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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    So, my current character is a Baron, lord of a small county and a very ambitious man.

    The situation and the area:
    Spoiler
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    Back home (East), a civil war is raging and has already claimed his father and elder brother. Back there, heavy lancers are the weapon of choice (regardless of the more likely realities of urban fighting).

    In my lands, I have alot of rivers and farmland. I have a very large forest to my West that is infested with goblins and recently hobgoblins (made a bloody castle...). I have mountains with ogres and hill giants to the north, and a swamp with trolls and Will-o-Wisps. Far in the Westerly woods lie elves, who occassionally come through my lands to trade with us. It is from them that we gained the making of longbows.

    To my immediate west I have a large area of open plainsland with a few large hill-lines (ridgelines). Thus, my people favor archery and light horsemen (think Rohirrin).

    I currently control a small town around my main keep, a large town, and a number of villages and hamlets.

    Note that this is a low-magic campaign, magic items are uncommon and at double cost. Casters are quite rare, although my character is:
    scout 1/ranger 3//fighter 4

    My youngest sister has recently discovered to be a sorceress, so after a few years of headaches (young girl + uncontrolled strange powers=see any anime for referance ) that will be a considerable asset.



    Also, see this thread for some of his current plans for construction projects:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90008

    Current Forces:

    Note: All units are 20 'men'.

    {table]Unit|Mount|Weapon 1|Weapon 2|Armor|Lvl
    Ranger Guard|L W H|Comp. Longbow|Longsword|Chain Shirt, L. Wood Shield, Stud. Leath Bard|2
    Skirmishers|None|Shortbow|Longsword|Stud. Leath, L. Wood Shield|1
    Light Calvary|L W H|Shortbow|Longsword, Lance|Stud Leath, Stud Leather Bard, H Wood Shield|1.5
    Light Calvary|L W H|Shortbow|Longsword, Lance|Stud Leath, Stud Leather Bard, H Wood Shield|1
    Medium Infant|None|Longsword|Dagger|Scale Mail, H Wood Shield|1
    Medium Pikes|None|Longspear|Dagger|Scale Mail|1
    Longbow Men|None|Longbow|Dagger|Leather|1
    Longbow Men|None|Longbow|Dagger|Leather|1[/table]

    Future Ideas:

    Spoiler
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    Heavy Pikes (in training) (ftr)
    Longspear (100), Great sword (1,000), Dagger (40), Banded Mail (5,000), Light Xbow (700).
    Feats: Wpn Focus (longspear), Power Attack, Cleave. Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Charge-Breaker (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (Longspear) (lvl 4), Formation Expert (lvl 6), Hold the Line (lvl 6).
    Total Cost of Unit: 6,840

    Heavy Calvary (ftr)
    H Warhorse (8,000), MW Lance (6,200), Banded Mail (5,000), Banded Mail Barding (20,000), H. Steel Shield (400), Longsword (300), Light Xbow (700)
    Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Wpn Focus (lance). Spirited Charge (lvl 2), Trample (lvl 3), Wpn Spec Lance (lvl 4).
    Total Cost of Unit: 40,600

    Heavy Infantry (ftr)
    Longsword (300), Dagger (40), Tower Shield (600), Banded Mail (5,000).
    Feats: Shield Wall, Wpn Focus (longsword), Shield Focus (tower). Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Shield Specialization (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (longsword) (lvl 4).
    Total Cost of Unit: 5,940

    Longbow Men (war)
    Longbow (1,500), dagger (40), leather armor (200).
    Feats: Wpn Focus (longbow), Far Shot.
    Total Cost of Unit: 1,740

    Anti-Calvary Crossbowmen (war)
    Heavy Xbow (1,000), Longspear (100), Dagger (40), Studded Leather (500).
    Feats: Point Blank Shot, Ready Shot. Weapon Focus (heavy xbow) (lvl 3).
    Total Cost of Unit: 1,640

    Attack Infant (barb)
    Great sword (1,000), battleaxe (200), Studded Leather (500).
    Feats: Power Attack, Cleave. Wpn Focus (great sword) (lvl 3).
    Total Cost of Unit: 1,700

    Spies (rog)
    Shortsword (200), Light Xbow (700), Dagger, Studded Leather (500), MW thieves tools (2000), thieves equipment (300).
    Feats: Stealthy, Pt-Blank Shot. Precise Shot (lvl 2).
    Total Cost of Unit: 3,700

    Super Heavy Calvary (ftr 2)
    H Warhorse (8,000), MW Lance (6,200), Full Plate (30,000), Full Plate Barding (120,000), H. Steel Shield (400), MW Longsword (6,300), Heavy Xbow (1,000)
    Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Wpn Focus (lance), Spirited Charge. Trample (lvl 3), Wpn Spec Lance (lvl 4).
    Total Cost of Unit: 171,900

    Super Heavy Infantry (ftr)
    Longsword (300), Dagger (40), Tower Shield (600), Full Plate (30,000).
    Feats: Shield Wall, Wpn Focus (longsword), Shield Focus (tower). Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Shield Specialization (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (longsword) (lvl 4).
    Total Cost of Unit: 30,940

    Large Attack Infant (barb)
    L Great sword (1,500), L battleaxe (300), L Studded Leather (1,000).
    Feats: Power Attack, Cleave. Wpn Focus (great sword) (lvl 3).
    Total Cost of Unit: 2,800

    Medium Pikes (war)
    Longspear (100), Halberd (200), Scale Mail (1,000).
    Feats: Weapon Focus (longspear), Combat Reflexes. Hold the line (lvl 3).
    Total Cost of Unit: 1,300

    Hunters (rgr)
    L Warhorse (3,000), Comp. Longbow (2,000), Longsword (300), Dagger (40), H Wood Shield (200), Studded Leather (500).
    Feats: Pt Blank Shot, Wpn Focus (longbow). Rapid Shot (lvl 2 CS), Precise Shot (lvl 3).
    Total Cost: 5,540



    Note that recruitment costs are not included because I can currently recruit troops for 'free' (upkeep starts when they start training, but my trainer is an old soldier of my house and doesn't charge me). I can train a troop of warriors in 6 months, elites (PC classes) take a year.

    Also, this is everything I could think of that I could possibly make in the future, I don't have the reasources and intent to make all/half of this.

    On that note, my current treasury is about 15,000. I have a quarterly income of about 5,500 right now. Although I intend to increase this substainially, I also have quite a bit earmarked for things like weapon upgrades for my personal gaurd (mighty 3 comp longbows) and domestic construction (to increase said income).


    SO, what I ask of you is, what cool ideas for DnD-style forces do YOU have? Keep suggestions somewhat reasonable, as "hire a troop of dragons" is not only not possible, I don't have the resources to do it even if it was.

    Also, you can critique my ideas/designs above if you like.


    OH, and do note that most 3.5 material is allowed, but as I mentioned earlier low-magic (can't hire a bunch of clerics... well might be able to, but it would be horribly expensive). Also, we aren't using psionics, ToB, ToM, Cscoundrel or Cchampion or most Dragon material in this campaign.

    Finally, a relivant excerpt from my Tome of House Rules (reading isn't essential, but it explains a few of the feats my men have. Also, has some really great content).

    Spoiler
    Show
    Feats (Core):

    -Natural Spell is banned.
    -You may take a ‘skill feat’ that gives +2 to two skill checks and apply it to an appropriately-themed skill set instead of two separate skills. Alternately, you may select another type of skill check along the same theme. You gain the benefit for that skill as well.
    -Combat Casting grants a +5 bonus.
    -Combat Expertise allows the subtraction of any value from attacks rolls, limited only by BAB.
    -Combat Reflexes allows you to make Attacks-of-Opportunity while flat-footed (but you must be aware of your opponent). This does not make you not flat-footed; it is not Uncanny Dodge.
    -Dodge works on any opponent, as long as you are aware of them prior to the attack. For supporting Feats or abilities that work off of Dodge, you must still declare an opponent for those abilities.
    -*Endurance Grants +2 HP and allows you to move your normal speed despite encumbrance, in addition to normal benefits. It now has “Con 13+” as a prerequisite.
    -Far Shot no-longer has any prerequisites.
    -Great Fortitude also adds +2 to Constitution checks (but not to Constitution-based skill checks or HD rolls).
    -Iron Will also adds +2 to Wisdom checks (but not Wisdom-based skill checks).
    -Lightning Reflexes also adds +2 to Dexterity checks (but not Dexterity-based skill checks or Initiative checks).
    -Improved Shield Bash also grants a +4 bonus to attack rolls with your shield when performing shield bash attacks.
    -Manyshot does not have Rapid Shot as a prerequisite.
    -Mobility also grants +8 to Tumble checks when tumbling to move past opponents.
    -Quick Draw also allows you to sheath a weapon as a swift action.
    -Quicken Spell has the prerequisite “Ability to cast 4th-level spells”.
    -Improved Critical now stacks with Keen Edge, but not with any other effect or ability that may increase critical threat range (unless that ability explicitly states that it stacks).
    -Ride-by-Attack prerequisites increased to Ride 3 ranks, in addition to as-written.
    -Skill Focus also makes the chosen skill a class skill for you, for all classes. Furthermore, it has “4 ranks in the selected skill” as a prerequisite, grants a +4 bonus to that skill and allows you to take 10 when performing it even while rushed or threatened.
    -Spirited Charge prerequisites increased to BAB 2+, Ride 5 ranks, in addition to as-written.
    -Whirlwind Attack prerequisites changed to: Dex 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, BAB 6+; instead of as written.
    -Weapon Finesse prerequisites changed to Precision Strike, Dex 15+, BAB 3+ and grants the ability to add your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength modifier to melee damage. (see Combat section, beginning of tome, for more details)
    -Weapon Focus grants +2 to hit with the selected weapon.
    -Weapon Specialization grants +3 damage with the selected weapon.
    -Greater Weapon Focus grants a further +2 to hit with the selected weapon, +4 to defensive Sunder or Disarm rolls involving the weapon and the ability to take 10 on attack rolls involving the weapon.
    -Greater Weapon Specialization grants a further +3 damage with the selected weapon and doubles the weapon damage dice (1d8 becomes 2d8, 2d6 becomes 4d6, etc). Furthermore, you automatically succeed at critical confirmation rolls with the selected weapon.

    New Feats:

    Pierce the Wind [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 8+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Strength 19+

    Benefit: When firing in windy conditions, you may treat the wind as if it was two levels milder. This allows you to fire through a Wind Wall or similar effect.


    Shield Focus [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 1+, proficiency with selected shields.

    Benefit: Choose a type of shield, such as large or small. Your AC bonus from that type of shield is increased by 1. Also, you gain +1 to attack rolls with that type of shield.


    Shield Specialization [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 3+, proficiency with shields.

    Benefit: The armor bonus granted to you by all non-buckler shields is increased by 2. Furthermore, you get an additional +1 to attack and damage rolls using shields.

    Note: These benefits stack with those from the Shield Focus feat.


    Shield Mastery [General]

    Prerequisites: Fighter level 8+, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization

    Benefit: Choose a type of shield, that you have taken Shield Focus for. You gain the following benefits:
    -You gain your shield’s AC bonus to your Reflex saves against effects that allow Reflex saves for half damage.
    -You gain DR 2/- if you specialized in small shields, DR 4/- if you specialized in large shields, or DR 6/- if you specialized in tower shields. You have this DR against any attack that your shield’s AC bonus applies.
    -Your shield is considered 1 size larger; such as for the purposes of disarm attempts or how much damage it deals in a shield bash attack.


    Armor Mastery [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Armor Focus, Armor Specialization, proficient with all types of armor.

    Benefit: The AC granted by any armor you wear is increased by 2 and the Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 4. Furthermore, you gain Damage Reduction based on how heavy your armor is. Light armor grants DR 2/-, Medium armor grants DR 5/-, Heavy Armor grants DR 10/-. The DR granted by this feat does not stack with that granted by Armor Specialization. The AC bonus granted by this feat does stacks with Armor Focus.


    Armor Focus [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 1+, proficient selected armor.

    Benefit: Choose a particular style of armor, such as light, heavy or exotic. The AC granted by this type of armor to you increases by 2 and its armor check penalty is reduced by 1.


    Defensive Feint [General]

    Benefit: When a character successfully feints an opponent, he or she may elect to forego the opponent becoming flat-footed against the next attack in favour of gaining either a +4 dodge bonus to AC or partial (20%) concealment against that opponent for the duration of the following round.


    Sweeping Whirlwind Attack [General]

    Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, BAB 11+

    Benefit: When you use Whirlwind Attack, you strike every opponent you threaten that has less then one half cover to you.


    Improved Whirlwind Attack [General]

    Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, BAB 9+.

    Benefit: You may use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action.


    Master Whirlwind Attack:

    Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack, BAB 11+

    Benefit: The Whirlwind Attack feat may be used in conjunction with Great Cleave.


    Maim [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 5+, Improved Sunder

    Benefit: As a standard action, you may attempt to make a single melee crippling attack at a -2 penalty to-hit. If your attack deals 10 or more damage, all forms of your target’s movement speed are reduced to half.

    You may use this ability multiple times on the same opponent, its effects stack. However, subsequent Maims only reduce the target’s movement speed by 5ft each. Speed my be reduced to 0ft but not below it in this fashion.

    These reductions last until the subject heals an amount of damage equal to the attack, tracked separately for each.


    Efficient Spellcasting

    Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, caster level 5+.

    Benefit: You may maintain concentration on a spell as a move-equivilent action. Also, you may dismiss spells as a swift action.


    Improved Resistance

    Prerequisites: Innate Resistance 4, Con 13+

    Benefit: Your Innate Resistance value improves by 4.

    Special: You may take this feat multiple times, its effects stack.


    Persistent Resistance

    Prerequisites: Innate Resistance 14, Con 15+

    Benefit: Spellcasters must check twice to overcome your Innate Resistance, succeeding both times in order to effect you with a spell. If you have an ability that is bolstered passively by IR, it is also subject to this benefit.


    Spell Ward

    Prerequisite: Innate Resistance 11, Con 15+

    Benefit: You gain +2 to all saves versus spells and spell-like effects.


    Aggressive Stance

    Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Str 13+

    Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from your AC and add that number to all melee attack rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus


    Precision Strike [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Weapon Finesse

    Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add that number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. You must use a weapon that benefits from Weapon Finesse with this feat. The penalties to attack and bonuses to damage last until your next turn. Targets immune to precision damage (such as undead) are likewise immune to this effect.

    Unlike Power Attack, the kind of weapon and how you wield it is irrelevant to the functioning of this feat; the only requirement being that you use a weapon you have taken Weapon Finesse for.

    This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack or Called Shot.


    Called Shot [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

    Benefit: On your action, before making an attack roll, you may choose to subtract a number from your ranged attack rolls and add that number to your ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. Targets immune to precision damage (such as undead) are likewise immune to this effect.

    Your target must be within 30ft to benefit from this effect.

    This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack or Precision Strike.


    Pin Down [General]

    Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

    Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make a single ranged attack with a bow, light or heavy crossbow or medium-sized or larger thrown weapon against a ground based target within 60ft. If your attack hits, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) or be pinned immobile by your attack, unable to move from that spot. Your opponents may still attack and defend themselves normally and this feat does not work on opponents more then two size categories larger then yourself.

    This effect may be removed be a DC 20 heal check requiring a full-round action or by magical healing equal to the original damage of the attack. Otherwise it ends in 3 rounds as the weapon works itself free.
    Alternately, the affected individual may attempt a DC 15 Strength check as a move-equivalent action to pull the weapon free. However, doing so results in 1d8 damage to the individual and reduces their movement by half (DC 15 heal check to remove this penalty, or magically healing the damage caused by pulling the weapon loose).
    If an opponent is afflicted by more then one Pin Down effect, increase all DCs by 5 for each additional active effect.


    Charge Breaker [General]

    Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (any weapon that does additional damage to a charging opponent, such as a longspear), Power Attack, BAB 3+.

    Benefit: When you ready a weapon against a charge, you deal double damage (or triple damage with a spear). Furthermore, you gain +4 to hit a charging opponent.


    Expert Charger (General)

    Prerequisite: BAB 1+, Power Attack.

    Benefit: Your bonus on attack rolls while charging is doubled to +4.


    Mounted Charger

    Prerequisite: BAB 1+, Mounted Combat, Ride 4 ranks.

    Benefit: Your bonus on attack rolls while charging is doubled to +4.


    Anti-Magic Specialist [General]

    Prerequisites: Ability to cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, Spell Focus (abjuration), Spellcraft 5 ranks, Know (arcane) 5 ranks.

    Benefit: Add 4 to your caster level check when you cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic. Gain +2 to Spellcraft or knowledge (arcane) checks to identify an active spell or magical effect.
    Last edited by Kizara; 2008-09-10 at 05:06 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    You might find this thread entertaining:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...37#post2166937

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
    You might find this thread entertaining:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...37#post2166937
    Wow, what an awesome reasource. Thank you so much for the link.
    Last edited by Kizara; 2008-09-10 at 11:09 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Too complex; didn't read

    Suggest using Birthright's army system, or possibly the D&D Cyclopedia's War Machine, as an alternative.

    I just have this aversion to reinventing the wheel is all...

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    Too complex; didn't read

    Suggest using Birthright's army system, or possibly the D&D Cyclopedia's War Machine, as an alternative.

    I just have this aversion to reinventing the wheel is all...
    What? This isn't some homebrew system, although there are homebrew ELEMENTS in it I suppose.

    Its a character that has a standing army. The data lists things like what kind of forces he has and their equipment. Please tell me what part is so complex about reading:

    A) A fairly brief and concise backstory/setting description.

    B) A table listing unit types and basic equipment.

    C) A list of other ideas for units that list basic unit type and equipment.

    D) Basic rules/restrictions.

    I mean, its not "LOL I WANS ARMYS PLS MAKE THX!", but its hardly complex. Honestly, your suggestions WOULD be 'reinventing the wheel', as I don't need to make new rule systems at all here. Its just a bloody listing of classes and equipment for frick sakes...
    Last edited by Kizara; 2008-09-11 at 05:08 AM.

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    Hal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    I'd hire a bunch of barbarians to act as shock troopers.

    I'd also see about throwing Knights/Marshalls in there to give boosts to your troops.
    Halbert's Cubicle - Wherein I write about gaming and . . . you know . . . stuff.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    You probably mean "cavalry". Calvary is Golgotha.

    Obvious advice includes stuff like dwarf heavy infantry; less penalized by their armor, tougher, and able to wield dwarven waraxes. Or halfling slingers. Consider, also, the mobility of any unit in medium or heavy armor - over long distances, that one-third penalty to speed will really hurt, and lighter units can just skirt around them. This is why the heaviest armor goes on heavy cavalry.

    Probably less obvious stuff includes the actual structure. Are we talking about a standing army of, at this point, 160 men? How many thousands of direct subjects do you have? The cost would be prohibitive, surely - close to 6,000 gold per year just to feed them, assuming each meal costs 1 sp (i.e. you're feeding them pottage and gruel), or two or three times that for better food. You'd presumably have to replace equipment regularly - once a year? - and constantly breed or buy and then train new warhorses, unless you just bought them at need (which is unreliable to say the least). Then there's accommodations, and paying all the professionals and craftsmen (weapon- and blacksmiths, farriers, grooms, cooks, bowyers and fletchers, etc.) necessary to keep them maintained - which probably amounts to a good hundred people or more. (Camp followers of moving armies tend to be more numerous than the soldiers.)

    With a yearly income of 22,000 gp, I'd say your army is far, far over budget - assuming it's a standing one.

    Now, if you employed a system of yeomen and militia - like you'd see in an actual feudal state - with the leaders of farming households bearing responsibility for military service and maintaining their armaments, you could get the costs way down. You'd only worry about supplies during an actual campaign, which - assuming this is a defensive army - would be brief indeed. (Well, obviously you'd also need to store enough supplies in whatever castle or fortress you have to tide your army and subjects over an extended siege - however long it would take for your feudal lord, family, or staunch allies to raise an army and march over to lift the siege.)

    Of course, all this assumes your DM is actually this detail-oriented, but I assume he or she wishes to be, from the level of detail you've already got.

    Incidentally, why horses for hunters? They have no feats that would allow them to fight effectively from horseback (Mounted Archery being the most critical for light [i.e. skirmishing] cavalry). If they're dragoons, riding horses would be more than enough. And longspears plus halberds for pikes? What's the point? They can't exactly switch mid-battle. You'd want longspears or halberds, and shortswords. (I believe the German katzbalger shortsword was carried by pikemen, specifically?)


    All that said, my suggestion for an army is investing in a single warmage, or a sorcerer with fireball and similar spells. Web, grease, and glitterdust are all nice for warfare, too. Fly and greater invisibility would let such a spellcaster defeat all of the units you've envisioned. Instead of blowing money on equipping units, spend it on wands and potions. (The weakness here, obviously, is that it only takes a single similarly high-powered character to take this dude out. Then again, a 10th-level fighter could pretty reliably kill that army of 160...)

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizara View Post
    I mean, its not "LOL I WANS ARMYS PLS MAKE THX!", but its hardly complex. Honestly, your suggestions WOULD be 'reinventing the wheel', as I don't need to make new rule systems at all here. Its just a bloody listing of classes and equipment for frick sakes...
    As I said, D&D-style (as opposed to primary world) armies have been done before. Everything from race-specific units (Dwarven sappers, Elven guerillas, Gnome commandos, Orc stormers) through monster mobs (blink dog packs, gaggles of cockatrice, swarms of spiders) to outright weird stuff (the flying broomstick air marines, thaumo-mechanical nautilus units). The above named sources were cited as inspiration as much as being examples of implementation.

    Statting out unit upon unit of ablative armour troops as PC classed Fighter types by cost per unit seems overkill to me though. Surely keeping track of these armed yahoos is what your cohort is for? And - as they're non-heroic characters - surely Warrior would be more fitting (yes, even for elites like cataphracts)?
    Last edited by bosssmiley; 2008-09-11 at 08:28 AM.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    All that said, my suggestion for an army is investing in a single warmage, or a sorcerer with fireball and similar spells. Web, grease, and glitterdust are all nice for warfare, too. Fly and greater invisibility would let such a spellcaster defeat all of the units you've envisioned. Instead of blowing money on equipping units, spend it on wands and potions. (The weakness here, obviously, is that it only takes a single similarly high-powered character to take this dude out. Then again, a 10th-level fighter could pretty reliably kill that army of 160...)
    This is the most important thing that can be said. I know you mentioned that spellcasters are rare (at best), but you really, REALLY need to get a few on your side. I suggest a Sorcerer of some kind, and probably a few Warmages. The best part about Warmages is that they can be trained if you have the money and the time. It's expensive as all hell, but it can be done. I'd also suggest you get some rogues with UMD and lots of potions/wands/scrolls of useful spells. Even just giving every person in your army a single potion of cure light wounds can work wonders.

    -argus

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Even as a feudal lord, you don't need much of a standing army. A personal elite guard. Say six Fighters of the same level as you would get for leadership.

    Then two dozen guards of half to two-thirds of that level. This is your castle guard.

    The rest of the army, you do British style. No one works on sunday, because it's a day dedicated to practicing the arts of war. Archery, swordsmanship, work with pikes. Naturally, this is only farmers and townsfolk who aren't called upon for those skills every day, the way your rangers or town guards would be. Guardsmen would be excellent as commanders for pikes. By dispersing the out put through out the villages, you get a larger effective army, with a smaller monetary out put.

    It also digs up talent easier. Need a new commander of archers? Send out word to the villages to hold archery tournaments. Winner comes to capital for tournament. Overall winner gets promotion.

    You might want to give your Anti-Cavalry Improved Sunder and Maim. Nothing says 'Stop Cavalry' like cutting their speed in half.

    Heavy Infantry? I'd drop the daggers and give them Javelin's instead. Romans knew enough to engage from range first, then hit them head on.

    I also doubt the wisdom of giving heavy cavalry crossbows. They'll get far more damage from charging and can fight their way out of trouble anyway.

    And as Tsotha-lanti pointed out, Heavy armor infantry is defensive in nature. It's the center of your army so it might be better to give the crossbows too.

    All of this assumes purely human troops. Adding races adds tactics.
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    I'd propose a Dragon Shaman or a Marshall as a sergeant/captain/combat medic. The last one especially if you're taking Dragon Shaman. Even a first level one is very useful, due to the fast heal aura.

    A Cleric could be useful as well.

    You might also want look at Heroes of Battle for siege engines (or DMG. HoB just has them on more detail). You could also either hire or train an Expert craftsman to craft them for you, to make it a lot cheaper. It is quite possible to do this at level 1 with ease. (4 ranks + Skill focus 3 + Int 1-3 + Masterwork Artisan tools +2 = +10-+13.)

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    The commoners with poor stats as level 1 warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Entropic Warding.

    They may have low HP and horrible stats, but there are a heck of a lot of them, and they cost nothing to produce, compared to melee fighters that have to be trained, fed, and armored.

    Toss on a dragonfire Inspiration bard (can get +3d6 damage with the right spells and feats) and you're pretty much set.
    Last edited by Stupendous_Man; 2008-09-11 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupendous_Man View Post
    The commoners with poor stats as level 1 warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Entropic Warding.
    ...
    Toss on a dragonfire Inspiration bard (can get +3d6 damage with the right spells and feats) and you're pretty much set.
    Kizara said this is a low-magic world. I somehow doubt he'll have a dragonfire bard lying around, and he certainly won't be able to turn his peasants into warlocks.

    Overall, I tihnk you've got a nice setup and are headed in the right direction. I may be biased - I'm a bit of a sucker for mobility over heavy armor - but I'd build some more light, mobile units like light cavalry or horse archers. If you have wide open plains the enemy's going to be traveling across, mobile harassment units could do wonders for inflicting casualties and stomping morale.

    On the subject of hitting armies marching over wide plains, perhaps invest in some siege equipment like ballistae. A line of those firing at troops in formation from large distances means heavy casualties before they can even imagine it.

    Most of the other suggestions I agree with, especially throwing some marshals or bards into the mix.

    Another thought, along those lines: Maybe spend less money on increasing the number of troops, and focus more on improving the quality of their armor, weapons, etc. I've always been a proponent of improving quality (which is why, in RTS games, you'll see me with half the troops and all the upgrades for them). This is especially important if you have a cap on how many men you can draft into your armies.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Tactics-wise, the only real option is massed archers with some incidental pikemen and a lot of stakes driven into the ground. Suddenly, you can take on a force of heavy cavalry with five times your numbers. (Be sure to use the volley rules from Heroes of Battle.) If you want some of them to get around fast, give them riding horses - they won't fight mounted, but can cover distances quickly.

    You can use these troops on open ground (though you'd want an obstacle - a river, a swamp, whatever - between you and the open ground), on broken ground (even better!), on battlements... whatever.

    Vary their secondary equipment and armor a bit - handaxes, morningstars, leather or chainmail, maybe bucklers if you feel like spending, and even tower shields for a unit or two (you stick them in the ground and kneel behind them)... and you've got a more multi-purpose force capable of mopping up the demoralized enemy decimated by arrow volleys.

    Oh, incidentally, on those pikemen - halberds are no good, since they've got no reach. Definitely longspears and short swords.

    And on a technical note, your medium infantry is pretty much heavy infantry - armor on infantry didn't really get heavier than mail. Plate-armored troops on foot are just dismounted knights and men-at-arms (since, you know, marching in plate and then fighting for several hours is pretty much an impossible idea) - or, I suppose in this case, dwarven heavy infantry.

    Note, too, that your proposed "super-heavy infantry" is not only a bit silly (what units ever carried tower shields - i.e., pavises, meant for archers to hide behind - and wore heavy armor?), but game-mechanics-wise they'd have to have Str 14+ to avoid being heavily loaded, or Str 19+ to avoid being under medium load. With an elite array, 14+ is doable, but I doubt they'd be marching much of anywhere.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    I had a random thought: if you come under attack, and need to hold a chokepoint against an army, then you may wish to think about having an elite corps of defensive troops.

    I'm thinking something like: Tower Shield, Chain Shirt, Long Sword. Give them lots of hyper-defensive feats (anything that increases their durability/ability to evade hits).

    Tactically, walk them into said chokepoint, sit them in lines, and defend them with ranged cover fire. Also, get some commoners in there to hold shields over their heads, so random arrows don't gank them. It's not perfect, but I bet they will survive a damn long time before the enemy finally bashes through them, time that you can use to prepare counter-attacks and more powerful defenses.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    I was reading through your Tome of House Rules, and this struck me as odd...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome of House Rules
    -Combat Reflexes allows you to make Attacks-of-Opportunity while flat-footed (but you must be aware of your opponent). This does not make you not flat-footed; it is not Uncanny Dodge.
    Isn't this exactly what CR does? It has 2 functions, one is to grant you additional AoOs based on your dex bonus, and the other is to allow you to take AoOs while flat footed. Nowhere does it say anything else, like making you not flatfooted, with regards to being snuck attacked or recieving your dex bonus to AC.

    Just curious as to the purpose of this redundant rule redundancy.
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Looks like a good start. As with any tactical game of war, however, money is the key, you have alot of it we can see, but more would never hurt. More money is more troops and more troops is more power.

    I'd start by trying to increase your income in some way, perhaps by doing some studying of crops and see how you can increase crop production (I.E find a way to make it seem feasible that someone in your employ invented crop rotation or some kind of crap.) Or expanding your operations, you could convince the DM that having soldiers work in mines or digging trenches a few days out of the week builds strength and allows them to get a feel for powerfully swinging weapons (I.E They're working on doing things to make your country better, but they're getting training at the same time. Obviously this won't work forever, but as much multi-tasking as could be done the better.)

    Also, what's your trading situation like? Roads make it cheaper to maintain trading routes because you have to replace wagons and horses less, also imposing tariffs can help revenue generation. Play the market, be the savvy business man, ASK your DM where you get the things that your country uses and does not produce, then see if you can't get it from someone else cheaper, or get into negotiations to drive down the price from the guy you do get it from.

    Remember: More money=More power.

    Also, when it does come time to battle, don't forget the usefulness of a cleverly laid trap, even a small pit dug in the ground can stop up a line of charging horsemen for a while, or a while longer for your archers to dominate them.

    Focus on Archers, as other have said, but don't forget about Seige Equipment. It's expensive, but man can it be devastating. Trebuchets are a rather simple design but are grand in use and power, and instead of focusing your men into many many calvary groups, use two or three very very highly trained ones, so when you need to rush the edge of a line, you know your guys are better than theirs.

    If you focus on many archers and highly trained calvary, you can hit often and cheaply, then hit HARD when you need to.

    My best advice for you.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Siege engines aren't worth a lot. A single mid-level wizard or even rogue is worth more than any number of siege engines when laying siege to an enemy fortification. Even a mid-level fighter could just climb the wall, fight his way to the gatehouse, and open the gate. One invisibility spell will let a commoner achieve this.

    Edit: And Calvary is still Golgotha, while cavalry fight mounted. They don't even sound the same.
    Last edited by Tsotha-lanti; 2008-09-11 at 01:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    What I want to know is what do you plan on doing with said army? Are you marching to war? Or is this a defensive force?

    I know its low magic, but you really need to look into getting some clerics and bards. Clerics can buff and heal your forces, while bards provide boosts with their songs (drums anyone), and magic.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Cleric healing for an army is rarely going to be worth it. One 1st-level cleric can cast CLW two or three times (a wand, obviously, will let them heal more, but you'll be paying absolutely ridiculous amounts for healing then), at best sparing you three casualties per day, but quite possibly just one. A bunch of experts with the Heal skill will probably be much more useful. You'd need well over a dozen to make much of a real difference for an army like this. Bless and bane may be more useful, obviously, and higher-level clerics would - obviously - clean house. Buff up, rout the enemy, MCSW the troops, and lead a pursuit!

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Even without actual clerics, if you have access to wands of CLW, train some 1st level rogues with UMD, Skill Focus, and the relevant +2 skill (can't recall the name). Take 10 to activate the wands, with no need for a standing caster. FAR more efficient than getting actual spellcasters and having them use the same wands anyway.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    50 gp per CLW is an outrageous price when we're talking about an army, really.

    Besides, potions of CLW would cost the exact same, and require no UMD or cleric medics.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    I'd suggest giving each rogue a handful of eternal wands, instead. Much more cost-effective in the long run.
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    If you're going for realism, make the bulk of your army militia archers (commoners with crossbows, Longbows you need to train a long time) with some light infantry with longspears and shortswords, and a cadre of mounted knights (warriors or fighters with medium or heavy armour, hand weapons of some sort, maybe lances, shields, definately shields, horses, duh, a level or three beyond your average soldier, mounted combat feats.) for hitting stuff REALLY hard. it would help if you described the function of your army (conquest? defence?) and the terrain you expect to fight in (is the kingdom heavily forested? or is it more like Castille? fields? hills?)
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Palantir View Post
    Even without actual clerics, if you have access to wands of CLW, train some 1st level rogues with UMD, Skill Focus, and the relevant +2 skill (can't recall the name). Take 10 to activate the wands, with no need for a standing caster. FAR more efficient than getting actual spellcasters and having them use the same wands anyway.
    You can't take 10 on UMD unless you're a 4th level Warlock. I agree with getting your hands on some Eternal Wands of CLW (or Lesser Vigor).

    It's probably too magical for your game, but consider an automatically resetting trap of CLW or Lesser Vigor. Overall likely much cheaper, and more effective, than a hospital or the like.

    On the note of spies, see if you can find some Warlocks. Beguiling Influence, Entropic Warding, and Spiderwalk are all Least Invocations.

    Outside of that, we really need to know what the army is intended to be used for. Expansion, rebellion, defense, Invasion? And what type of terrain you expect to use it in?

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Magic items cost double in this setting. Behold, my suggestions:

    Battlefield Medic
    L1 Expert - Any Race (Human or Halfling Prefered)
    Equipment: Leather Armor, Club, (Masterwork?) Healer's Kit
    Feats: Skill Focus (Heal), Self Sufficient if Human
    Class Skills: Heal, Survival, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Swim

    The Battlefield Medic is a stand alone in small groups, a skirmishing team that mops up in multiple regiments, and one-per infantry squad in the full army.

    Sentinel
    L1 Expert - Any Race (Elf, Half-Elf, or Halfling Prefered)
    Equipment: Leather Armor, Shortbow, Sickle
    Feats: Alertness, Point Blank Shot if Human
    Class Skills: Climb, Survival, Craft (Trapmaking,) Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Swim

    A skirmishing unit that scouts out the enemy position and harries it with archer fire to disrupt their ranks. What would be great is if you could come up with mundane traps that can be set up on the field without being a Combat Trapsmith.

    More to come, hopefully a job for those half-orcs you get in the peacetimes.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    If casters are not much of an option, get Marshals. This is what they're for.

    Traps are also a good idea. We can see how the enemy's main charge turns out when they hit the caltrops or barbed wire.

    Since casters are so rare, that just makes them more valuable. One guy with Fireball can dictate this war.

    Oh, and strategic assassinations of the most important people on the other side. Don't forget the underhanded tactics.
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Archery Commander
    L1 Ranger - Any (Half-Orc discouraged)
    Equipment: Studded Leather, Longbow, Short Sword
    Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot if Human
    Skills: Spot, Listen, Survival, Heal
    Favored Enemy: Whoever's been attacking lately.

    The Archery Commander is the one who pinpoints targets for the Arrow Volley attack on pg. 124 of Complete Warrior.

    Frontliner
    L1 Warrior - Any (Half-Orc or Human prefered)
    Equipment: Longspear, Shortspear, Studded Leather, Heavy Steel Shield
    Feats: Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw if Human
    Skills: Intimidate? Who cares, it's a Frontliner

    The Frontliner has Shortspears and Shields in the front lines, Longspears in the rear. If enemy troops try to move in over a fallen Frontliner, they're looking at up to five AoOs. If forced to mop up due to area spells, siege weapons, or big bad monsters, their Light Armor and non-Dwarfness will help them have a mobility edge over their foes.

    Frontliner Commander
    L1 Marshal - I don't know the stuff for the Marshal class. One to each regiment, with the same equipment if Shield Proficiency isn't an issue.

    Frontliner Support
    L1 Bard - Any (Half-Orc discouraged)
    Equipment: Longspear, Studded Leather
    Feats: Extra Music, Toughness if Human (need the extra hp)
    Skills: Perform and Concentration are musts, w/e for the rest
    Spells Known: Message, Mending, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights
    Special: Healing Hymn, if only help help the wounded between battles.

    If you can get Bards in addition to Marshals, do so. Oh, DO SO. Being able to cast Message alone allows for rapid communication among the ranks, and Dancing Lights allows for signalling the army as a whole. Nevermind the boost they provide to the troops. Healing Hymn is from Complete Champion, so you know.

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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Bluff is more useful for a frontliner so he can succeed at feint. Shortspear wielders could have Tower shields if you're using a Roman tactic, the large shields for Greek.

    I'd dump mending for CMW. It'll stabilize and give time for them to be withdrawn.
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    Default Re: Building an Army, one unit at a time. (3.5)

    Attack Infants? Large Attack Infants? "Release the War toddlers! The Diapers of rage are upon ye!"

    Either way, Yeomen are a great asset to any budding army. They lack the armor-piercing power of Crossbows, but they can fire a LOT faster... I think it's why the english beat the french back in the middle ages.

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