New Gestalt Campaign

[Tormsskull]

Hi all,

So two of my usual players and myself are starting up a second campaign, mainly because we like to play more often than the full group does, and because it gives the other players a chance to be in the DM seat. I suggested we used the Gestalt concept since there is only going to be 3 characters (2 players, 1 rotating DMPC depending on who is DMing at the time).

I don't know the rules on Gestalt 100%, but what we decided to do was select 1 'main' class, and 1 'secondary' class. You get the best of both classes in regards to BAB, saves, skill points, and class skills. You get both classes' special abilities and restrictions (except alignment).

Your main class is the one that you must follow the alignment restrictions for, your secondary class is basically additional abilities/whatevers that you picked up.

Ok, so that out of the way, the characters are:

Cleric//Barbarian
Rogue//Wizard
Paladin//Bard

I'm the Paladin//Bard (Human, nationality Khinasi) and my character worships Avani (Birthright Deity). The Khinasi as a people do not fear magic, in fact one of their greatest leaders was a mage. However, they do really institutionalize arcane magic, requiring mages to take an oath in a temple to Avani to use magic responsibly. The church of Avani trains its paladins to seek out and defeat/destroy mages who use their arcane magic for evil.

Keeping in mind that this is a core only campaign:

1. Any recommendations for skills/feats to take to reinforce my concept?
2. I'm not experienced with Gestalt, is there anything I should be worried about / look out for? Keep in mind that the other two players never read D&D websites and their idea of optimization is basically making Strength a high stat.
3. Any other input/suggestions?

[only1doug]

If you have all agreed to the concept i don't think there is anything to concern yourself with, just play it and have fun.

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for a paladin // bard charisma is your optimiser stat :P

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you already knew that though

[Sstoopidtallkid]

For 3 non-optimizers going Gestalt for the first time, those are surprisingly good. The Cleric can't cast while Raging, but you have every role covered, no overlap on any of the characters, and no MAD. See if you can get Paladin spellcasting switched over to Cha, and try to snag some non-core feats. Either Lingering Song or Versatile Performer would enable you to drop a group buff or 2 first round, then fight the rest of the battle. Aim for Swift Action spells, and you should be good.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Paladin//Bard is a surprisingly good choice. Bard makes up for the poor Reflex save, gives much-needed skill points, and you can make performance checks without needing to worry about ASF all you want.

Now, I do suggest keeping to Chain Shirt for armor, as you start getting ASF penalties if you go any heavier. There IS a feat, although non-core, which lets Bards cast in medium armor, which means Mithral Full Plate, if you want to go that route later on, when you can afford it.

Jack up your Charisma, that's your casting stat for Bard, and your bonus to saves.

[Eldariel]

Well, reflavouring it a bit, a nice way to marry your martial ability (that of a Paladin) and Bardic ability would be the Snowflake Wardance (from Frostburn). It allows you to burn Bardic Music to gain Charisma to attack (really helps with the traditional stat issues Paladins encounter, and can be very flavorful). Also, Inspire Courage is obviously awesome for a melee combatant (I'd focus on making it all the more awesome), so I'd try to increase those bonuses if at all possible (Badge of Valor (item), Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings], Words of Creation [Book of Exalted Deeds - works fine for an exemplar of good such as a Paladin], etc.). Inspire Greatness as well - those abilities should present a natural bridge between Paladin and Bard (how do you resolve the alignment-conflict, btw? Bards can't be Lawful, Paladins have to be? Variant Paladin or handweave?).

I'd also get Battle Blessing [Complete Champion] a bit into the game so the Paladin spellcasting isn't completely useless (it allows you to cast Paladin-spells as a Swift Action - gives you something to do with them and works fine as "channeling divine energy to your attacks"). This probably also would suggest the Melodic Casting-feat [Complete Mage], which allows you to cast spells while performing for Bardic Music.


The feat that allows casting in medium armor is Battlecaster [Complete Arcane] and definitely is something to pick up if you plan on the traditional "Knight in a Shining Armor"-image as it actually allows you to wear full body armor without ACF.

Also note that if you go high, the Bard-size may want to specialize. Combat Medic is great if you want more healer's abilities, Sublime Chord improves your arcane casting and Virtuoso would improve your bardic music. It's not necessary by any stretch of imagination, but definitely an option to keep in mind.

[Prometheus]

It sounded like he was more concerned about DMing practices than character builds...

I assume you are starting at level 1 with no LA or monster HD. However, it seems to be the opinion of the boards that the ECL system is a lot more balanced with Gestalt if the LA and HD each only take up one side (and you are allowed to have them on the same side or both sides).

Other than that I would just follow the concerns in the UA book about CRs and various monsters which may be more difficult for new DMs if they don't know to account for it.

[Wolfpack]

1) Everyone, he pretty much was just asking for Core help with his build, not all that other stuff, which he presumably doesn't have access to (since there is no other reason to have a Core only game.)

2) OP: 1) Sorry, you are out of luck. There is nothing in core to flesh out that archetype.
2) Casting in Rage, as was mentioned is all there is to worry about. And be sure to use more enemies of the same level as yourself instead of 1 big enemy, since you won't have the attack bonus to hit it or the HP to survive sometimes.

[Proven_Paradox]

Core only, there isn't much to hammer that concept home unfortunately.

If you could spring for some non-core feats, the bardic music feats already mentioned are good. Anyone who wants to have a "trained to fight mages" flavor might look into mage slayer, though for your specific build, the CL penalty might be enough for you to reconsider. If you want to get more use from your paladin spells, consider battle blessing.

But again, that's all non-core. If you're strictly core-only, just take whatever you want; there aren't many good options for you.

[Keld Denar]

Man, core only? Ouch, this combo is killer in non-gestalt with the right materials from outside of core. Hmmmm, core only...

Power Attack and a 2hander. Mayve a metamagic rod of Lesser Quicken asap, as this'll expand your casting options. Other than that, take good feats like Improved Initiative and maybe something like Spell Focus Enchantment for your bardic charms.

Blah, so much wasted potential to go all Dragonfire Inspiration + Divine Might...so good....

[Hal]

The problem you're going to have is that, restricted to core, this class suffers some serious MAD. Outside of core, your ability to apply Charisma to Atk and Dmg through various feats and pieces of equipment means that you can mainly focus on getting that up and running, and maybe some Wisdom for your Paladin casting.

Core only, your stats are going to be divided in an ugly way.

If I could make ANY suggestion, it would be to trade Bard for something like Sorcerer or Druid. You will still have a good deal of MAD, but at least you're trading that for full spellcasting, which should mitigate the lack of combat boosting you get from non-core material for the Bardadin.

[Tormsskull]

Now, I do suggest keeping to Chain Shirt for armor, as you start getting ASF penalties if you go any heavier.

That's what I did so far. We are level 1 so I my 2 0th level bard spells I'm not too worried about. Even in further levels, I'm thinking my bardic magic might be used specifically for non-combat means, and therefore I may eventually go to heavy armor. Depends on what we find and such.

(how do you resolve the alignment-conflict, btw? Bards can't be Lawful, Paladins have to be? Variant Paladin or handweave?).

As I mentioned in the OP, the way we did it is that you take the alignment restrictions of your 'main' class. In this case my main class is Paladin, so I am Lawful Good. Then the secondary class is basically additional abilities/tricks you picked up.

I decided that my bardic music would take the form of religious oratory. My Paladin will recite passages from the holy book of Avani, ask for Avani's blessing, etc.

It sounded like he was more concerned about DMing practices than character builds...

Yeah. I'm the DM with the most experience, so these guys are going to default to me if something really odd pops up. And since I was the one suggesting Gestalt in the first place I figured I should do my research on it.

2) OP: 1) Sorry, you are out of luck. There is nothing in core to flesh out that archetype.

Hmm. Really? I selected Skill Focus UMD and Magical Aptitude to represent my character's affinity for magic. Coupled with being able to use divine magic (later) and arcane bard magic, it seemed like a good way to flesh out the "not afraid of magic/embrace magic" part. I also took skills in Spellcraft, Knowledge, Decipher Script, and knowledge Religion.

Now I just need to somehow flesh out the "seeks out and defeats/destroys evil magic users" part a bit more.

Core only, your stats are going to be divided in an ugly way.

We rolled stats, and I ended up with insane stats overall. I think it was +11 all around. Since this was higher than the other 2 players we bumped them up. Now we are all sitting around +10 on average.

Its much higher stats than I am used to playing, but I figure with only 3 characters we will probably need it.


Thanks for all the input everyone!

[Hal]

Hmm. Really? I selected Skill Focus UMD and Magical Aptitude to represent my character's affinity for magic. Coupled with being able to use divine magic (later) and arcane bard magic, it seemed like a good way to flesh out the "not afraid of magic/embrace magic" part. I also took skills in Spellcraft, Knowledge, Decipher Script, and knowledge Religion.

Now I just need to somehow flesh out the "seeks out and defeats/destroys evil magic users" part a bit more.

So, in non-core material, there are a few ways this build usually plays out:

1) Take Snowflake Wardance and Divine Might. This gets you your charisma bonus to both attack and damage. You have to wield a one-handed slashing weapon (longsword, typically), but you're getting at least +4 to your combat stats. Now combine with some smiting goodness and you'll start multiplying that benefit.

2) Take any number of feats and equipment which boosts the bonus from Inspire Courage. I don't know the particulars off hand, but you can get something like +6 by 6th level, and that bonus doesn't just apply to you. Some people prefer to work in Dragonfire Inspiration, which changes it to no attack bonus by makes the damage bonus into a d6 of fire damage for each point IC would normally grant.

Mix and match according to preference. Without any of that, you have two classes which aren't terrible, but they're not full spell casters. Core Paladin spells aren't very helpful (and progress too slowly) and core Bard spells are not suited to a combat specialist.

[Duke of URL]

I'm not experienced with Gestalt, is there anything I should be worried about / look out for? Keep in mind that the other two players never read D&D websites and their idea of optimization is basically making Strength a high stat.

The most common pitfall in gestalt is trying to do too many things at once -- gestalt offers additional options, but does not increase the number of available actions. As such, the most common general advice is to make one side of your progression your "active" side and the other your "passive" side, where the latter is more focused on class features that do not require actions to use.

Of course, you can blend the sides, but that requires more careful balancing. Still, it looks like you guys are pretty well set for core-only.

[Draz74]

Rogue//Wizard
[snip]
their idea of optimization is basically making Strength a high stat.

I hope this was hyperbole. I do not want to see a Rogue//Wizard who tries to be a powerful character by putting his highest stat in STR.

[monty]

The most common pitfall in gestalt is trying to do too many things at once -- gestalt offers additional options, but does not increase the number of available actions. As such, the most common general advice is to make one side of your progression your "active" side and the other your "passive" side, where the latter is more focused on class features that do not require actions to use.

Of course, you can blend the sides, but that requires more careful balancing. Still, it looks like you guys are pretty well set for core-only.

Or you could take Factotum//Something. Then you have plenty of actions.

[Draz74]

Or you could take Factotum//Something. Then you have plenty of actions.

Only if you're willing to spend all of your feats on Font of Inspiration, despite the fact that this:

• is boring
• is cheesy
• requires your DM to allow content from the Internet
• leaves your "something" half with no feats to work with

[Duke of URL]

Or you could take Factotum//Something. Then you have plenty of actions.

Yeah, but that's a function of factotum, not a function of gestalt.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Only if you're willing to spend all of your feats on Font of Inspiration, despite the fact that this:

• is boring
• is cheesy
• requires your DM to allow content from the Internet
• leaves your "something" half with no feats to work with

Not really. Depending on level, you can get a few bonus actions as well as Int to Init and to-hit, without touching FoI once. I like comboing it with a Warblade for massive melee damage, repeatedly, in one round.

[Draz74]

Not really. Depending on level, you can get a few bonus actions as well as Int to Init and to-hit, without touching FoI once. I like comboing it with a Warblade for massive melee damage, repeatedly, in one round.

Oh, I love Factotum for Gestalt. It just doesn't give you "plenty of extra actions" unless you focus on FoI.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Oh, I love Factotum for Gestalt. It just doesn't give you "plenty of extra actions" unless you focus on FoI.

Depends on what you mean by "plenty". I think about 2 extra actions, plus 4 points for actual use, good enough at level 10 when you have other stuff you're actually doing on those actions. Most fights aren't that long.

[monty]

On a completely unrelated note, wouldn't the plural of factotum be "factota"?

[Frosty]

Doesn't Snowflake Wardance make you Fatigued for the rest of the day or something? I'm not sure I like that. I guess I can be a Warforged Snowflake Dancer or something

[monty]

If you do that, your wardance has to resemble the Robot in some way.