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Thread: Alchemist/grenadier
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2008-09-18, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Alchemist/grenadier
Soo I am looking to make a thrower style grenadier build you know alchemists fire, acid, homemade explosives, the whole shabang all I have so far is I think I will be a gnome or a halfling and take the feats point blank shot, grenadier, and mad alchemist.
Other than that I am open to suggestions I am playing in age of worms and I do not have the books for artificers.DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
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2008-09-18, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
3.X? There's a Grenadier tactical feat in either Complete Adventurer or the PHB2, that's pretty *meh* AFAIR though.
Your best bet is probably just a rogue who uses acid flasks, alchemists fire, etc. I understand you can sneak attack with alchemical items.
The cheesehorror aspect of it is discussed in various threads linked to here.
3:1 odds that's the thread killed. What can I say? I'm a hard act to follow.Last edited by bosssmiley; 2008-09-18 at 01:45 PM.
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2008-09-18, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Alternatively, homebrew the hell outta this idea. The gods know 3.x has a craptastic alchemy system. Maybe you (or someone else) can make one worthwhile.
Damn, now I've got the itch. I'm thinking more grenades, some synthetic biological-esque weapons, faux-potions, specialized lacquers and weird magical effects not covered in spells.
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2008-09-18, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.
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2008-09-18, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
The Grenadier, it has been archived of course so all the fancy BBCode isn't there, but I've heard its a decent class I haven't looked too much into though.
Took a bit more searching but I finally found the Master Alchemist class on these forums, its by Realms of Chaos who is a pretty good 'brewer, but I haven't really looked too much into the class.Last edited by Lord Tataraus; 2008-09-18 at 02:23 PM.
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2008-09-18, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Check the Homebrew Forums here, there's quite a few things that make Alchemy viable beyond first level there. I unfortunately don't know of any specifics, but that's because I hate spending cash in-game on something disposable, so I've never used them. I just know some of them are absolutely loved on here. Check with your DM, see if he'll let you use one.
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2008-09-18, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Last edited by DUSUCK; 2008-09-18 at 02:26 PM.
DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.
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2008-09-18, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
I had a homebrew a while ago for versus Save" spells (like Hold Person and Charm Person and etc.) in flask form. Basically potions that you throw except you use your primary stat in place of the caster's casting stat for the save (Str fighter + Charm Bomb = Enemy: "I like you, you're strong.") Then I made a subset of these called School Flasks which caused a random effect from the chosen school (Enchant = Charm etc, necro = Fear, Inflict, etc, Evocation = Hellblast, etc.) Underpowered and relatively useless? Sure, but fun! Especially when it was random treasure instead of something to buy.
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2008-09-18, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.
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2008-09-18, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
It's been done a lot of different ways, homebrews and variant rules. I had a character who took some craft skills so he could do some Grenadiering on the side but didn't want to take a class in it. I let him mix multiple doses of things together as long as he still paid for it, carried it, and threw it. I also let his craft checks expand the DCs or damage The result was things like blessed acidic alchemists fire, blessed slippery water with caltrops, and darkness tanglefoot bags. The result was enough to make it a viable option in combat, but he was neither a one-trick pony nor a goof ball wasting his time.
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2008-09-18, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
What about playing an artificer, and fluffing your magical items as grenades?
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2008-09-18, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
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2008-09-18, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
I am a follower of the Path Of Least Effort.
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2008-09-18, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Of course, the problem with this is that Eberron books don't grow on trees even if someone doesn't mind this setting, which OP actually mentioned.
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2008-09-18, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Well, it comes with the territory. People are less prone to accepting a suggestion like Tengu's in a game such as D&D, simply because the designers had decided to offer little support in doing stuff like that.
I mean, I could play a Sorcerer who uses evocation spells and call him a swordsman who just "trained really hard" and can shoot fire from bladed weapons, etc. Maybe I could just say my spear is actually a sword designed only for thrusting. Mage Armor could just be activating my "stillness of mind" and grants me better defense, or some other mumbo jumbo.
But, D&D isn't designed like Legos. It's more like, uh, Duplo. You can try to reflavor things - sometimes it'll work, other times it's pretty damn clunky. I think that "clunkiness" dissuades people from venturing too far into this realm.Last edited by Deepblue706; 2008-09-18 at 03:40 PM.
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2008-09-18, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
I think you'd like effect-based games like M&M or BESM, Deepblue706. I know I do. They are the Lego of RPGs.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
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2008-09-18, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
I have alos thought about this a few times...
Feats: Grenadier from PHB2
Mad something alchemist PHB2
PrC's: theres on in the Magic of Farune (FR)
I would also sugest reading any throwing handbooks.. as you need to take similar Feats and options.
edit: also there are some cool alchmist items in the Complete adventurers/mage/arcane/scoundrel
Such as coldfire...Last edited by RagnaroksChosen; 2008-09-18 at 03:46 PM.
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2008-09-18, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
For once, I find myself in agreement with Tengu. Reflavoring classes is one of the things I enjoy about 3rd Ed and it should be done whenever possible. I still side with homebrewing an alchemy replacement, though, because 3.5 lacks a good system for it. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't explicitly set aside an area of the game for alchemy alone and then not follow up on it. It's always been a peeve of mine, so I'll just continue to homebrew around it.
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2008-09-18, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
While I don't have the stuff sitting around any more, I once helped a player homebrew (pun intended) some rules for potions and alchemy stuff. The biggest issues were cost issues, and poison. I can't remember how we tweaked the rules for cost, but I do remember that I allowed him to effectively make "more potent" alchemical items that would do more damage by increasing the craft DC. Alchemist fire that does 2d6 damage instead of 1d6, or "extra-sticky" tanglefoot bags that have a higher escape DC, etc. Same thing with poisons. If I remember, he was a pretty wicked poison-master. We had one encounter that became a slaughter thanks to some contact poisons spread on the floor, and a well placed grease spell by the party sorcerer.
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2008-09-18, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Halfling, and Halfling Paragon levels, will increase your attacks with thrown weapons, if you wanna go down the grenadier path. Don't forget a Handy Haversack for your "grenades"...
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2008-09-19, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Grab a hold of the latest No Quarter magazine (no 20) and take a gander at the Combat Alchemist
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2008-09-19, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
The other thing I'd look at is picking up some Ditherbombs from Races of the Dragon. Very fun, especially for a crazy alchemist kind of character.
Maybe even some Blast Disks from Heroes of Battle would be cool.
They may be in the Magic Item Compendium as well, but I couldn't guarantee that, I'm at work and away from my books.
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2008-09-19, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Best I can think of for low level Alchie-bomber. All levels from 1-3 are rogue.
Alchemist's Fire 1d6
Rogue sneak attack +1d6
Halfling Rogue substitution +1d6
This is level 1. 3d6 for a flat footed range touch attack.
Level 3?
Alchemist's Fire 1d6
Rogue sneak attack +2d6
Halfling Rogue substitutions +2d6
Blade of Blood maneuver (via feat) +3d6
8d6 for a flat footed range touch attack. Add in in the grenadier feat at level 1. Half of it is sneak attack damage, all of it is fire damage. Use Acid as well, for critters immune to fire, and buddy up with a caster to get cheaper crafting. Note, blade of blood requires you take 5 damage to get the 3d6, but that's usually a good trade, when you're pushing 30 damage average with an Alchemist's fire.
Note also, if you take halfling rogue to 10, and get the final substitution, along with woodland sniper feat, and able sniper, you can make a full attack (sniping) and hide (at a -6 penalty for the snipe). If you succeed, next round, you can make a full attack, move, then hide (at a -6 penalty, move granted by woodland sniper). this essentially means that, if you're a good rogue with high hide and the Darkstalker feat, very few things will see you. Follow up with the wilderness rogue variant, and at level 16, you can be hiding in plain sight as an (Ex), in natural surroundings. Level 17, add in shadowdancer, and get it also as a (Su), near shadows. Switching it up could get you Hide in Plain Sight at 11 as a shadowdancer, and at 17 as a wilderness rogue. This will drop your average damage on levels 11, 13, and 15 by 3.5, however.
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2008-09-19, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
The "Shaped Splash" feat (RoE p111) could be very useful for a grenadier-character.
Its is a halfling only feat that allows you to hit two adjacent targets with one "grenade" and you can also choose to spare friendly targets from the splash damage.Last edited by Eldran; 2008-09-19 at 07:26 AM.
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2008-09-19, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
There's a Flask Launcher in Arms and Armor by Bastion Press... It counts as a crossbow except you launch alchemic items instead of flasks...
Flask Launcher - 50 gp
Simple Ranged Weapon (Crossbow)
19-20/x2
Range Increment 60ft
8lbs
Flasks (20)
1gp
(No damage, you simply deal the item's splash damage, in the AOE around your targets
You might wanna get your DM to allow this.
Also there's an splash item called Liquid Salt in Sandstorm which deals quite good dessication damage.Sig'd
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2008-09-19, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
This might fit well with what you had in mind, depending on your char level. The Alchemical Grenadier prestige class, which I made for a campaign about 6 months back.
Spoiler
Table: The Grenadier
Level.........BAB.......Fort/Ref/Will.....Special
1st............+1.........+2 / +2/ +0.....Enhance Bomb, Poison Use
2nd............+2.........+3 / +3/ +0......Precision Bombing
3rd............+3.........+3 / +3/ +1.....Seasoned Bombardier, Tamped Charge
4th............+4.........+4 / +4/ +1.....Alchemical Terrorist
5th............+5.........+4 / +4/ +1.....Hail of Bombs
Hit Die: d10
Requirements
To qualify to become a grenadier, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: 4 ranks Craft (Alchemy)
Feats: Lightning Reflexes
Special: Character must have survived at least one large explosion (such as a Fireball spell) without succeeding on the saving throw, or at least three with successful saving throws.
Class Skills
The grenadier’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Climb (Str), Craft (Alchemy) (Int), Craft (Poison) (Int), Disable Device (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the grenadier prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A grenadier is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.
Enhance Bomb (Ex)
At 1st level, every splash weapon used by a grenadier deals extra damage equal to half his total level (round down). This extra damage is also added to any secondary damage the bomb deals.
Poison Use
Grenadiers are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a weapon (including a spash weapon or bomb). Poison added to a splash weapon hits all targets affected by the splash weapon but has a 50% chance of failing on any given target. This failure chance does not apply to thrown weapons that only affect one target.
Far Shot
At 2nd level a grenadier receives Far Shot as a bonus feat. If the grenadier does not have the normal prerequisites for the feat, it only applies to thrown weapons; otherwise it applies to all ranged weapons.
Seasoned Bombardier (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level a grenadier always takes half damage from explosions and alchemical weapons.
Tamped Charge (Ex)
At 3rd level a grenadier learns to use concussive force and confined spaces to better effect. Any time the grenadier lands a splash weapon on a square within 5’ of an immovable obstacle (such as a wall, large rock, or pillar) the splash weapon deals double damage. Alternately, the grenadier can use his own body as the obstacle, but the splash weapon must go off within 5’ of him.
Alchemical Terrorist
At 4th level a grenadier is able to make spell bombs that mimic the effects of certain spells. The bombs’ effects are considered spell-like abilities. Only damage-dealing arcane spells can be put into spell bombs. Spell bombs can be thrown at a square like a splash weapon (but deal no extra “splash” damage), but are not splash weapons and cannot be empowered by Enhance Bomb or Tamped Charge.
Making a spell bomb takes one day, and only spells the knows can be placed in a spell bomb (see below). The caster level is equal to half the grenadier’s total levels (round down). The grenadier can choose to use a lower caster level if desired. The base price of a spell bomb is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. Additionally the grenadier must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price. If the spell requires a costly material component or an XP cost, the grenadier must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the spell bomb. This is in addition to the base price.
In order to know a spell a grenadier must first test it. Testing a spell requires making an experimental spell bomb using that spell. The grenadier spends one day per spell level working, and must have access to an alchemical laboratory. All the XP and GP cost of making a spell bomb with the desired spell are spent, whether the research succeeds or not. At the end of the research period the grenadier must succeeed on a Craft (Alchemy) check with a DC of 20 + (2 x Spell Level). If the check succeeds, the spell is tested and the grenadier has a single working spell bomb of that spell. The grenadier does not need to re-test the spell to make additional spell bombs using that spell.
If the check fails, all the materials, GP and XP are consumed and the bomb detonates on the grenadier, affecting him exactly as if the spell had been cast on him (or centered on him). The grenadier cannot use the Seasoned Bombardier ability against this bomb. If the grenadier survives (and if local authorities do not turn him out) he can try again as many times as he likes.
If a wizard with a caster level equal to the grenadier’s caster level could not cast a spell, the grenadier cannot test it. If the grenadier can cast a spell normally (for instance, if he took levels in wizard) the spell is automatically tested.
When creating a spell bomb the grenadier makes any choices that would normally be made when casting the spell. The target of the spell is a creature in the square the bomb hits, or an area centered on that square.
Hail of Bombs (Sp)
In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day a grenadier of 5th level or higher can lob a splash weapon or bomb at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target per two levels (round down). Each attack uses the grenadier’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single weapon.
Last edited by Another_Poet; 2008-09-19 at 09:26 AM.
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2008-09-19, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Imbue Spell from PHBII. You can transfer a Touch spell into a weapon. The next time you hit an enemy with that weapon, the spell discharges. The charge only lasts one minute though, so you can't store more then a few things before combat.
Master Thrower PrC. Every thrown weapon attack becomes a Trip attack.
Fire Seeds.
Thunderstones.
There's also a PrC in Complete Scoundrel that makes traps with a variety of effects quickly and easily. A nice DM would let you just throw exploding traps at your enemies.
That should give you most of what you need to be a grenadier, with a minimum of house rules.
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2008-09-19, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
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2008-09-20, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
Thank you for all the stuff you guys I appreciate it
DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.
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2008-09-20, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alchemist/grenadier
It seems to me from the amount of homebrew there is on this, that this is a character concept that is secretly liked by everyone. Hmm.
Sig'd