Secondary Effects

[LibraryOgre]

Ahh, yes, yet another thread with which to annoy Hzurr.*

So, I'm playing a wizard in our 4e game. My "thing" is thunder and cold, meaning I have a lot of nasty effects based on really loud sounds and masses of cold and freezingness. We even made up a feat to go along with it... Cacophonous Cold; +1 to thunder and cold damage. However, this kind of stuff applies to all editions, and most games.

But, we had a few fights the last game. First of all, we had one in a cave, where Thunderwave came in handy. However, I was thinking about size; I'm shoving out a wave of damaging sound, fifteen feet up, as well as fifteen feet forward. And the cave isn't much more than 10 feet tall? What would be the effect of slamming a lot of sound into a cave roof?

Then, we're fighting a damn slime thingie (three of our folks went unconscious... I was at two strikes, and another damn slime explosion would've killed EVERYONE). I'm using a lot of ice attacks, because that's what I have. However, it's in 20' of water, and I'm dropping ice in a 15' radius, and once in a 25' radius. What would happen if you hit a bunch of ice around something swimming? Similarly, we could ask about lightning strikes in water... but I didn't provide details, because I don't have any lightning powers... yet.

*I should make it clear that I go by his rulings and don't argue them in-game. I bring these up to get other opinions, and maybe change his.

[charl]

Lethally loud sound in an enclosed space: good bye hearing, possible roof collapse.

Dumping ice into water: creates splashes. Won't hurt anything in the water (ice floats) unless the impact is powerful enough to cause a shockwave potent enough to harm whatever living in the water.

EDIT: Of course everything above the surface of the water could get really hurt by ice smashing down on it. The above replies to things below the surface.

[erikun]

Cold spells deal damage by being cold. It doesn't matter if you're standing in water or not, because it's the spell producing the cold. The water isn't going to be anywhere near as cold as the spell you were just slapped with.

If you're asking "why doesn't the water freeze solid?", then it's probably because the spell wasn't that cold. If you're asking "why doesn't the cold water deal damage?", then it's probably because the 'coldness' has disappated. After all, fire spells are very hot, but I've never heard anyone ask if creatures continue to take damage from the heat.

If you tied someone up and left them in the water, then yeah, they'd be freezing within a few minutes. But not within a 6-second turn.

As for the sound, I should point out that Not Every Car is a Pinto. Some things just don't blow up. Perhaps the roof of the cave was strong enough to handle getting hit with 1d6+5 damage several times? After all, if you took a mace and slammed it against one of the walls, I doubt it would collapse everything, unless the tunnel is structurally unsound. Of course, if you want to try aiming your thunderwave at the ceiling, you're more than welcome. I seriously wouldn't expect a massive cave-in from just a Thunderwave.

Or if there is, I wouldn't expect your character to survive.

[Eraniverse]

If you wanted to drag science into things, cold attacks in a watery environment should be much less effective. Water has a very high specific heat and would essentially "soak up" a larger portion of cold than a normal environment.

But ignore that (unless it's being used against you ).

[Prometheus]

The effect of how a sound wave works in a cave depends on how the magic works. If the spell causes one to generate a lot of sound energy waves, than yes, it can target rock and its effect would be magnified in a narrow cavity. However, if it instead manipulates the air to generate a sound attack, than you have less air to work with and can only work with air and therefore don't get any bonuses for using less than your maximum area and cannot target rock.

I don't think ice splashing around or bumped into while swimming is problematic. If your DM wants to account for it, you and it each get some concealment for a round and the floor around the water is now slippery.

[KillianHawkeye]

Realistically, slamming a loud sound into rock or freezing cold into water might have some kind of effect, but this is D&D and reality has very little to do with it.

According to the rules, Thunderwave and probably whatever cold spells you used were Area spells that targetted creatures only. According to the rules, solid rocks (and I think possibly a water's surface) block line of effect. According to the rules, your spells have a fixed area and deal a specific amount of damage, neither of which are affected by your environment.

Of course, if you are into simulationism, you and your DM are free to make up your own house rules, but I can't help you with that because reality and I are no longer on speaking terms.

[Starsinger]

Of course, if you are into simulationism, you and your DM are free to make up your own house rules, but I can't help you with that because reality and I are no longer on speaking terms.

Generally, as a DM I don't allow such side effects. However if you want to change your target "I cast Thunderwave at the cieling" or specifically targeting the water with Ice, then I'd work something out.

[Hal]

As for lightning in the water, the most recent episode of Mythbusters illustrates it perfectly. Salt water isn't the best conductor of electricity, so the more water there is between the source and the person, the less of a jolt they're going to feel.

If you're hitting someone with an effect through water, you should probably come up with range increments and cut the damage in half at each increment. One block is probably realistic, though it makes attacking with such powers in water rather silly.

[Gralamin]

According to the Rules (after Errata at least), A power will not do anything to the environment or objects unless it states it does, or your DM decides that it does.

Following this logically, if say Thunderwave was being used in a cave, and the DM decided it would cause the roof to collapse, the DM should warn the player of the possibility of such, since it isn't part of the rules. If it doesn't harm the players however, when they use their powers, they can observe the terrain effects happening.

[Knaight]

Well thats just asking to be ignored. As for shooting lightning into water, assuming its not pure water it will spread out through it, meaning that if you were trying to target a group with a single person effect, and they were all in the water you might actually want to shoot the water. Its not going to be anywhere near as effective as having the fighter kick a group of people wearing metal iron into a little pile, and then zapping them, but it has a use.

[Hzurr]

Ah yes. That stupid slime. 2 party members within 3 of their negative bloodied value, another in the negatives with two strikes against him, every other member of the party bloodied.... That was a rough fight.

If I recall correctly, the biggest issue with the ice was the difficult terrain. The damage from the ice wasn't a problem, but the question was how will it slow the thing down, and I think I said that it wouldn't cause the thing to be frozen, mainly for the reasons that other people here have mentioned. That being said, I don't think the slime needed to move the entire encounter (that stupid Reach 2 & explosion 3 is a killer), so it didn't really do anything.

The thundering the ceiling I questioned, because if you were really going to be hammering the ceiling that hard, I think the cave would have fallen in, and possibly killed everyone.

On a side note, I do appriciate the way you handle rules disputes in-game.

And, for those of you who are interested, the encounter was 7 PCs, 1 at 2nd lvl, the rest at 1st (though they had enough xp to level up to 2ndat the next extended rest), going up against a Blue Slime (level 3 solo, upgraded to a level 4 because of the number of PCs). A tough encounter, which the party survived by the skin of their teeth (and an awesome crit on a daily by the Warlord).

[LibraryOgre]

And, for those of you who are interested, the encounter was 7 PCs, 1 at 2nd lvl, the rest at 1st (though they had enough xp to level up to 2ndat the next extended rest), going up against a Blue Slime (level 3 solo, upgraded to a level 4 because of the number of PCs). A tough encounter, which the party survived by the skin of their teeth (and an awesome crit on a daily by the Warlord).

As I said, our Warlord was MVP of that fight.

[horseboy]

Ah, Here I was thinking you were looking for more of a "Chunky Salsa" effect with the sound attack. Mmmm, salsa. That would kinda depend more on what the walls of the cave were shaped like and made out of.