talking about the various Fiendish monsters summonable, of which the Vermin all have 3 or more Int from birth, so presumably have skills and feats.

Actually, such vermin would not have skills and feats because such additions could be a significant increase in their power, and therefore the Summon X's power. And if summoned vermin were meant to get skills and feats, it would have been mentioned in the spell description. Or they would have been stated with them in the first place.

TS

[MeklorIlavator]

Actually, such vermin would not have skills and feats because such additions could be a significant increase in their power, and therefore the Summon X's power. And if summoned vermin were meant to get skills and feats, it would have been mentioned in the spell description. Or they would have been stated with them in the first place.

Why do you assume that it would be stated in the spell description? All the spell description really says about the creature specifically is that it is chosen from a table off to the side. The table offers choices of Fiendish and Celestial creatures, but no stats for such creatures exist, only a template that mentions that applying this gives the creatures at least 3 Int, which is the requirement for access to feats and skills. No fiendish or celestial creatures are stated out(to my memory, at least), thus the discussion. Can you give any RAW reasons or examples that show that such creatures shouldn't get feats or skills?

[Chronos]

Fiendish vermin are statted out on d20srd, and do not gain any feats or skill points over their material equivalents. I don't know if that's official or just the webmaster's extrapolation, though. Logically, I would expect that they would, since the int -- is the only reason that they didn't have feats or skill ranks in the first place.

The SRD also says that if a vermin somehow manages to get an intelligence score, it gets 2+int skill points per level (which basically means a single point). And a magical beast [augmented vermin], which is what a fiendish vermin is, ought to get skills as a vermin.

Personally, I would give them feats and skill points, but chosen by the DM, and probably in sub-optimal places (like, Climb for all their skill points, and something passive like Toughness for feats).

[Tequila Sunrise]

Why do you assume that it would be stated in the spell description? All the spell description really says about the creature specifically is that it is chosen from a table off to the side.

Exactly; all the spell really says is "pick one of these, then look it up in the MM." If summoned vermin were meant to get skills and feats, the writers would have made at least some kind of passing mention like "the DM/the caster should assign unspecified stats" or "players should write out critters they might summon before the game session starts because some critters are incomplete." Or they would have come right out and said "some critters, such as celestial/fiendish vermin require tinkering before use."

The table offers choices of Fiendish and Celestial creatures, but no stats for such creatures exist, only a template that mentions that applying this gives the creatures at least 3 Int, which is the requirement for access to feats and skills. No fiendish or celestial creatures are stated out(to my memory, at least), thus the discussion. Can you give any RAW reasons or examples that show that such creatures shouldn't get feats or skills?

Right, these creatures are not stated out in full because you have to add a template to them. While adding a template is a nuisance, the process is spelled right out for you. Adding skills and feats, on the other hand, is even more of a nuisance and not at all spelled out; at most there are guidelines buried somewhere in the MM for assigning skill points and feats to monsters.

Are you telling me that in your games, summoned vermin get skills and feats? Or are you saying that it's never come up? Because what this all comes down to is ease of play and balance -- both of which are contradicted by giving vermin skills and feats.

TS

[Akimbo]

Exactly; all the spell really says is "pick one of these, then look it up in the MM." If summoned vermin were meant to get skills and feats, the writers would have made at least some kind of passing mention like "the DM/the caster should assign unspecified stats" or "players should write out critters they might summon before the game session starts because some critters are incomplete." Or they would have come right out and said "some critters, such as celestial/fiendish vermin require tinkering before use."

Right, these creatures are not stated out in full because you have to add a template to them. While adding a template is a nuisance, the process is spelled right out for you. Adding skills and feats, on the other hand, is even more of a nuisance and not at all spelled out; at most there are guidelines buried somewhere in the MM for assigning skill points and feats to monsters.

Are you telling me that in your games, summoned vermin get skills and feats? Or are you saying that it's never come up? Because what this all comes down to is ease of play and balance -- both of which are contradicted by giving vermin skills and feats.

The point is simply that Fiendish Vermin (the thing you are summoning) should have feats and skill points, because they have an Int score. Those are the rules.

Are you telling me that you don't grant feats and skill points to Fiendish creatures that aren't summons?