How do you determine treasure from fights?

[Frosty]

I've just kind of been eyeballing the amount of treasure my party gets, and I think they're a little over-wealthed. Can someone

1) Point me to what page in the DMG that shows me what treasures should be handed out for each level encounter?
2) Suggest some ideas on how to reduce their wealth without pissing them off too much.

[sonofzeal]

Treasure per encounter is actually a little deceptive. A lot of it assumes that the party is using expendables, and selling off a fair amount of items coming in for half price. If they're avoiding expendables and using what you give them, they'll be WAY over WBL if you follow the guidelines. My advice is to make it up as you go along.

As for getting rid of gold... give them something in return. Let them bribe their way through some high-court stuff, or getting minor bonuses (such as paying massive gold for a master rogue teacher, whose instruction improves Trap Sense). Small bonuses that would otherwise be impossible or very difficult to get are nice. It's especially good to boost things that otherwise would lose effectiveness and become more of a liability later in the game. The Fighter could pay to train up his Will, the Wizard could get a few extra hitpoints, and the Cleric could get a special holy symbol that improves his Turn Undead. It might help to explain to the party that their amount of gold is unbalancing, and that you'll do your best to reward them for making these choices for special training.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I look at neccesity. In 3.5 I looked at what could help keep the group on an equal level. Wizards would deal alot of damage, thus they shouldn't be impossible to hit.


In 4e my group looks at neccesity as well. You should have at a minimum one magic item of your level, one level below you, and one level above you. with that we've done fine so far. If an item they've taken proves to be rather useless I drop a better one, or atleast enough gold to buy one.

[BRC]

Generally, I add up the Average Treasure Values for each encounter since the last time I handed out loot, divide that by the number of PC's to get the amount of gold each one gets (Lets call these Treasure Shares), and replaces some of the gold shares with magic items whose values are abit above a single Treasure Share, and PC's either pick gold or a magic item (If there is a magic item nobody wants, I just swap it out for a treasure share of cash.

[FMArthur]

I find that I just have to pre-roll some treasure of various levels and costs beforehand, and then improvise its placement. I always make at least twice as much treasure as is needed, so I'm never caught unprepared to reward the planned stuff or even the strange unforseen sidequests that PCs sometimes pursue. Of course, I've also statted out generic NPCs of various archetypes that I can throw in at will, so maybe I prepare too much for spontaneous non-campaign adventuring compared to the average DM.

[Swooper]

I place treasure only if it makes sense for the creature/NPC to have it, while at the same time trying to make sure the party is getting usable items and is within reasonable distance of their WBL.

[Frosty]

Generally, I add up the Average Treasure Values for each encounter.

Where is the Average Treasure Values?

[BRC]

Where is the Average Treasure Values?

Page 52 of the DMG, Also under "treasure" in the SRD, also if you used the encounter calculator from the SRD it gives you the ATV.

[jcsw]

Treasure per encounter is actually a little deceptive. A lot of it assumes that the party is using expendables, and selling off a fair amount of items coming in for half price. If they're avoiding expendables and using what you give them, they'll be WAY over WBL if you follow the guidelines. My advice is to make it up as you go along.

As for getting rid of gold... give them something in return. Let them bribe their way through some high-court stuff, or getting minor bonuses (such as paying massive gold for a master rogue teacher, whose instruction improves Trap Sense). Small bonuses that would otherwise be impossible or very difficult to get are nice. It's especially good to boost things that otherwise would lose effectiveness and become more of a liability later in the game. The Fighter could pay to train up his Will, the Wizard could get a few extra hitpoints, and the Cleric could get a special holy symbol that improves his Turn Undead. It might help to explain to the party that their amount of gold is unbalancing, and that you'll do your best to reward them for making these choices for special training.

Wouldn't them paying for instructors be equivalent to them buying an item of ,eg, Jumping +3? Except the bonus becomes Competence or Circumstance...

So in effect you're letting them "buy" items that give bonuses, but without having to carry the item or taking up item slots.

[EndlessWrath]

Treasure isn't always wealth. Its also items. Give em some items (not tons of crazy magic ones O_O ) but like... a potion here and there.. And besides. not every encounter will have treasure. If you fight a bunch of bandits... they won't always have treasure. you can still loot the weapons and armor... and a few silver pieces... but generally know...

I'd suggest to continue to ballpark it..but apply it to the story line. they won't get 1337 loot every time they have a fight.

[Comet]

Just turning around to say, that I really like the 4th edition treasure parcel rules. They seem to make balanced and fun treasure hordes almost ridiculously easy to make. Sure they may not be "realistic" or "versimilistic" or whatever if you apply them as they are, but with a bit of pre-planning and mix-mashing you can easily make treasure piles worthy of any ole' adventure.

That's my impression, at least. Sorry to interrupt

[Hal]

Reduce their wealth? Just cut back on what you give them over the next set of encounters. Either have them fight stuff that doesn't carry wealth, or just reduce the value of whatever they fight. Higher level goblins/kobolds/gnolls can be challenging, even if they're only in mundane gear.

Personally, I don't mind giving my players a little too much wealth. The game is more fun when you can buy fun stuff.

Of course, you can always throw in random miscellaneous consumables as well, since most people will just save up their gold for the next enhancement on their weapon or armor. I like the panic buttons (CS) myself.

[Knaight]

In many cases none makes sense, but sometimes you want to make up for it. Wealth by level can pretty much be ignored, and most games don't have it. A sudden boost is often much more fun than a series of tiny upgrades. For instance in a sci fi game you could have a series of little gun modifications, that don't do much, or you could not give those out, and give a big gun modification(such as phasing weapons, which pass through walls). Or there might be a series of fights where you get a wimpy sidearm, maybe some basic protection that you just leave, and eventually you get this:

which totally makes up for it, and feels much more rewarding than an incremental improvement. Yes I drew that.

[Prometheus]

WBL guidelines are just guidelines, modify the wealth only if you personally feel like it is too much. My suggestion would to hand them a quest that lets them understand it will involve using their current resources but with little wealth. For example, going into the wilderness for a rare root that cures an ally's ailment (who is helpful but gives rewards).

[Knaight]

That often works well, but don't poison one of the PCs before hand to enact it, thats just asking for trouble. Another method is to allow them to sink cash into buildings and such, which may give them NPC help occasionally(for instance they build a keep, make it a mercenary camp and sometimes take some of the mercenaries with them on harder missions. The ancient alien artifact method can also be fun in some cases, and if you make it run on gold, problem solved. See the gun I put in my previous post, if that shot plasma and missiles, players might put some money into developing copies of the missiles, which deals with your wealth issues by using expendable resources.

[Triaxx]

By looking at the equipment lists for the enemies, and for the PC's then determining what the latter needs. The rest they can lug around or get in cash value. Which they still have to lug around.

[Hal]

By looking at the equipment lists for the enemies, and for the PC's then determining what the latter needs. The rest they can lug around or get in cash value. Which they still have to lug around.

What? You mean my million gold pieces aren't weightless? That's absurd!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What? You mean my million gold pieces aren't weightless? That's absurd!

1: That's what Bags of Holding are for.
2: Why are you carrying coins? Gemstones, jewelry, spices, there are a lot of things worth more per pound than platinum.

[Oracle_Hunter]

2: Why are you carrying coins? Gemstones, jewelry, spices, there are a lot of things worth more per pound than platinum.

Have you tried buying a drink with a 1000 GP Ruby?

Seriously, in one campaign I gave the PCs a 1000 GP ruby, only to have them find out that nobody had 1000 GP worth of stuff to sell them at any town they went to. Many people were willing to give them gear worth a portion of its true value, but no one could even get close to 1000 GP. I guess that's what you get when you spend all your time adventuring on the frontiers

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Have you tried buying a drink with a 1000 GP Ruby?

Seriously, in one campaign I gave the PCs a 1000 GP ruby, only to have them find out that nobody had 1000 GP worth of stuff to sell them at any town they went to. Many people were willing to give them gear worth a portion of its true value, but no one could even get close to 1000 GP. I guess that's what you get when you spend all your time adventuring on the frontiers

WBL at 10th level is 49,000 GP. 40,000+ of that will be magic items. If they're saving up, though, they may have the other 9 in fluid cash. 200 GP in plat/gold with a few silver, the rest in various mobile forms of cash, such as gemstones. The gold is what you spend, the rest is just so you can have it with you and not worry about encumbrance.

[Triaxx]

Copper is 1oz, Silver is 2oz, Gold is 5oz, Platinum is 6oz. At the player's request, a traveling jewel merchant was added to the random encounter list and I fudge the list depending on how much they complain. He always carries at least a thousand GP worth of diamonds.

And all towns have a Gem Exchange.

[Curmudgeon]

Ignore the WbL for PCs, except when creating characters above 1st level. Mostly you shouldn't hand out treasure at all. Just equip the enemies with what they would reasonably have, using the NPC WbL table (which is only about 30% of PC WbL). At the end of the fight the PCs will have what the enemies used to have, minus any breakage. They can sell that gear or try to use it themselves.

If you think the PCs are getting too rich, use mostly enemies without much stuff: summoned monsters, armies of skeletons, and the like. If they're too poor, then let them encounter enemies with actual treasure -- like dragons, who collect shiny stuff.