OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[Holammer]

This is typical of the misguidedness of this thread. A Chaotic person virtually by definition is disinterested in following proper procedure. Being 'judged and sentenced by one's peers' is something that a Lawful person, not a Chaotic one, would find important. A Chaotic Good person should have contempt for any process an evil wrongdoer could use to escape punishment for his evil acts.

I considered this, while he might be chaotic and thus something of a rebel. He is still good so he won't execute him in cold blood. He would have to bring him to a court (also evidenced by the dialogue), offer his witness no matter how much he loathes the legal system. The thing I'd expect apart from this is to use his charisma to influence the legal procedure to make sure Kubota pays.

Chaotic Good in game play terms means he or Haley for that matter won't be too troubled by ownership laws and such. The can follow a less rigorous moral code compared with the Lawful. Had Elan however, slain Kubota he'd take a trip to Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. He might keep his class skills but mummy will cry.

[GimliFett]

I cannot tell you how awesome I thought this episode was!

[Super_slash2]

There's pretty good circumstancial evidence (if that exists) that V didn't kill him out of any sense of Justice but merely to get on with his search. Look at the scene again, they're walking on a boat with Kabuto tied up. That is most likely Hinjo's boat since Elan is closest to him. V does his research on the same boat. The odds that V flew straight back to the boat after The Demon Fight, resumed his work, was interrupted by Kabuto and Elan talking (perhaps realizing he's not going to get any MORE peace till this is over), kills off Kabuto so that he doesn't need to interrupt him, then disposes off the evidence so that V isn't interrupted by a trial (due to Habeus Corpus failing, among anything else). Look at it again, tell me V is NOT going to go back to the ship and redo his work in the next few strips (barring Elan stopping him).

I am a firm believer in Intent as well as Consequence factoring into if something was good or not. This is circumstancial but I highly doubt V did this for a good reason, even if he removed an evil person. Discussing his act as being good doesn't even compare to the paladins, who at least have a good motive, if misguided motive at heart.

[Prowl]

I considered this, while he might be chaotic and thus something of a rebel. He is still good so he won't execute him in cold blood. He would have to bring him to a court (also evidenced by the dialogue), offer his witness no matter how much he loathes the legal system. The thing I'd expect apart from this is to use his charisma to influence the legal procedure to make sure Kubota pays.

Chaotic Good in game play terms means he or Haley for that matter won't be too troubled by ownership laws and such. The can follow a less rigorous moral code compared with the Lawful. Had Elan however, slain Kubota he'd take a trip to Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. He might keep his class skills but mummy will cry.

You lose me where you say a Chaotic person has to bring someone to court. In my understanding of Chaotic, following the law is the last thing they have to do, and that the only reason they would follow the law is if the law would have them do something they would do anyway, law or not.

Consider:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html

Notice the reason that Belkar gives - it's not because he's Evil, it's because he's Chaotic.

[Starbuck_II]

Elan is CG not LG. A bard can't be LG.

No, an ex-Bard can be LG. Remember Elan isn't Bard X:
He is Bard X/Dashing Swordmen Y.

He stopped leveling as a bard and is now Prcing into Dashing Swordsmen. once he left Bard he can be whatever alingment he likes.
If he ever want to take another Bard level though; he must be non-lawful. But he has a few level to go before he runs out of the Prc (unless it is a 5 level Prestige Class).

[Kaytara]

There's pretty good circumstancial evidence (if that exists) that V didn't kill him out of any sense of Justice but merely to get on with his search. Look at the scene again, they're walking on a boat with Kabuto tied up. That is most likely Hinjo's boat since Elan is closest to him. V does his research on the same boat. The odds that V flew straight back to the boat after The Demon Fight, resumed his work, was interrupted by Kabuto and Elan talking (perhaps realizing he's not going to get any MORE peace till this is over), kills off Kabuto so that he doesn't need to interrupt him, then disposes off the evidence so that V isn't interrupted by a trial (due to Habeus Corpus failing, among anything else). Look at it again, tell me V is NOT going to go back to the ship and redo his work in the next few strips (barring Elan stopping him).

I am a firm believer in Intent as well as Consequence factoring into if something was good or not. This is circumstancial but I highly doubt V did this for a good reason, even if he removed an evil person. Discussing his act as being good doesn't even compare to the paladins, who at least have a good motive, if misguided motive at heart.

Hm, your 'circumstance evidence' isn't really convincing... Sure, we can assume Vaarsuvius came back, was annoyed with the noise, came out and zapped Kubota just for the hell of it. But actually, considering how intelligent Vaarsuvius is, the elf is certainly aware of the repercussions of such an action and would not do so lightly.

It is at least exactly as probable that Vaarsuvius came back to the boat, heard Kubota ranting, and, armed with the knowledge that this the villain who's responsible for most of their troubles since the battle, decided to eliminate this villain as a certain menace rather than leave it to the justice system to decide, after it has already failed numerous times.

Before Vaarsuvius gives his own explanation of his motives, as I suspect the next strip will show, all we can do is guess.

[sihnfahl]

I considered this, while he might be chaotic and thus something of a rebel. He is still good so he won't execute him in cold blood. He would have to bring him to a court (also evidenced by the dialogue), offer his witness no matter how much he loathes the legal system. The thing I'd expect apart from this is to use his charisma to influence the legal procedure to make sure Kubota pays.

Elan's high in charisma but lacks int. His Knowledge (Azure City Law) check probably stinks to high heaven compared to K's. All Elan can do is argue some points of fact that can be twisted or refuted by K. And K also has a good Charisma check.

Now, as to why Elan -had- to bring K to court?

To follow his bardic nature, of course; the side-story of K versus Hinjo et al called for closure. Said closure would have been a large trial, the exposure of K's misdeeds, the attempted assassinations, the death of Therkla, the involvement of Qarr... you know. Story. Plot.

Elan's first reactions should be along the lines of him realizing what V did for the side-story.

[spectralphoenix]

because your trying to disprove something because it doesn't support your argument. Subjective interpretation? There is a whole section on mercy another on taking prisoners. nitpicking at flaws is like me saying the PHB's aligniment section is irrelevant because of the stupid diplomacy rules

But they all fall into the category of "things the BoED says are always evil." You chose certain parts of that category that shouldn't apply because they are stupid. Therefore, anyone can choose parts of that category that shouldn't apply because they are stupid.

Why wouldn't it be law? The book makes it clear. SO basically, it doesn't apply, because you don't want it to apply

The book also makes it clear that poison use is always evil. You can't cherry-pick the parts that everyone is supposed to accept as "law."

1) Working with OOTs, saving the world ect. she isn't good herself, but using the methods of your enemies is an example of becoming what you fight

So is Belkar a hypocrite? He also works with the Order and is saving the world. I'm pretty sure no one ever took that as an announcement that he was Good.

2) of course its cowardly, because killing a man who not only can't fight back and is helpless, but also willingly put his life in your hands is simply craven. It isn't respect for life (good) nor is it honorable, its an act of evil

Last time I checked, "cowardly" implies that the action was taken out of fear. I could see this argument if V was afraid to take Kubota in a fair fight, but I feel entirely justified in claiming that V would have opened up a king-sized can of Apocalypse on Kubota even if he was armed.

1) Well established. You have his bragging/goading. That isn't well established. What your proposing is giving up before even trying, and accepting murder as the only answer and that is not in the nature of good

Hinjo himself admitted that his word against Kubota's wasn't good enough in the ninja incident, so I don't see how the Katos (who rank considerably lower) would do it.

So are you saying that if V let them go through with the trial, waited for them to find Kubota not guilty, and then disintegrated him, that would have been okay (since he tried the other option?)

2) And even then, murder is not the only solution to the problem. By committing evil, you give into evil and hand them a victory

Who exactly is "them?" I'm pretty sure Kubota wouldn't consider that a victory.

1) But he hadn't caused the death of innocents and had still surrendered, and thus a prisoner. When one surrendereds, it is the duty of good, to put themselves above their enemies and honor their enemies surrender, other wise they are simply murderous brutes hiding behind a shield

He wasn't "surrendering." Surrendering implies a cessation of hostilities. He was just moving on to the next phase of his plan to start a civil war.

2) Why wouldn't they? Are you saying you have 100% absolute proof he would win? No, you have his bragging.

Again, Hinjo said he, the ruler of Azure City and commander of the Sapphire Guard, couldn't take him down with just his testimony. Hinjo knows the political situation extremely well.

against hte spell "detect lies" not against being charged guilty

See above for my explanation why he wouldn't be found guilty.

1) As murder is always evil in D&D, your arguement holds no weight
2) Yeah, i do. Death is not the only solution . Just because he is evil and guilty, does not mean we need to solve things through killing, which is not what good in D&D stands for

from
EE

Alright, hit me. What were some of V's other options?

[spectralphoenix]

Show me a single standard class or prestige class that lets you commit evil acts & Lay on Hands in the same 4 hour span.

You can't do it.

Tattooed Monk with Nightingale Tattoo.

[spectralphoenix]

Except now V, my new least favorite charectr, is going to go on trial for murdering an inocent man, as the Law (at least where I am) states that you cannot pass trial on a dead man. I assume the Paladins have a similar law. As such, Kabuto may have been guilty, but he was never convicted or even formaly charged for that matter. V is going to be guilty of murder and she's the one who's going to go on trial, and possibly cause the unity of the fleet to disentigrate (irony), resulting in the almost guranteed doom of the entire Azurite people. And then she won't care, and Durkon and Elan will abandon her, and she deserves it. I may have hated Kubota, but I still wanted him to be done in by his own hand, not Deus Ex Machina.

If Elan keeps his mouth shut, I'm pretty sure there isn't much evidence pointing towards V. Also, high level wizards don't have to stand trial if they don't want to.


Also, it's not a Deus Ex Machina. V is a main character doing something fairly in-character using a power s/he's already been shown to have.

[LordVader]

It's also quite amusing how people are debating the ethics of murder in a game that is based around breaking into the homes of beings that have most likely never done anything to you, killing them, stealing their valuables, and leaving.


Come on, guys, lighten up.

[banjo1985]

Well...that was unexpected

V seems to be getting a little out of control the longer he goes without real rest. At least Kubota's gone, I really disliked him.

[bue52]

You lose me where you say a Chaotic person has to bring someone to court. In my understanding of Chaotic, following the law is the last thing they have to do, and that the only reason they would follow the law is if the law would have them do something they would do anyway, law or not.

Consider:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html

Notice the reason that Belkar gives - it's not because he's Evil, it's because he's Chaotic.

That is not really the case, if you look carefully at Belkar's motives, and his trend of doing things, it is not just that he is Chaotic, but rather, he is chaotic evil, so Evil which by nature would obstruct laws that are meant to display order, and instill a just system to everyone, would be neglected. A Lawful evil would disregard the law, though he/she may use it to their own advantage AKA Kubota. Chaos, does not equate to I hate society and its laws, rather, it is more towards the methods in which a person would structure his/her methods of doing things. With a step by step structure, or an in the heat of the moment-ish structure.

[Emmerson Grant]

Heh, for all the times V complained about Haley's cutting the
Gordian Knot, he sure liked to disintegrate the red tape.

Hail, V!

[Holammer]

You lose me where you say a Chaotic person has to bring someone to court. In my understanding of Chaotic, following the law is the last thing they have to do, and that the only reason they would follow the law is if the law would have them do something they would do anyway, law or not.

Consider:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html

Notice the reason that Belkar gives - it's not because he's Evil, it's because he's Chaotic.

When I think CG I think Robin Hood.
When I think CE I think Satan's little helper.

Just because they share the word Chaotic it doesn't mean that a Good person will harvest the kidneys of a bad guy as some sort of twisted mirror image of the Evil one. Because the Good person stands above that.
Using the available legal system is Elan's only option here.

[Arcadius798]

well, that certainly sucked for kabota, i honestly thought he'd die a little more...flashy

[spectralphoenix]

Additionally, Elan is a Dashing Swordsman. He plays along with the villains because thats what a "classic" damsel-saving hero would do. V does not.

[Jackylhunter]

I agree with V, lets get on with the story...
-Jackylhunter

[Netaria]

All I have to say is, that was fantabulous.

<3's V, seriously. (Now someone knock'em out.)

[deworde]

I am a firm believer in Intent as well as Consequence factoring into if something was good or not. This is circumstancial but I highly doubt V did this for a good reason, even if he removed an evil person. Discussing his act as being good doesn't even compare to the paladins, who at least have a good motive, if misguided motive at heart.

I agree. A lot of people support "killing the evil guy", but fail to consider that this doesn't seem to be uppermost in V's mind. At what point does someone cross the line from "okay killing" to unacceptable killing? Would killing Therkla be okay because her romance with Elan might slow things down?

[Iruka]

I think I just fell in love with a certain wizard
morally debatabel, but still awesome timing

[Eric]

"Defense's wittiness." "Varsarious, do you believe you would have the ability to overcome a zone of truth spell, such as this one, with the arcane powers you possess?" "ABILITY!? My arcane might is such that etc etc etc..." "Move the wittiness' testimony be struck from the record."

And if V did do that (which would be "lying in court" unless he had a spell acting that could avoid a zone of truth), it would then go:

V: And since you believe that your "truth binding" is fallible, you admit that there was no way to prove that the murdering swine was telling the truth. Point proven. Now ask Elan what Kabuto said he'd do if he got to trial and don't forget to ask him if he can avoid the zone of truth. He will show Kabuto bragging about how he would avoid justice and continue his treasonous acts and continue killing unnumbered innocents"

With Elan backing him up. With Kazumi and Digo also under geas to tell the truth (as well as being nobles too, and were they Azure Guards and Paladins to boot?) also showing how Kabuto bragged about how he'd flimflam his dastardly plan into power.

And all of this without Kabuto TRYING LIKE HELL to twist the proceedings.

That last bit is why this will not constitute anything worse than was doomed to happen if Kabuto were not summarily executed. It would not have worked perfectly, even if they had proven his guilt and then executed him: Kabuto would be DELIBERATELY trying a "scorched earth" policy if it looked like he would lose. He would try ANYTHING to ensure that although Hinjo would survive, he would be humiliated and abused as he threw accusations against Hinjo.

Hinjo would have his leadership damaged and that damage would NOT be undone by even a fair case showing and proving Kabuto's guilt. Because Kabuto would accuse it of being a fit-up. He'd accuse the OOtS team to ensure that nobody would trust them. He'd cry and lament, lying through his back teeth and these words would HAVE to be heard, else those who want to believe Hinjo bad would confirm to themselves this was a put-up job. And the words being heard by those same people would confirm to them it was a put-up job. There would be NO WAY for Hinjo to profit from the death of the villain.

Kabuto is a vengeful little bastard (smug, rather than magnificent) in the same way as the Oracle ensured that even though he'd "lose" the argument, he'd ensure that the "winner" would be harmed by it. Kabuto would do the same to the OOtS team and to Hinjo.

[Eric]

I agree. A lot of people support "killing the evil guy", but fail to consider that this doesn't seem to be uppermost in V's mind. At what point does someone cross the line from "okay killing" to unacceptable killing? Would killing Therkla be okay because her romance with Elan might slow things down?

If there is a rabid dog, do you kill it with vengeance in your heart, or just remove the infected animal?

If your parent were dying from a very painful cancer, would it be "Good" to keep them alive as you see their last painful heartbeat wind its way through her parchment skin, or put her in the movies? Hang, on, no I'm doing the wrong sketch. Or would it be "Good" for you to end the pain and suffering?

In "Of Mice And Men" was George evil for killing Lennie while Lennie was unaware and unable to defend himself? Killing a defenseless man is ***always*** evil, right?

If whoever killed Saddam Hussein was happy at that death (in fact, if ANYONE was genuinely HAPPY at the death), is that not evil wending into the heart? Dispassionate removal is the only way to ensure that you are not letting evil into your heart. And your joy in killing should never be in existence.

So I would argue that V's dispassion is the best way to ensure that evil is not in his heart and they are merely doing a job that must be done.

Like a rabid dog, that cannot HELP but be dangerous to the public, you kill them without passion and move on.

[Belkster11]

I say V's reaction is very reasonable. He's sick and tired of the feud between the Kobota and the Hinjo clans. All he wants to do is just locate Haley, Belkar and Skele-Roy so he can reunite the group and continue plotting Xykon's destruction.

We know V's gonna get away with it. Hinjo may be a paladin, but I trust there's a brain in there. Hinjo isn't about to arrest a powerful wizard, especially one he could put to good use.

If he goes against V, hell may break loose.
I mean, all V has to do is wave his hands and Hinjo's ship goes down like the Titanic...

or...more like a ship that suddenly vanishes into a pile of dust.

But yeah, regardless of what V does, I don't think he's gonna get the proverbial slap on the wrist.

[Ridureyu]

Yay! This is the first time in a long time that something decent happened.


Now his ninjas need to avenge him.

[Eric]

V, however, snuffed the aforementioned scumbag like a candle flame AFTER he was tied up and not an IMMEDIATE threat (though at least a probable future one). Whether V did so to prevent him being a potential future danger, or whether V is simply sick and tired of being sick and tired, is yet to be made clear.

Why must someone be an IMMEDIATE threat to be dealt with?

Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Written to stop a potential threat. Not the immediate one.

Also, if you want to "prove" Evil, just take Kabuto's ring, show how he'd used Poison (which, for EvilElitest is ALWAYS EVIL) and how he'd used it on Therkla. Doesn't matter if Therkla is evil, using poison is according to words that are in the BoED is evil no matter the reason.

[eastpaw]

Rich, you win with this one. You really do.

[kukn]

Awesome. (Yes I know it's been said a hundred times already.)

V is becoming more and more interesting. One of the most interesting character developments I've ever seen/ read. His haughtiness, anger and disrespect of his fellow party members (not to mention everyone else) may well be the party's undoing in the end. Kabuto's disintegration is just a sign of what V is now, it is not a changing point. That happened a hundred strips ago.

[FatJose]

He did Gust of Wind for a reason. People disappear at sea. It happens. Kubota goes on a stroll on the deck, a wave hits a little too hard and..."trip"

Know what I mean?

[Eric]

Except now V, my new least favorite charectr, is going to go on trial for murdering an inocent man, as the Law (at least where I am) states that you cannot pass trial on a dead man.

And you can't kill a dead man. So if the "prosecution" wants to prosecute, they can't use THAT clause.

What will happen is that there won't be obfuscation of the truth by a slimy little weasel during trial. Doubly so if V is taken to task over killing that weasel: after all, they can't stop the evidence of his malfeasance from being put forward since this is evidence in the INNOCENCE in another case, not defamation of the Kabuto line.

Exactly like when someone tries to silence you for libel, you can bring forth the information that proves the accusations and this proof cannot be quashed because the person being libelled is not in court.

If you were to make the accusation in the court of law, you must prove your case. If they take you to court for libel, they must prove their case.

So you hope to be taken to court and THEN you can release evidence.

And so libel cases are often settled out of court. Because the one making the court case to "protect their good name" doesn't want people to see how "good" their name really is.