oWoD vs. nWoD and why

[Lord Tataraus]

I'm relatively new to the WoD, but I have seen this debate before I actually got into it. I've heard various reasonings for why oWoD is better or why nWoD is better, but never really understood, but now with my still limited, but secure understanding of nWoD I think I can understand the reasoning of this debate so I ask you, which version do you prefer and why? I've heard nWoD is more balanced in crossover at least when compared to oWoD (especially in the case of Werewolf) and I've heard that nWoD Mage and Vampire are blasphemies in the extreme, or too restrictive in the less extreme case, what do you guys think?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, after listening to folks on the thread I made that asked this very question, it seems like I'd like oWoD because I was never much for "crossover" games. Every setting in oWoD had its own aesthetics, and depending on the sort of game I was interested in, that's the one I'd play.

Mystic Investigation was done best by Mage; political intrigue was done best by Vampire; Captain Planet was done best by Werewolf; Survival Horror was done best by Hunter; Goofy was done best by Changeling; Angst was done best by Wraith.

Considering how much variety is within each book, and how much similarity is between the books (Proud warrior guy? Are we talking Brujah or Get of Fenris? Lone Survivalist? Gangrel or Red Talon? ) that I didn't see much to be added by doing a mixed game.

I appreciate that nWoD does a better job of unifying the WoD Mythos, but I think it does it at the sacrifice of any distinctiveness that made me want to play the game in the first place.

Oh, and the nWoD fluff sucks - or so I heard

[DeathQuaker]

I'm relatively new to the WoD, but I have seen this debate before I actually got into it. I've heard various reasonings for why oWoD is better or why nWoD is better, but never really understood, but now with my still limited, but secure understanding of nWoD I think I can understand the reasoning of this debate so I ask you, which version do you prefer and why? I've heard nWoD is more balanced in crossover at least when compared to oWoD (especially in the case of Werewolf) and I've heard that nWoD Mage and Vampire are blasphemies in the extreme, or too restrictive in the less extreme case, what do you guys think?

Generally, nWoD's core mechanic is an improved version of nWoD's---particularly, combat is simplified to a single die roll or so and makes things go much faster. So when just looking at basic mechanics, nWoD has a leg up on oWoD--which makes sense, since it's the newer verison of the system.

nWoD was also designed, specifically, to HANDLE crossovers. nWoD has this nice central core rulebook to build humans with, and then you can branch out as you like. This again was done in response to oWod....

The problem w/ oWoD and crossovers is that each game (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc.) were essentially designed as separate games that shared the same universe. The systems were SIMILAR, but each game contained different mechanics (Werewolf Gifts worked totally differently from Mage Magic, etc.); different character sheets even listed different skills (so in some cases, you couldn't have properly contested rolls). The PROBLEM was with the shared universe, people always wanted to try to cross the games over, which then resulted in crazy balance. Rather than, therefore, try to keep saying, "Don't cross the games over", White Wolf just redesigned the system to have a more solid core mechanic so you could handle crossovers more efficiently.

My understanding where the only place this has FAILED is Mage: the Awakening... they designed a specific mechanic for magic which apparently just doesn't work very well, and not even the splats help too much. It's not clear and causes rules arguments.

This is not to say oWoD's mechanics don't work... they're decent, and if you avoid lots of mega crossover, running oWoD games are lots of fun.

Otherwise, the arguments about oWoD and nWoD come down to which has the better fluff---which all comes down to personal preference for the most part. oWoD and nWoD have different world histories and factions, etc. Some prefer (or are used to) oWoD's; some like nWoD's better. Some feel they're both great, just different stories.

Again, the only place where I've heard major complaints is Mage: the Ascension vs. Mage: the Awakening. "Ascension" was built on this idea of personal philosophy and paradigm, and the magic system was very flexible to reflect this. "Awakening" has a more unified background, which makes it easier to grasp but loses a lot of its variability.... in "Ascension" you could be a mega-virtual-hacker, a Scientist!!!, a pagan witch, a faith healer and all work under the same system.... in "Awakening" you're... a mage. A sort of vaguely Hermetic-ish, Ars Magica-sorta inspired mage. And that's it. And combined with its frustrating magic system, it gets a lot of flack for being more limited compared to its predecessor.

But by comparison... for something where nWoD is generally praised over oWoD, look at Changeling. oWoD Changeling was a cool idea, but making sure everyone understood the "mechanics" of the Dreaming at the same level was difficult. The concept was cool, but the two identities at once thing was not well handled by all. Comparatively, nWoD Changeling still has a very cool (but different) concept well-founded in our own faerie folklore, but it's backed up by much clearer mechanics and concepts that don't devolve into philosophical arguments that obstruct gameplay.

After all, if you want philosophical arguments, do it where it ADDs to gameplay and play Mage: the Ascension.

[puppyavenger]

Well, after listening to folks on the thread I made that asked this very question, it seems like I'd like oWoD because I was never much for "crossover" games. Every setting in oWoD had its own aesthetics, and depending on the sort of game I was interested in, that's the one I'd play.

Mystic Investigation was done best by Mage; political intrigue was done best by Vampire; Captain Planet was done best by Werewolf; Survival Horror was done best by Hunter; Goofy was done best by Changeling; Angst was done best by Wraith.

Considering how much variety is within each book, and how much similarity is between the books (Proud warrior guy? Are we talking Brujah or Get of Fenris? Lone Survivalist? Gangrel or Red Talon? ) that I didn't see much to be added by doing a mixed game.

I appreciate that nWoD does a better job of unifying the WoD Mythos, but I think it does it at the sacrifice of any distinctiveness that made me want to play the game in the first place.

Oh, and the nWoD fluff sucks - or so I heard

only mages...

ATLANTIS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

but yeah, vampires a lot vaguer, changelings a lot darker, and normal humans actually have a chance at killing the vampire.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well, after listening to folks on the thread I made that asked this very question...

As long as the RPGs grow in popularity you'll always have this repeat threads.

And yeah, I didn't touch on the Mage arguments I've heard...I have Awakening and it is interesting, I actually kind of like the fluff of it, but I've still yet to truly figure out the magic system...

[Krrth]

Personally, I enjoy NWoD more. It runns a lot smoother, and while I had grown to love the old fluff, the OWoD was starting to get a little top heavy. IMO, it was starting to get smothered under it's own weight.

I also happen to like the NWoD vampire and mage. It just takes a little getting used to the name changes.

[Tellah]

After all, if you want philosophical arguments, do it where it ADDs to gameplay and play Mage: the Ascension.

I prefer to run Mage: The Awakening, cut out the Paths, allow the players to choose their ruling and inferior arcana freely, and ignore every reference to Atlantis in the book. Also, use Creative Thaumaturgy more than pre-made spells. Better mechanics, faster combat, all the philosophy and strangeness of oMage without the ability to solve every problem with Mind 5.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I prefer to run Mage: The Awakening, cut out the Paths, allow the players to choose their ruling and inferior arcana freely, and ignore every reference to Atlantis in the book. Also, use Creative Thaumaturgy more than pre-made spells. Better mechanics, faster combat, all the philosophy and strangeness of oMage without the ability to solve every problem with Mind 5.

Hey, some problems could be solved with Forces 3, Prime 2!

[NeoVid]

I got in to RPGs with old Mage, and I prefer the nWoD, since the mechanics are just so much better that it's much easier to actually do what you want and have fun. Also, there's no metaplot that has the chance of negating what your PCs do since it's incompatible with the setting's storyline.

And my favorite game in the nWoD wasn't even in oWoD, so there's that. But, then, I am the only gamer I know of who usually likes new editions.

All the posters have brought up good points. Particularly about how Mage is the most complicated of the systems. If you play it, it really helps to have a veteran player in your group who knows the mechanics. Though there's a limit... My current ST says I'm not allowed to bring in a mage to his next game.

Heh... this reminds me that I was looking forward to the new Vampire when I heard about it, even though I didn't like old Vampire, since I was hoping the old Vampire fans would hate it and refuse to play it, which would solve the biggest problem I had with the game.

.... in "Ascension" you could be a mega-virtual-hacker, a Scientist!!!, a pagan witch, a faith healer and all work under the same system....

I have seen all those concepts played in the current game, though now it's more a matter of Legacy instead of Paradigm. Remember, it does have several years worth of sourcebooks to give you more to work with by now...

[TheElfLord]

I like the oWoD better for a very simple reason. I have lots of oWoD books. My friends have even more. We have a great collection of published material and we don't want to start all over again. It wasn't economical for us to make the switchover.

[Innis Cabal]

oWoD, for a couple reasons

1. Nothing has ever trumped the awsomeness of Mummy
2. The mechanics are smoother and nicer in nWoD ya...but they feel like they've lost so much...I dont know what it is, but they just feel...hollow
3. Much like the above, the whole setting feels watered down

[mostlyharmful]

Hey, some problems could be solved with Forces 3, Prime 2!

Or Spirit 2, Prime 2 for the descerning conesour of game-world-ganking

[Oracle_Hunter]

Or Spirit 2, Prime 2 for the descerning conesour of game-world-ganking

My favorite was a Life 4 attack to shrivel the vocal chords of the deranged Celestial Choruser we were fighting. This was by my Pacifist Verbana

Did I mention that I used Mind 4 to subtly convert my fellow PCs to veganism?

[mostlyharmful]

My favorite was a Life 4 attack to shrivel the vocal chords of the deranged Celestial Choruser we were fighting. This was by my Pacifist Verbana

Did I mention that I used Mind 4 to subtly convert my fellow PCs to veganism?

Ooooo... Mindraping your friends for minor ethical beanies... Yeah, definately my kind of mage game. Personally I'm in favour of exploitation of the summoning rules to have incarnate Gods do all your face-beating for you.

[DeathQuaker]

I have seen all those concepts played in the current game, though now it's more a matter of Legacy instead of Paradigm. Remember, it does have several years worth of sourcebooks to give you more to work with by now...

That's good. I was just repeating generally what the sense was/what is often discussed when comparing the systems, not endorsing one over the other. And splats probably haven't been taken into account in a lot of these discussions. Mage the Awakening seems especially controversial, to say the least.

Generally, seems like most folks like nWoD a lot, except Awakening, which is YMMV.

[Thrud]

My favorite was a Life 4 attack to shrivel the vocal chords of the deranged Celestial Choruser we were fighting. This was by my Pacifist Verbana

Did I mention that I used Mind 4 to subtly convert my fellow PCs to veganism?

Bah, everything can be solved with Spirit 5, the most powerful sphere in existence. I mean, hey, who else has the ability to say 'you suck, you are a mage no more. I destroy your avatar'



In all seriousness though, I always loved playing dreamspeakers. I think Spirit is the coolest sphere. Give yourself 1 dot in mind so you can countermagic every mind effect directed your way, then Free the Mad Howlers on his ass. Who else gets to do massive amounts of Agg without needing to involve Prime 2?

Of course, there is the minor problem of it being vulgar as hell when you bind spirits inside someone you don't like and they rip their way out of him. Still, with spirit you can make fetishes (who needs prime to make talismans. I can just bind a spirit), deal massive combat damage when necessary, transport yourself to the spirit world and use it to get quickly from one side of the world to the other using Moonpaths, duplicate forces effects by summoning elemental spirits, duplicate life effects by summoning spirits with healing charms, and oh yes, destroy your avatar so that you are no longer a Mage.

Personally I never understood the whole 'Mind is too powerful' schtick people have with mage. If you think Mind is too powerful, you never really looked at just how disgusting spirit is. In my opinion it is Spirit that is WAY too powerful.

Fun though.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Personally I never understood the whole 'Mind is too powerful' schtick people have with mage. If you think Mind is too powerful, you never really looked at just how disgusting spirit is. In my opinion it is Spirit that is WAY too powerful.

The thing with Mind is that there's really nothing stopping it.

Spirit had to deal with the Gauntlet, which was usually pretty high... and the stated successes needed for most effects were ridiculous, if you played RAW.

Forces, Life, and Matter were usually pretty vulgar.

Correspondence and Entropy were typically only indirectly helpful - they usually didn't solve problems on their own..

Time and Prime didn't really do anything on their own - well, not in a "problem solving" sense; you always needed to combine them with something else..

Mind though? Mind was always Coincidental and could affect anything with a mind. Plus, Mind 1 was ridiculously overpowered (it allowed you to Multitask and have Photographic Memory!). There was literally nothing stopping it, unless you only fought Mind Shielded NWO constructs or "mindless" Iteration-X bots... or other Mind Mages.

God, I really should homebrew up a simple, decent system for oWoD Mage. The only real problem with magic was that the system was too disjointed... I bet if I spent a few hours combing the book I could simplify it nicely.

[Thrud]

The thing with Mind is that there's really nothing stopping it.

Mind though? Mind was always Coincidental and could affect anything with a mind. Plus, Mind 1 was ridiculously overpowered (it allowed you to Multitask and have Photographic Memory!). There was literally nothing stopping it, unless you only fought Mind Shielded NWO constructs or "mindless" Iteration-X bots... or other Mind Mages.

Or any mage with a single dot in it using countermagic. Countermagic tends to trump a lot of things. Plus, it doesn't matter if everything you use is coincidental. Yes, you get to do a lot of stuff. But it only takes the one guy doing something horribly vulgar and paying for it later to kill you off when you try to mess with his head.

At least that is what always seemed to happen in our games when the Mind 5 orphan in the group tried to mess with other people's heads. Yes, sometimes you can get away with it and it is coincidental, and that is great. Other times the guy has some awareness, can sense you using magic on him, can counter it, and decides to unload the big guns on you before you can mess with his head more.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Or any mage with a single dot in it using countermagic. Countermagic tends to trump a lot of things. Plus, it doesn't matter if everything you use is coincidental. Yes, you get to do a lot of stuff. But it only takes the one guy doing something horribly vulgar and paying for it later to kill you off when you try to mess with his head.

At least that is what always seemed to happen in our games when the Mind 5 orphan in the group tried to mess with other people's heads. Yes, sometimes you can get away with it and it is coincidental, and that is great. Other times the guy has some awareness, can sense you using magic on him, can counter it, and decides to unload the big guns on you before you can mess with his head more.

Ugh, I never got the counterspelling rules to work right for me.

So, while that's true, you just don't get the same sort of Paradox concerns the other spheres have, nor is using it on sleepers Vulgar. Those two facets let you do a lot with Mind... though I do recall the one Hermetic who managed to cast nothing but Vulgar spells for an entire adventure without once 'doxing. At the end of the adventure, I made him make one more check, to see if he'd get his comeuppance.

He did

[Tellah]

I do recall the one Hermetic who managed to cast nothing but Vulgar spells for an entire adventure without once 'doxing. At the end of the adventure, I made him make one more check, to see if he'd get his comeuppance.

He did

This story makes me want to ST Mage so bad I can't stand it!

[Oracle_Hunter]

This story makes me want to ST Mage so bad I can't stand it!

Set up a PbP and I'm totally in.

[Thrud]

Heh, wish I had enough time to play something like that.

Heh, had a great paradox flaw once on a mage who REALLY messed up badly and overlapped quint and 'dox on the 'ol circle of doom. I created a paradox spirit I called 'The Judge' who looked like a huge judge with a white wig and a giant gavel who showed up and started smiting him with the gavel shouting 'YOU SIR, ARE OUT OF ORDER'. Heh, guess I watched The Wall one time too many.

He managed to survive that (and yes, it was a pretty epic battle that toally derailed the whole session.) but from then on I had a little wooden hammer with a piece of wood, and every time he gained a 'dox I would tap on it gently for a while telling him he was the only one who could hear it.

Damn I had fun with that.

[DeathQuaker]

Spirit had to deal with the Gauntlet, which was usually pretty high... and the stated successes needed for most effects were ridiculous, if you played RAW

.

One of the reasons that when I used 3rd ed rules, I ignored most of this. *I* had a very active spirit world and Shadowlands, and I didn't appreciate White Wolf blowing it up and making affect the gameworld mechanically. It totally messed up my campaign and what worked perfectly with the rules suddenly required tons of homebrewing if you wanted to switch to the revised ruleset (which apart from the Spirit rules, was desirable).

Fact, I think Mage 3rd was the last WoD book I ever paid money for that reason (and only other White Wolf book I ever bought since was a Castebook for 1st Ed Exalted).

Now, mildly playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

Forces, Life, and Matter were usually pretty vulgar.

Depends very much on the effect. The clever mage could do some cool things with all of these and not be vulgar. Fireballs down main street, sure, vulgar as heck. Oh, that electric line dropped and fried you? What a strange coincidence....

Correspondence and Entropy were typically only indirectly helpful - they usually didn't solve problems on their own..

Um..... being able to manipulate probability itself is pretty freaking powerful.

Time and Prime didn't really do anything on their own - well, not in a "problem solving" sense;

I consider being capable of stopping, speeding, or slowing time itself a good solution to a lot of problems.

you always needed to combine them with something else..

Yes, but oh the things you could do with those combinations!!

Mind though? Mind was always Coincidental and could affect anything with a mind.

Mind was not always necessarily Coincidental, depending on if someone realized they were being messed with (which was a possibility at least in the Mage games I played... WIllpower rolls and other things. But that may have been a Storyteller decision.).

And earning Paradox with Mind Effects, while less frequent, was especially devastating. I recall double botching whilst using a Mind-Correspondence Rote in a Frat House..... need I say more?

Plus, Mind 1 was ridiculously overpowered (it allowed you to Multitask and have Photographic Memory!). There was literally nothing stopping it, unless you only fought Mind Shielded NWO constructs or "mindless" Iteration-X bots... or other Mind Mages.

I know in our games, we encountered a lot of stuff that were Mind Shielded (due to various reasons) or yes, constructs. It's that whole, "yes, you have it, but so do we," thing.

The other thing is.... Mind 5? How many people actually have Mind 5? How many people actually have any Sphere in 5? I recall that Mages were supposed to be extremely, extremely rare, and it seemed like the more powerful you got, the more likely you attracted the wrong sort of trouble or went Marauder. In our games, we always started at starting "level" (base char creation and 15 freebies) and even with long campaigns, being able to earn enough XP to buy up Arete and Spheres to five was extremely unusual. Could be that other folks played it differently, but unless you were specifically dealing with very high power level games (wherein probably everyone would have *something* at 5 amongst other things) it's not like that should be a common issue one would be dealing with in your average game of Mage, as far as I am aware.

God, I really should homebrew up a simple, decent system for oWoD Mage. The only real problem with magic was that the system was too disjointed... I bet if I spent a few hours combing the book I could simplify it nicely.

I liked the system as it was, but it was certainly a system that required player and Storyteller ability to make it work.... the mechanics on their own RAW could certainly be ripped up.

A simplified system would be nice...

[Oracle_Hunter]

My point was just that Mind is often the Swiss Army Knife of Mage because it is so low risk and high utility. Plus, you needed Entropy 4 to actually affect other life forms.

And what problems did you find that speeding up, slowing down, or stopping time actually solved them? In one game I used Mind to interrogate a comatose subject, open a door, convert my allies to veganism, avoid an ambush, and to speed-read a book!

But then, I was playing Mage 2e.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I've never been able to find a clear answer for myself.

I actually have a real life debate going on right now. My group is going to stay a WoD game and we're trying to pick oWoD or nWoD. Our two possible Storytellers (one of whom is me) are each more familiar with one or the other. Everybody else in the group is more or less new to the game.

I'm a firm supporter of nWoD, I learned about Masquerade in college, ran through the story and all that. Eventually read up on Werewolf and Mage, neither of which interested me nearly as much. Over all the idea of the game hooked me deep (more storytelling vs. the more math heavy D&D I was playing at the time). I didn't switch into nWoD for a long time. Once I did I was hooked beyond anything I'd experienced in oWoD.

Something about the new system, not sure if it was changes to language, the presentation, or even the artwork (which I think is much better in the nWoD) but something in the core rule book caught hold of me. I started with Requiem and moved into the others. I have all the core game books (including the "side" games) and alot of suppliments.

I always recommend nWoD based on personal taste, not on the basis of it being a superior. And recommend it I do.

[DeathQuaker]

But then, I was playing Mage 2e.

Ooooooooooooooh. Now I understand. Never mind.

[Starshade]

What's wrong with the Atlantis story in new Mage?

Granted, ive not seen any old version of WoD at all, did they have a better origin story?

[mostlyharmful]

What's wrong with the Atlantis story in new Mage?

Granted, ive not seen any old version of WoD at all, did they have a better origin story?

Yes the old one was better. They didn't have one. or rather they had dozens and each seperate tradition and sect and faction had conflicting accounts since they came from different cultures and mindsets. You were never sure what magic was, where it came from or what "Ascension" was, you could encompass a pluralist system and get a whole slew of interesting philosophy and metaphysics and methodology all mixed up together in the same group. You could be as complicated or as simple as your group wanted.

NWoD has one account of where mages come from and that's the end of it.... Bleh...

[Oracle_Hunter]

Now, I haven't read nWoD Mage fluff yet, but here's what was neat about oWoD fluff:

Fluff Summary

Spoiler

Show

Magic was the act of imposing your own views of reality on the world around you. Originally, those Awakened individuals who could exert such force worked, if not in peace, at least with relative tolerance for each other. But, as more people came about, Mages found they could "hard code" the reality around them so that it became easier for them and those who followed them to warp reality, while others found it more difficult. Thus did the first real mage wars come about as different Awakened leaders tried to "control" larger chunks of reality and wipe out their rivals.

These wars wrecked terrible harm on the sleepers, yet the Awakened did not care. Eventually, several sects of Mages came together and formed a pact to protect the sleepers from these terrible wars and Horror From Beyond. This pact created the Renaissance and sought to make the world "safer" for the mundane by banishing terrifying monsters and producing "technology" - a type of magic that operated by fixed and rigid principles, so anyone could use them. By the time the other Awakened realized what was going on, it was too late - the mass of sleeper minds had made "normal" magic increasingly hard to do, and large numbers of their members had been killed by this pact.

Today, that pact is known as the Technocracy, and they continue to try to keep the Sleepers "safe" by removing all sense of wonder from the world, according to their Grand Plan. The remaining mages are organized in a few Traditions which fight to keep their way of thinking alive and to survive in the soul-crushing WoD.

Why it's neat

Spoiler

Show

First of all, everything is a War of Ideas. If you can get enough people to believe things work the way you think they do, then you can change reality. Magic comes first and foremost from the Awakened themselves, not from a mechanical invocation of ancient formula - those formula have no power if you do not believe they work.

Secondly, "orphan" Traditions could invent their own styles of magic, and describe how they saw the world. This allowed for a lot of customization in play (and explains why it seems like everyone was an Orphan sometimes ). Most importantly though, you really had to consider how your character perceives the world around him in order to do anything - and figuring out how to use that and your choice of Foci to do what you want was really fun.

[satorian]

As an example of oWoD flexibility, especially in Mage, in my first game I played an Akashik (sp?) Brother who awakened under the tutelage of a mage who had spent a lot of time "out there" and met real Jedi, or thought he did. When I used Forces, I used the Force. My ST made me wait until I got Forces 4 before I could make my old taped up flashlight put out a lightsaber beam, but then when I did so it was often coincidental (though not when I did it in front of some physicists). Enough people had seen Star Wars that they believed that the lightsabers could be possible. Of course, my mentor went Nephandi (sp? -- god it's been so long) and I had to challenge him. He wasn't my father as far as I know :). Even before I got the saber, I did gross damage. I like to used the Do throw and add kinetic energy from Forces 3. Especially good when throwing one Spiral Dancer into another one. Ah, memories. The point, of course, is that in oWoD magick was ANYTHING. It was true, for me, that the Force was real and the origin of human magick, just as true as any other origin the other characters had. Man I'd love to play oWoD Mage again.