Comparing Battle Sorcerers and Duskblades.

[Tempest Fennac]

If you want to play as an Arcane magic-using warrior and you want to avoid multi-classing, which is the better choice out of the Duskblade and the Battle Sorcerer? Also, is the Battle Sorcerer is underpowered compared to the DB, how would you improve it so that it's about as powerful? Both the classes can be found on http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf .

[arguskos]

I'm giving the Duskblade the edge, merely for Arcane Channeling. That ability allows for some pretty crazy attacks sometimes, and it only gets crazier when you hit level 13 and get Arcane Channeling on full attacks.

Of course, if the party needs a real arcanist, go with Battle Sorcerer (you have a better spell selection in theory). If the party just needs someone to smack stuff till it dies, Duskblade=win.

-argus

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. I was just wondering due to people saying the Battle Sorcerer was even weaker then a normal Sorcerer due to it having even less spells.

[BobVosh]

Duskblade is a better arcane usine melee class. BS is basically still a sorcerer with a few fixes they should have had.

Alternatively you can try hexblade.

[Tempest Fennac]

What do you mean about the fixes which Sorcerers should have had? Hexblades look interresting, but I don't really like playing that sort of character to be honest (and they don't really have enough spell-casting for my liking).

[TheThan]

I would say most definitely it’s the Duskblade, the class has everything you need to be a melee caster.
High BAB, good saves, good hit dice, simple and martial weapon proficiency. His spells are a mix of direct damage, buff spells and some general battlefield control, meaning you have just about everything you need (though I admit, there are a few choice spells I wish were on his list).
On top of all that his arcane channeling allows for some really cool combos and some impressive damage.

While the battle sorcerer is more or less just a sorcerer with less spells that can cast in light armor. I’m not too impressed, really. I would just go for the duskblade.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks (I'm planning on trying both of the classes out at some point, but I was just curious about what eveyone else thought about the classes. I'd be using Longbow Proficiency for the Battle Sorcerer rather then a melee weapon, though).

[BobVosh]

What do you mean about the fixes which Sorcerers should have had? Hexblades look interresting, but I don't really like playing that sort of character to be honest (and they don't really have enough spell-casting for my liking).

Battle Sorcerer is what Sorcerer should have been in the first place.

Hexblades are nice, but Duskblade are the better choice as far as "casters" go, I just suggested Hex as I wasn't sure if you wanted "caster" more than "melee."

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd probably go more for caster to be honest (Duskblades look really fun to play as). Why don't you like normal Sorcerers that much?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Duskblade. Full Attack Empowered Vampiric Touch. Suck my 75d6 damage and I gain it as HP.

[Frosty]

Doesn't work that way. Temporary HP from the same source doesn't stack with itself. You'd get the highest application.

[Talic]

Well, they're fundamentally different. Completely.

Battle Sorceror, IMO, is an idea full of fail. Extra HP in exchange for spells do nothing without allowing the caster more access to armored casting, and close combat related abilities. Such as what the Duskblade has.

Thus, Battle Sorceror exacerbates the biggest weakness of sorcerors (limited spell selection) without offering anything worthwhile in exchange.

Now, regular sorceror? That's a different ball game. Now you're comparing a fullcaster vs a magically augmented fighter. Entirely different playstyle. If you prefer the up close and personal, go for the gish. If you prefer doing what you do at range, go for the sorceror. I'm usually a range person. My personal preference. But, a well made duskblade can rival a melee oriented cleric for a time. Granted, in the end, such a cleric can typically just out heal the gish, but they have comparable defensive and offensive capabilities, although they're different.

[Tempest Fennac]

How would you improve Battle Sorcerers so that they aren't as weak, Talic?

[Saph]

Battle Sorcerers compare okay to Duskblades if combined with some other classes and played to a high enough level. A fairly effective build I've always wanted to try is Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

However, in general a Duskblade does the same job more easily, with the added bonus that you don't have to wait to get to highish levels to do cool stuff. And if you're going to rule out multi-classing then obviously the Duskblade is way better.

- Saph

[Tempest Fennac]

What exactly do Spellswords do? That build could be interresting (sadly, it would lose 2 Caster Levels due to the Paladin dip).

[only1doug]

my current build is a duskblade5/wizard1/abjurant champion5(wizard spells)

duskblade 5 grants access to abjurant champion, wizard 1 means you now take your caster levels in abjurant champion as wizard levels giving you wizard 6 at L11.

there is a valid argument for doing this duskblade 4 wizard 2 and using precosious apprentice for the qualifier to abjurant champion.... i'll leave that choice to you.

pick a draconic subtype altenate race and the class feature dragonscale husk.
this gives you an armour bonus 7 with energy resistance 5 / cold, fire, electricity and acid that doesn't have a spellfailure chance. (not taking duskblade 5 loses the energy resistance) you can sleep in your dragonscale husk without penalty, if you lose it the husk will grow back in 8 hrs.

at L11 you have a wizard caster level of 11, spells / day as a 7th level wizard (3rd level spells), awesome shield bonus to AC (+9) from the standard shield spell and all your abjuration spells have double duration and most of them cast as a swift action. you also have duskblade caster level of 5 (2nd level spells) both your caster classes use Int.

I chose this route as wizard progresses through spell levels much faster than duskblade with a far wider choice of spells, without wasting any levels in base wizard which frankly is quite sucky.

this build has some cheese factor which is hopefully offset by the fact that you are playing a gish, a pure wizard at L11 would have 6th level spells, a pure duskblade would only have 3rd level (but some nice class features using them).

I chose some reserve feats as part of my build, i've heard that they are sub-par but clap of thunder works nicely for a gish imo. (have a sonic spell in reserve, gain touch attack 1d8/caster level of uncast spell)

Play this build if you plan to self / group buff then melee, go pure duskblade if you wish to cast offensively during melee.

[Hal]

Arcane Channeling and Armored Casting certainly give the Duskblade a leg up. The only real problem Duskblades face is a stunted selection of spells. Their spells only go up to 5th level, and what they have is limited in nature anyhow (small selection, and you can only pick one new spell each level).

[Talic]

How would you improve Battle Sorcerers so that they aren't as weak, Talic?

Depends on the theme. Would you say that the Battle Sorceror was supposed to be a front line caster? A gish? A back line variant on standard casting? Each would be designed differently, and each could incorporate bonus HP into an effective design.

[AstralFire]

Well, they're fundamentally different. Completely.

Battle Sorceror, IMO, is an idea full of fail. Extra HP in exchange for spells do nothing without allowing the caster more access to armored casting, and close combat related abilities. Such as what the Duskblade has.

Eh? Battle Sorc has all the armored casting you need. It does lack close-combat related abilities, though.

I do agree with others that you could add the Battle Sorc's bonuses without removing any of the normal Sorc's comparative abilities and you'd end up fine.

Duskblade is the stronger single class, but Battle Sorc, if you're willing to comb for feats and spells across 3.5, is the superior base for a multiclass.

[Starbuck_II]

What exactly do Spellswords do? That build could be interresting (sadly, it would lose 2 Caster Levels due to the Paladin dip).

Spellswords lower Arcane spell failure with all armors. Say you wore Mithral Chain Shirt add in 2 spell sword levels = 10% -10=0%.

If have access to Item Compenduim add in Twilight so you can make Mithral Breastplate have 0% ASF after adding the 2 spell sword levels.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the explanation. Playing as a Battle Sorcerer using the normal Sorcerer's spell progression could be interresting (I tend to see them as full casters with some combat abilities).

[Darrin]

Arcane Channeling and Armored Casting certainly give the Duskblade a leg up. The only real problem Duskblades face is a stunted selection of spells. Their spells only go up to 5th level, and what they have is limited in nature anyhow (small selection, and you can only pick one new spell each level).

You can fix the spell progression with Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Abj. Champ 5/Something Else X. You lose out on Arcane Channeling, but can pick up 9th level spells.

[Tempest Fennac]

How would that work? (I'm not familiar with Sublime Chords.)

[only1doug]

Spellswords lower Arcane spell failure with all armors. Say you wore Mithral Chain Shirt add in 2 spell sword levels = 10% -10=0%.

If have access to Item Compenduim add in Twilight so you can make Mithral Breastplate have 0% ASF after adding the 2 spell sword levels.

1 level of spellsword grants the reduced spell failure chance (and +1 BAB and +1 caster level, spells known etc)
the 1st level of spellsword is made of win.
the 2nd level of spellsword is made of lose. (i forget the features, but you don't get a caster level, your spellfailure in armour doesn't improve, don't bother unless you really need the next 10% from L3)

[Tempest Fennac]

To be honest, I'd only be interrested in using light armour (medium armour honestly doesn't seem to be worth it unless you're willing and able to spend money on Mithril Full Plate).

[Eldariel]

Sublime Chord has its own spell progression, just requiring Bardic Music and level 3 spells to get into, so Sublime Chord is good for "replacing" a lackluster progression and getting into 9 in 10 as long as you've got level 3s. Of course, it still requires 10 levels, so no Duskblade 13s or you're kissing level 9 magic goodbye.

[Tempest Fennac]

Which book is it in? I'll see if I can find it later.

[Eldariel]

Complete Arcane.

[weenie]

Duskblade. Full Attack Empowered Vampiric Touch. Suck my 75d6 damage and I gain it as HP.

Full attack arcane channeling affects each target once. So you could hit as many targets as you have attacks in a round with your touch spells, but even if you hit a target more than once, it still gets affected by the spell once only.

With enough splatbooks Battle Sorcerers are actually stronger than Duskblades. They have access to the best spell list out there and even if they don't get lots of spells, they can still pick the best ones. Picking multifunction spells is the key here. Lightning leap from Complete Mage is a perfect example. Duskblades are a bit awkward at level 6-12, because you can full attack or arcane channel, but you can't do both. And multi/prestige classing is not such a good idea either, because then you have to wait even more to get full attack channeling, and regular channeling pretty much sucks at high levels. There would have been nothing wrong in giving duskblades full attack arcane channeling at lvl 6 in my opinion.

[Tempest Fennac]

I ended up drawing up a list of spells which I'd give a Battle Sorcerer a while back. Please could I see the list you'd pick if you were playing one without any PrCs, weenie?