[4e]How to kill a Dragon?

[Kyeudo]

I'm running a 4th edition campaign in real life, but I've come on a snag. The plot I want to run involves the PCs being sent to investigate a set of caves that might contain a dragon. The problem is that the PCs are level 1 and the Dragon I want to use (a large Blue) is something like lvl 13.

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless, so it was an option, but in 4th Poison doesn't cut it anymore, as it does very small damage compared to a Dragon's hit points even when it does get through.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do instead?

EDIT: I should probably make this clear. I am not worried about the fight. By the time that the PCs do any dragon fighting, they will be capable of accomplishing the task. What I need help with is what gear I should provide my PCs with to make the employer not look crazy for sending level 1 PCs on a mission to deal with a possible dragon.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Find a lower CR dragon? Make the caves big enough to level them high enough. Let them know in game they're in over their heads and need to become more powerful first.

[sleepy]

hang on a second, this sounds eerily familiar...

I think I'd best avoid this thread from now on.

[RTGoodman]

My first suggestion would be to use the rules in the DMG to drop the Blue down to be a Level 9 Solo Artillery and wait until the PCs are level 5 before they actually fight it.

Alternatively, you could just homebrew a whole new creature at around level 5 that's a "Blue Dragon" but at a lower level and without all the tricks. If you follow the DMG guidelines, it should be pretty balanced. That'd make it a very difficult encounter, but a beatable one.

[Colmarr]

Avoid this combat like the plague. You'll either (a) kill your players, (b) create an expectation that they can take on and kill big stuff, or (c) give them way more xp and treasure than the game assumes that they'll have.

Make the mission all about avoiding the dragon. I know I'd find that an intriguing prospect as a player - investigating a strange place on an urgent mission and knowing that certain death was lurking somewhere nearby.

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

You'd be surprised what PCs will agree to if the price is right (and it's pleasantly easy in 4e to make the price right. Just make one or two of the level-appropriate treasure parcels "payment in advance").

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm running a 4th edition campaign in real life, but I've come on a snag. The plot I want to run involves the PCs being sent to investigate a set of caves that might contain a dragon. The problem is that the PCs are level 1 and the Dragon I want to use (a large Blue) is something like lvl 13.

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless, so it was an option, but in 4th Poison doesn't cut it anymore, as it does very small damage compared to a Dragon's hit points even when it does get through.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do instead?

While this was possible in 3rd Edition as you say, the 4E game designers decided that it didn't make sense for a 1st level party to be able to cheese their way through a significantly higher level encounter. (Think about it, it doesn't really make sense. If it could be done by 1st level PCs, it could be done that way by anyone, since it's the poison doing all the work.) So they rebalanced the game so things made more sense, and now the King has to hire brave and experienced adventurers to kill an adult dragon. In short, your proposal goes against the 4E philosophy.

Note that these kinds of changes are also what keeps the 4E Wizard from single-handedly owning everybody and making the rest of the party irrelevant, since monsters now require teamwork and a whole party of PCs powerful enough to actually fight them.

All that being said, now I'll try to actually help you out.

On page 78 of the Monster Manual (right next to your Level 13 Adult Blue Dragon) is a Level 6 Young Blue Dragon. The Young Blue is still Large sized, and aside from the numbers being lower, is almost identical to the Adult version. I would say you should probably also reduce it down to Level 4 (using the technique described in the DMG) unless your PCs are going to level up before fighting it. A party of 4 or 5 Level 1 PCs should be able to take out a Level 4 Solo as long as they are well rested and still have all their dailies.

[Kyeudo]

The problem is that the reason the party will end up out there is dealing with whatever is going on at the location, which includes the dragon if it's there. They probably won't be level 1 when they get there, probably more likely level 3 ish, but that still puts even a toned down dragon outside their threat range without something to even the playing field a little.

And yes, Sleepy, this is a conversion of the adventure you're running. I'm having to change a ton more than I though in converting it over.

[Asbestos]

Um... give them a bunch of tanglefoot bags?
Anyway, a level 3 party vs a level 6 dragon (the youngest one from the MM) qualifies as a 'hard' encounter according to the DM guide. Its going to be a challenge, not all the heroes might come back, but it is a completely conceivable encounter. If we reduce it to level 4 it becomes a 'standard' encounter for a 3rd level party, but this is a dragon we're talking about, its supposed to be hard. So yeah, make sure they're well rested and either taken on nothing so far that day or only a bunch of level 1 encounters where they won't be popping off their dailies (unless they have poor resource management skills)

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, if they're going to be Level 3, then they should be able to take on the Level 6 dragon with only moderate to serious (as opposed to extreme) difficulty. And if anybody asks, you can say that reports on the dragon's size must have been a little exaggerated (but not by much since they're both Large creatures).

Of course, if you mean that they'll be fighting the dragon plus some other monsters at the same time, that's still going to be a TPK.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm a big fan of the "Dragon as Hidden Danger" approach. Make the Dragon's Caves a vast network of tunnels that are just chock full of Kobold Cultists. The main entrance into the lair is accessible only by air, so if the PCs want to investigate they'll have to go through the tunnels.

The lower tunnels are very narrow, but they get larger as they get nearer to the Dragon. This gives the PCs "safe" areas to wander in, and with some well-planned atmospheric encounters (close encounters and the such), they can get a sense of where the dragon can go.

Add in the ruins of a some great keep that the Dragon needs the kobolds to loot, and some hobgoblins who are currently occupying the keep, and you have an Adventure Path well up Paragon!

[Mewtarthio]

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

Give them a magical smoke bomb loaded with dragon pheremones. If they see Big Blue, they drop it and run like the Nine Hells. Ideally, the pheremones will distract the dragon enough that they can escape and report the success/failure of their mission.

[Tokiko Mima]

Tell them to make dwarf characters, and bring along a hobbit.

[Fri]

Make it plot related? Like, a puzzle boss or something.

Maybe they have the dragon's weakness. Or they have some kind of special trap for the dragon. Maybe the dragon have a weakness for carrot. Something like that. Like, those boss in video game who you can beat in battle, but with great difficulty. There's a better way to deal with it rather than battling it directly

don't forget to make it clear that battling it directly mean painful death. Say it again and again, directly and indirectly.

It's their fault if they still choose to face it in direct battle.

[BobVosh]

Make it plot related? Like, a puzzle boss or something.

Maybe they have the dragon's weakness. Or they have some kind of special trap for the dragon. Maybe the dragon have a weakness for carrot. Something like that. Like, those boss in video game who you can beat in battle, but with great difficulty. There's a better way to deal with it rather than battling it directly

Go Smaug on him, and give him a weak spot.

HIT THE WEAK POINT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

[Khanderas]

Make the mission all about avoiding the dragon. I know I'd find that an intriguing prospect as a player - investigating a strange place on an urgent mission and knowing that certain death was lurking somewhere nearby.

What ? That is Crazytalk, stop talking crazy, you crazy person.
Adventurers murder kill dispense justice and steal loot redistribute assets, specifically dragonhoards.
Sneaking around only makes it easier for the dragon to prepare, attack head on and victory shall be assured, because the GM justice is on our side !
This comment is a work of fiction, character suicide optional.

[Colmarr]

What ? That is Crazytalk, stop talking crazy, you crazy person.
Adventurers murder kill dispense justice and steal loot redistribute assets, specifically dragonhoards.
Sneaking around only makes it easier for the dragon to prepare, attack head on and victory shall be assured, because the GM justice is on our side !
This comment is a work of fiction, character suicide optional.

What? You've never had to escape a prison being assaulted by an overwhelming force of hobgoblins and warforged, where being discovered meant almost certain death (depending on where and how well you ran)?

I have. It was the start to an Eberron campaign, and it was probably the single most tense session I've been a part of.

EDIT: Ironically, my quote displayed your spoiler, which I hadn't previously discovered. You tricksy little hobbit!

[RTGoodman]

Tell them to make dwarf characters, and bring along a hobbit.

Except, you know, that it's their fault there's a dragon about (and a war going on at the same time!), and they had to find a human fellow named BARD to stop said dragon! Harrumph. Hobbits and dwarves indeed.

[BobVosh]

Except, you know, that it's their fault there's a dragon about (and a war going on at the same time!), and they had to find a human fellow named BARD to stop said dragon! Harrumph. Hobbits indeed.

Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

[RTGoodman]

Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

I don't see the problem - it was good enough for Bard, the hero of Laketown and eventual King of Dale. (See also: The Hobbit, which is what Tokiko and I were referring to.)

Also, 'tis a noble profession that's not silly at all, what with the singing at monsters and whatnot.

(I'd link an old Chainmail Bikini strip if they hadn't gotten rid of the comic after it ended, but sadly they did)

[Talic]

A rogue with a good sense of irony?

[Charity]

I can't understand why the OP objects to
'get a white dragon, spray it blue, have an encounter that is reasonable for a 1st level party.'

[nagora]

The Dragon is arrogant; if they do meet it then it talks to them rather than bothering to attack a bunch of newbies. Think of some reason the dragon might want to talk (perhaps it wants information about who might be thinking of sendin in real opposition; perhaps the PC's patron and the dragon have some history etc) and run it as a non-combat encounter. If the players are stupid enough to push it into a combat, then they all die effectively at their own hands.

[charl]

I am a fan of the whole "you don't actually have to fight the dragon personally to kill it"-approach. That is have some kind of secret hidden in the dragon's cave, that reveals the weakness of the dragon or something like that.

It's not that hard to find some kind of plot-based way around it.

[artaxerxes]

Dragon is already dead. Only some crazy low level dragon worshipping minions keep up the pretence that their great master isn't gone....

[Renx]

Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

A bard, maybe?

[Gorbash]

In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless,

Sorry to intrude on topic, but which poison is that? Great Wyrms have Fort saves ranging from +28 to +33. Not to mention they're immune to paralysis.

[pendell]

I regret that I haven't yet read the 4E books, but here's a thought:

Don't make it a straight encounter. Go ahead and make the adult blue dragon as tough as you like. Make it an impossible to win encounter heads-up.

-- then place a one-use-only dragon-killing Macguffin somewhere in the maze.

Or it might not be a Macguffin. Maybe the dragon has sworn an oath to leave forever if someone can steal the Vessel of the Pestle out of his hoard. Or maybe there's an uber-level NPC being held prisoner somewhere in the dungeon who can destroy the dragon if he's released, then leave after the dragon is gone, taking his personal pick from the horde and leaving the rest for the players.

Of course, if you do this, there needs to be some thought for unforeseen consequences. What if the players decide not to use the one-use macguffin to kill the dragon? What if they decide it makes a better treasure than anything else in the horde , then just leave? (Answer: Sooner or later word gets out and all kinds of high-level thieves and bounty hunters are after the party to take the Macguffin from them). If you introduce a high-level NPC, how do we keep him from ruining future adventures (possible answer: He's here under oath, and leaves for an outer plane, never to be seen again). If the dragon has sworn an oath to leave, how long will he/she keep his/her word? (Presto! Instant recurring villain!)

Here's what *I* would do:
-- the PCs enter and come almost immediately face-to-face with the dragon. But it is proud and contemptuous of this pathetic band of adventurers, so much so that it won't lower itself to engaging them in hand-to-hand combat. Instead, it makes a WAGER with them.

.. the wager is some incredibly difficult but level-appropriate task in the dungeon which require brains, skill and teamwork to accomplish. If the PCs win, the dragon will allow them to take whatever-it-is they're trying to rescue away and let them live. If they lose -- the dragon eats them all.

The trick here is to make it less a matter of roll-play and more of a puzzle. Whenever you want your players to face off with a level-inappropriate monster (e.g., hobbits vs. Sauron), you don't want them to ever simply try to tackle said monster in straight combat (as in Call of Cthulhu, where the stats of Cthulhu are simply: You Lose). Instead you need to provide some Macguffin or quest object (the One Ring, the Stolen Data Tapes) which will function as an I Win button for the quest.

That's how the heroes win in any classic fairy tale. They don't win by overpowering the villain , they win by guile and cunning and by out-thinking the villain, exploiting his weakness.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Sorry to intrude on topic, but which poison is that? Great Wyrms have Fort saves ranging from +28 to +33. Not to mention they're immune to paralysis.

An excellent question. The best vermin venoms go from DC 28 to 33 (what an amusing coincidence!). A Dex damage poison would paralyze a dragon easily (not the paralyzed condition, but the Dex 0 indirect paralysis), but I don't see any Dex poisons that are likely to work. Colossal centipede poison has way too weak a DC to do the trick.

As for the OP's issue, just lower the level. The excellent guidelines are in the DMG. You can have a perfectly fine level 4-7 Large or Huge dragon (since size doesn't actually affect much of anything, except battlefield space and movement); just make sure you start with a dragon that has a level lower than 11, because level 11+ creatures have extra powers.

pendell also presents an excellent option. Why should the PCs be tough enough to just toe-to-toe the dragon? Uniquely powerful monsters are, traditionally, defeated with uniquely powerful magic or artifacts.

Following that, why should the poison they're given be from the books? D&D 4E specifically encourages, to my mind, ignoring the rules where convenient. There's fewer spells and other crap spelled out, and what rules exist are mostly for combat. Outside of combat, you should feel free to ignore what rules remain, and just go with the story. Maybe the poison is powerful enough to just kill the dragon, no dice involved. (Trying to kill a dragon way above your power in 3.5 with poison is crazy anyway, because you're relying on something like a 50% chance, even with insanely powerful poison, to save your ass from destruction.)

[Altharis]

This is how I'd run the scenario: A team of enterprising adventurers receive word from a mysterious wizard about a blue dragon terrorising the desert, to help them in their quest, he offers to sell them lightning resist potions at half-price. As they trek through the dungeon, they notice that the lair is surprisingly cold for a desert. After wading through some kobold minions, in an ever-cooling dungeon, they arrive at a chamber and see a kobold wizard trying to poke a sleepy blue dragon! After they defeat the pair, quite easily as the dragon is really tired, they realise that the blue dragon is not a blue, but a white dragon, and that it was suffering from heatstroke. By reading various documents in the kobold wizard's study, they realise that it's originally from the far north, and came up with a plan to steal a white dragon egg, bring it down south where the rich traders pass, pretend it's a cunning and powerful blue, rather than a dumb white, and disguise himself as a human wizard to lure adventurers to their doom. The entire adventure should have the PC's second-guessing their assumptions.

[Yakk]

Your player's goal is to avoid the Dragon. The King managed to bribe/steal/scout/find out some maps of the Dragon's den[1], which gives a route to get to the thing that the King wants that only exposes you to areas that the Dragon can reach for a short dash at one of 3 spots.

Key to this is some secret Dwarf-build passages in the complex that they are pretty sure that the Kobold could not have found, and a key that opens them.

The players are told, in no uncertain terms, that if they encounter the Blue Dragon, they should just run.

[1] The King found a Kobold map from a dead forager. A scholar in the royal library managed to match the map to an ancient book on Dwarven fortifications -- which provided a more detailed map. The King then offered to send an expedition inside for some historical artifacts in exchange for the secret-passage key, and the PCs are the party the King has picked?

Or something like that. Maybe the Dwarves owed the King, so they sent the King the map and key as a gift to pay off a debt? (with the side benefit of the King causing a bother to the Dragon which is raiding Dwarven lands)