Wisdomized Monks

[cloneof]

Hi fellow D20 forumers!

I have a question about 3.5 monk class. It says in the book that Wisdom powers the monks offensive and defensive abilites, but futher it only implyes on extra AC.

So could someone explain me this bit, or do is my 18 score on Wisdom just a waist on monks?

[Mastikator]

The DC of stunning fist is 10 + 1/2 HD + wis mod.

That's it, I think.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Monks are pretty weak, and that's one of the reasons why. Wis does nothing for them other than AC and Stunning Fist, but you can't afford to dump it. If you want my advice, play something else and call it a Monk. I like Unarmed Swordsage from Tome of Battle, though if you take 6 levels of Monk, a Monk's Belt, and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, you get most of the good benefits of a Monk with few wasted levels on the actual class.

[Telonius]

Mastikator has it right. If you use the "Intuitive Attack" feat from Exalted Deeds, your Wisdom will help your attack bonus.

However, if you choose not to take the Stunning Fist feat, there's no reason you can't let WIS be a lesser priority than DEX and STR. There are several Strength-focused Monk builds floating around. Many of them use Power Attack and/or a focus on the Quarterstaff.

[Frosty]

I just let the Monk use WISDOM for to-hit and damage for free. Fixes part of the MAD, letting Str be a dump stat. And I'dlet Monks wear Light Armor.

[Brauron]

One of my DMs had in his world what he called "Ultralight Armor", basically a silk robe of such incredible weave that it gave a +2 armor bonus and could be worn by anyone. He basically gave it to monks for free at character creation.

[Starbuck_II]

I just let the Monk use WISDOM for to-hit and damage for free. Fixes part of the MAD, letting Str be a dump stat. And I'dlet Monks wear Light Armor.

But then the monk won't be as weak. Who else will Complete Samurais make fun of? Truenamers?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But then the monk won't be as weak. Who else will Complete Samurais make fun of? Truenamers?

Even Monks make fun of CW Samurai. Even Ninja's are better, and I would give good odds to a cheesy Truenamer against them.

[Frosty]

Even Monks make fun of CW Samurai.

This can ONLY BE SETTLED BY AN ARENA BATTLE! Make your Samurai at level 9000 with Core and Complete CW only and PREPARE TO FIGHT!!!!1111oneoneEleven.
/joking

On a more serious note. Are you sure Monk is better than Samurai and Truenamer?

[DM Raven]

Vow of Poverty (Exhalted Deeds) is also pretty badass for a monk if you dont expect to acquire many magic items. Though as someone else said, monks are a bit weak overall. Basically they are masters of survival...but thats about it. Nuclear bomb hits, the monks and cockroaches would still be around.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This can ONLY BE SETTLED BY AN ARENA BATTLE! Make your Samurai at level 9000 with Core and Complete CW only and PREPARE TO FIGHT!!!!1111oneoneEleven.
/joking

On a more serious note. Are you sure Monk is better than Samurai and Truenamer?

Samurai is a Fighter, but with suboptimal feats pre-selected. An Expert, Adept, or Magewright could kill it, and a Monk is on the same power level as those. Truenamer is...questionable. With enough cheese and a significant monetary investment, it can hit the DCs on a 1, but I'm not sure how good their spells are.

VoP makes weak classes worse. A Druid, Sorcerer, or Cloistered Cleric loses little through VoP. A Monk becomes useless.

[Spiryt]

Samurai is a Fighter, but with suboptimal feats pre-selected.

And with less number of those feats, with completely pointless "scary" abilities, with free TWF, which is terribly delayed.Not only TWF is hard to make even a bit worth it, but he get's Improved TWF on 11th level, if I recal well... WTF?

And his one quite decent ability Kai Smite (or something like that) doesn't even stack with this lame TWF.

Seriously what were they smoking while writing that? Maybe author hates all samurai/katana archetypes and decided to harm players who want to play Samurai.
That's conspiracy theory, but always some theory.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And with less number of those feats, with completely pointless "scary" abilities, with free TWF, which is terribly delayed.Not only TWF is hard to make even a bit worth it, but he get's Improved TWF on 11th level, if I recal well... WTF?

And his one quite decent ability Kai Smite (or something like that) doesn't even stack with this lame TWF.

Seriously what were they smoking while writing that? Maybe author hates all samurai/katana archetypes and decided to harm players who want to play Samurai.
That's conspiracy theory, but always some theory.

Hey, it makes more sense than believing it was meant to be a playable class.

[Telonius]

VoP makes weak classes worse. A Druid, Sorcerer, or Cloistered Cleric loses little through VoP. A Monk becomes useless.

True, except in low-treasure or low-magic situations. VoP becomes more powerful as wealth becomes less available. In the usual (for most players) campaign, VoP is a bad idea.

[Prometheus]

Nuclear bomb hits, the monks and cockroaches would still be around.

Dwarven Defenders and Rogues with improved evasion have a decent chance, but that's considering either wants to live in a world of monks and cochroaches.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dwarven Defenders and Rogues with improved evasion have a decent chance, but that's considering either wants to live in a world of monks and cochroaches.

When Tippy summons 50' of Antimatter, only those with both Evasion and a way of surviving in the depths of space will survive, and then only if they nat 20. Monks, Rogues, Rangers, Swordsages, and a few others are the only ones, and only Warforged or those with VoP or a Necklace of Adaptation. Of those, I expect Rogues, with luck feats and wealth far in excess of WBL to be the ones who prosper as the others die.

Oh, and Batman Wizards. They always survive.

[thegurullamen]

Oh, and Batman Wizards. They always survive.

Anyone with any form of divination and planar travel, really. (I imagine such an event would cause even the lowest level divinations like True Strike to reveal the big event and make the caster want to get off the plane right the f*** now.)

[Chronos]

On a more serious note. Are you sure Monk is better than Samurai and Truenamer?

Monk is certainly better than Samurai. The monk does at least have a few things it does better than anyone else... The problem is just that the things it does better than anyone else aren't particularly useful things to do. A samurai, though, is just a fighter in a straightjacket, and a poorly-fitting straightjacket at that.

Truenamers are a bit more complicated to analyze. The DCs for Perfected Map utterances are achievable with only a reasonable level of optimization, though, so they do have some useful things they can do a few times per day, which is better than the monk's 1/week most powerful ability. So truenamers probably are more powerful than monks. Most of the reason they look so much weaker is that people usually compare truenamers to other spellcasters, while they compare monks to other melee classes: The weakest of the spellcasters is still better than the weakest of the front-liners.

Of those, I expect Rogues, with luck feats and wealth far in excess of WBL to be the ones who prosper as the others die.

A rogue should be just as in line with WBL as anyone else. It just works the other way: Most folks gain levels, and the DM should give them wealth to stay in line with their level. Rogues gain wealth, and the DM should give them levels to stay in line with their wealth. A locked, trapped, and guarded treasure vault is a perfectly valid encounter, and successfully robbing it is defeating the encounter.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A rogue should be just as in line with WBL as anyone else. It just works the other way: Most folks gain levels, and the DM should give them wealth to stay in line with their level. Rogues gain wealth, and the DM should give them levels to stay in line with their wealth. A locked, trapped, and guarded treasure vault is a perfectly valid encounter, and successfully robbing it is defeating the encounter.

This I disagree with. A party of adventurers will generally split the loot equally, but a Rogue member of the party will spend time, in character, trying to get a larger share than the party. That will put him out of line with the other party members, so how do you propose the DM react?

[Demons_eye]

And the sad thing is that a monk in a online game (like DnD online or WoW) Would stomp a lot of other classes.

More speed
Damge with out weapon
No need for armor
ect...

[monty]

This can ONLY BE SETTLED BY AN ARENA BATTLE! Make your Samurai at level 9000 with Core and Complete CW only and PREPARE TO FIGHT!!!!1111oneoneEleven.
/joking

Only 9000? Not OVER NINE THOUSAND?!?!?!

Also, if you're worried about monk's MAD, you might consider the Kung Fu Genius feat from one of the Dragon magazines. All monk abilities are based on Int instead of Wis.

[Project_Mayhem]

And the sad thing is that a monk in a online game (like DnD online or WoW) Would stomp a lot of other classes.

They're normally pretty good, its just Dnd that screws 'em over. I like the monk on nethack. And the FF ones range from OK, to Awesome, to Sabin. Bum Rush!

[Swooper]

This I disagree with. A party of adventurers will generally split the loot equally, but a Rogue member of the party will spend time, in character, trying to get a larger share than the party. That will put him out of line with the other party members, so how do you propose the DM react?

What, so you have to be greedy just because you're a rogue? Honestly, you disappoint me!

[Tengu_temp]

True, except in low-treasure or low-magic situations. VoP becomes more powerful as wealth becomes less available. In the usual (for most players) campaign, VoP is a bad idea.

DND's already brittle balance lies in assumption that people will get their WBL, or similar amounts of items (note that lack of magic items and gold hurts non-casting classes much more than spellcasters). People who want to DM a low-magic game, but everything they do is take standard DND and give players much less wealth than they should, deserve all the havoc VoP monks and (especially) druids bring to their campaign.

[ericgrau]

Stop! No! Direct general monk discusssion elsewhere!

Hi fellow D20 forumers!

I have a question about 3.5 monk class. It says in the book that Wisdom powers the monks offensive and defensive abilites, but futher it only implyes on extra AC.

So could someone explain me this bit, or do is my 18 score on Wisdom just a waist on monks?

Yes, an 18 wis is a total waste on monks. Wis is less important than dex for a monk (which does more), dex is less important than con and con is less important than strength. Wis isn't even up there. Put just a little in wis and wait until the far future to get more via items.

[Project_Mayhem]

Stop! No! Direct general monk discusssion elsewhere!

Sorry

I just like Sabin is all ...

[Zeful]

This I disagree with. A party of adventurers will generally split the loot equally, but a Rogue member of the party will spend time, in character, trying to get a larger share than the party. That will put him out of line with the other party members, so how do you propose the DM react?

If he's tricking the other characters it's their fault. If he's going out on his own to rob people. Well...

A locked, trapped, and guarded treasure vault is a perfectly valid encounter, and successfully robbing it is defeating the encounter.

[Tengu_temp]

Sorry

I just like Sabin is all ...

Calling Sabin a DND monk is offensive. If anything, he'd be a Swordsage.

[ericgrau]

Sorry

I just like Sabin is all ...

Don't take me too seriously..

At least you brought up something original (Sabin). That much is a perfectly valid tangent if there is such a thing. I'm just tired of people debating the merits of the monk class every time someone asks, "Hey, I'm playing a monk, should I wear brown robes or white robes?" or the like.

What we need is a general monk discussion thread, followed by a mark II, III, IV, etc. That way people have a place to vent their nerd rage, and others with more specific questions can get specific answers. I mean, I was seriously tempted to go off on one of the tangents, then I deleted what I wrote in light of the self-contradiction. It's insiduous I tell you!

[FMArthur]

Every time I begin think that facepalm is a cliche ruined by internet memes, monk threads that cause me to literally do a facepalm every other post appear and I realize that it is not a joke.

I really don't think that those kinds of monk threads are a good idea to keep up, since it just develops hostilities (that will not stay in the thread) that otherwise would never have appeared.

OP: Well, the swordsage is an oft-cited monk replacement, but what does everyone think about monk-based PrCs that get out of the class ASAP anyway?