Best Undead

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Our Sorcerer just got Animate Dead and an amulet that allows him to control up to 4x his caster level in undead. So, 36 HD, with a maximum limit for each individual of 18 HD. He wants about 4hd for servants and a flying scout, so he needs the 2 best monsters with 16 or so HD each. He's not too sure and with a Math Exam next week doesn't have the time to devote to it. So, I told him I'd toss it to y'all. What should he re-animate, assuming he can find a corpse?

Edit: I know Sorcerers should never take Animate Dead, trust me when I say he got a houserule that made it worth it.

[Keld Denar]

Something like an advanced wyvern would be excellent for a flying form. Just find an oldish one of about appropriate power, kill it, and reanimate it up as a friendly flyer. There is also that big ol' dragon from one of the faerun books that has a crush attack. Its non-magical and relatively stupid, so you aren't losing too much by undeadifying it. Forgot the name, but someone here'll probably figure it out. Started with IL or something.

I'd also highly recommend something large with a burrow speed. This is just tooooo fun. Something like an advanced Dire Badger or Bullette. Then just hollow out the chest cavity and hop in, it'll take you for a ride.

Remember, zombies retain all of their origional (ex) movement modes, but skellies don't.

[Idea Man]

The stupid dragon is an Ibrandlin, from Monsters of Faerun. 10 HD before zombifying it (so 20 after), so the sorcerer will have to wait a level. Tough, but it loses special attacks from turning into the mindless undead (like the crush), so not too impressive. Gargantuan in size, though, so it's still possible to tell it to "sit" on the annoying people.

Hydra and small dragons as skeletons can be the biggest bang for your buck, since they keep their multiple attacks. Ettins are good here, too. Save zombies for the heavy hitters, or anything you need to fly.

[ocato]

While not necessarily applicable here, I always like Wights. Controlling one wight is not hard. Wight +a crowd of Commoners equals many Wights that are technically in control of the first Wight. So you build a wight-chain for the cost of 4 HD (+class levels if you want) that is eventually big enough that their strength is significantly less important. You tell Wight Prime to command his pretties to do whatever you want them to do and success is had by all.

10,000 wights will level drain a L20 uber character to death eventually. And if not, bring 20,000. All you really have to do is invade enough hamlets, villages, and townships until you have half the population of whatever kingdom roaming the countryside looking for levels to drain.


Will a DM allow this? Rarely if ever. Expect some jerk NPC wizard or something to come carpet bomb them all to pieces with some made up "kill 20,000 wights" spell. *grumbles*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

ocato, Animate Dead can only make skeletons and zombies, not Wights.

Always make Skeletons instead of Zombies, you get much better minions for fewer HD.

Buy/borrow a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell (CA), hire an NPC Cleric 11+ with the Deathbound domain (SC) to use the rod to cast Awaken Undead (SC) on everything you've animated, the casting should cost 4550 gp by standard rates, including compensation for the xp cost. The undead will remain under your control, but they'll regain all of their feats, proficiencies, skills, special attacks, and special qualities.

With that available, the best creatures to animate would be Cave Troll (MM3), War Troll (MM3), Arrow Demon (MM3), and Razor Boar (MM2/SRD).

[Ryuuk]

I thought outsiders didn't leave bodies behind. Animating one would be kind of hard.

[Keld Denar]

The stupid dragon is an Ibrandlin, from Monsters of Faerun. 10 HD before zombifying it (so 20 after), so the sorcerer will have to wait a level. Tough, but it loses special attacks from turning into the mindless undead (like the crush), so not too impressive. Gargantuan in size, though, so it's still possible to tell it to "sit" on the annoying people.

Hydra and small dragons as skeletons can be the biggest bang for your buck, since they keep their multiple attacks. Ettins are good here, too. Save zombies for the heavy hitters, or anything you need to fly.

That's the dragon, I thought his crush was an (ex) ability, so he kept it?

Anyway, you were wrong about hydras. They actually make all their attacks with a single standard action, which makes them the BEST zombie. They are beefy and do a bit of damage. Animate one of them as your primary combat pet.

[JackMage666]

I thought outsiders didn't leave bodies behind. Animating one would be kind of hard.

From my understanding, that's only with summoned outsiders, not ones that travel to the material plane by choice.

[Brigham]

I've always been a fan to Brain in a Jar (Libris Mortis). If only animate dead worked in such a way :(

Stick to thinking along the lines of lussmanj and Biffoniacus_Furiou, though.

[tyckspoon]

Dragons make excellent undead pets *if* you can use the Skeletal Dragon and Zombie Dragon templates in Draconomicon (notable traits: retains Dragon-type BAB and saves, Zombie Dragons do not double their HD, Zombie Dragons keep the Breath Attack at lower effectiveness, Skeletal Dragons keep Frightful Presence.) Without those templates, dragons tend to have too many HD for what they do; the normal Skeleton and Zombie templates reduce monsters to little more than meat-or-boneshields, and you can get better deals for the HD. Hydras have already been mentioned, and Giant-type creatures and Pouncing animals are also good.

[BobVosh]

While not necessarily applicable here, I always like Wights. Controlling one wight is not hard. Wight +a crowd of Commoners equals many Wights that are technically in control of the first Wight. So you build a wight-chain for the cost of 4 HD (+class levels if you want) that is eventually big enough that their strength is significantly less important. You tell Wight Prime to command his pretties to do whatever you want them to do and success is had by all.

10,000 wights will level drain a L20 uber character to death eventually. And if not, bring 20,000. All you really have to do is invade enough hamlets, villages, and townships until you have half the population of whatever kingdom roaming the countryside looking for levels to drain.


Will a DM allow this? Rarely if ever. Expect some jerk NPC wizard or something to come carpet bomb them all to pieces with some made up "kill 20,000 wights" spell. *grumbles*

Why cheat? It is so much more statisfying to have some cleric still command of your one wright to rule them all. Or even just kill your 4hd wright and laugh as your swarm of undead go kill you. Then command you.

[Ascension]

From my understanding, that's only with summoned outsiders, not ones that travel to the material plane by choice.

Pretty soon you should know for sure.

[dspeyer]

Off a quick skim of SRD, I would suggest a skeleton cloud giant to deal damage and a zombie Remorhaz for defense. They both have excellent strength and decent dex (the only stats that matter). If I've read the rules correctly, the cloud giant retains its abilities to use oversized manufactured melee weapons and to throw rocks, and the Remorhaz retains its burrow speed. They're also both huge, which helps in getting undead powers. That leaves enough HD for a zombie eagle and zombie owl, and 1 to try to raise a jellyfish skeleton purely for the amusement value.

[Ganurath]

The animate dead templates can be applied to anything with a skeletal structure, not neccesarily an endoskeletal structure. Spider Swarm is 2HD of immunity to weapons and automatic hit. For the airborn division, a zombie bat swarm can be yours for only 3 HD!

[JeminiZero]

Off a quick skim of SRD, I would suggest a skeleton cloud giant to deal damage

I would say that getting the strongest creatrue within core would involve taking one of the giants, and applying the dire were-animal template to them.

E.g. The Hill Giant Dire Wereboar

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The animate dead templates can be applied to anything with a skeletal structure, not neccesarily an endoskeletal structure. Spider Swarm is 2HD of immunity to weapons and automatic hit. For the airborn division, a zombie bat swarm can be yours for only 3 HD!

Awesome. This is why I come to this forum for optimization. The people here have creativity.

Edit: Would Zombie be better with a Swarm? The action limitation wouldn't matter nearly as much, and it would keep flight.

Though would undead swarms retain the swarm traits?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Kill something with negative energy-it automatically rises as a wight (if the template is applicable) after a few nights. Then use command undead on it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Outsiders who arrive via Conjuration (Summoning) return home when "killed" in the same state as they left in, with no loss of hp or ill effects. Outsiders who arrive via Conjuration (Calling) or by any of the various planar traveling spells such as Plane Shift, they actually do die and from what I understand their corpse remains just like any other creature, unless they have some sort of death throes ability which causes them to explode on death.

[Johel]

Though would undead swarms retain the swarm traits?

Why not ? Each undead is still too small to be accounted as an individual and there is no rule against a bunch of tiny zombis sticking together to overwhelm a foe. That and the fact that their creator would not bother giving order to every single one of them.

Let's imagine :
"Ok, zombi rat 10.698 to 10.875, move that way and stand still !! Zombi rat 10.876 to..."
You definitely don't want to treat them as individual servant.

[BobVosh]

I would say that getting the strongest creatrue within core would involve taking one of the giants, and applying the dire were-animal template to them.

E.g. The Hill Giant Dire Wereboar

Don't forget other templates! Like feral. And Celestrial.

[Fan]

We could always find a way to convince the GM to let them be RE zombies.

[Bayar]

Grab Libris Mortis. It gives great variants for zombies/skeletons.

Page 158 begins with some sample skeletons, Page 162 has variant skeletons:
Fiery Skeleton (with the lightning/frost subtypes included), Nimble skeleton, Soldier skeleton, Vicious skeleton. The last one might be the best one.

Page 170 begins the zombie sample section and at page 173 you have the variants: Bloodthirsty, Diseased, Fast, Hunting, Unkillable. Fast and Unkillable are my choices here.

And as a side note, get an Unkillable Zombie Heavy Warhorse. It is good for lulz.

There are a few odd-balls in there, like the warewolf (human commoner) zombie...or corcodile skeleton...

[AslanCross]

Your necrosorc friend should find a way to get a Slaymate (Libris Mortis). Its Pale Aura augments metamagicked Necromancy spells, allowing them to be prepared or cast one level lower than their MM-adjusted level.

Also, having an undead child friend is cool.

[Vexxation]

It is so much more statisfying to have some cleric still command of your one wright to rule them all.

...One Wight, to rule them all...
One Scry to find them
One "Turn" to take them all
And under your will bind them....

[Collin152]

...One Wight, to rule them all...
One Scry to find them
One "Turn" to take them all
And under your will bind them....

Aaaaand now I have to turn over that internet I won.

[dspeyer]

If you apply the half-dragon template to a purple worm, you get a creature with the dragon type. That might mean you can raise it as a zombie using the draconomicon rules (no doubled hd, but a bunch of bonus hit points). That produces a flying, burrowing, gargantuan zombie with a strength of 42 for only 16 hd.

Now if only you could invoke the evolved template ad infinitum...

[arguskos]

Now if only you could invoke the evolved template ad infinitum...

Note that you can. The Evolved template stacks with itself and in fact makes mention of that in it's description (if I recall correctly).

Now, animating something, then giving it the template is probably harder than it seems. However, if you develop a reliable method of applying the template to the above zombie you described (a real beast of a zombie, btw), then you've got a beast of a zombie on your hands...

-argus

[Bayar]

Note that you can. The Evolved template stacks with itself and in fact makes mention of that in it's description (if I recall correctly).

Now, animating something, then giving it the template is probably harder than it seems. However, if you develop a reliable method of applying the template to the above zombie you described (a real beast of a zombie, btw), then you've got a beast of a zombie on your hands...

-argus

Yes, it stacks with itself. A slight problem with this plan though.

1. The undead needs to be inteligent (at least 3 INT) - Use Awaken undead

2. The inteligent undead must have survived for 100 years - Unless all the party members are elves/immortals/also undead, problematic. Very problematic.

3. After he survived for 100 years, roll a 1d100. If the result is 1, then your Undead has a more mature connection to the Negative energy plane AKA it gets the template. If it isnt a 1, then he will have to wait another 100 years (but you will recieve a +1 bonus to the check, meaning you will need to roll a 1 or 2).

4. To add it again, you must wait another 100 years and roll a 1d100 again. If your result is between 1-3 (the original 1, +1 for waiting another 100 years, +1 for having the template once), then you get it again.


So, yeah, to be able to add the template over and over again, you must be immortal. Lichdom just got better ! Become a lich and apply it to yourself !



Yeah, I studied Libris Mortis in my free time, while having a delightful tea party in the local cemetary

[arguskos]

See, I figured the application was the trick (I also forgot the requirements... 100 years... blech).

Though, I can totally see an awakened half-dragon zombie evolvedx4 purple worm as a BITCHIN' BBEG. That's something no one will forget. Esp if you give it the speedy zombie variant... hehehehe....

-argus

[Tar Palantir]

Look at the Corpsecrafter feats. My personal favorite is Destructive Retribution applied to dozens of individually animated rats in a wicker basket launched as a seige weapon. Either way, the feats are brutal, even just basic Corpsecrafter.