OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[Eric]

Elan is CG not LG. A bard can't be LG.

And only someone munchkin ing would change alignment just so they could abandon their original class for another.

[Ridureyu]

He did Gust of Wind for a reason. People disappear at sea. It happens. Kubota goes on a stroll on the deck, a wave hits a little too hard and..."trip"

Know what I mean?

Pretty much.

"After murdering his loyal henchperson, Kubota tried to escape via boat. The boat sank."

[Wikkin]

Of course you realize what this means...

Elan could have hit him a lot harder and still gotten away with it!

[Eric]

i'm talking about evil acts, IE crimes against good, not crimes against a society, the latter which are totally subjective
from
EE

But your stance is entirely predicated on "Follow the law == Good". You quote selectively from BoED where that statement is true and avoid sections that say otherwise.

If you kill a billion insects with "Death Spell" that are swarming and merely wanting lunch, they had no chance to surrender, no malice and comiting no crime.

And for you this act would be evil.

And taken to the extreme, the Evil Overlord with the doomsday device isn't *actually* pressing the "boom" switch *right this instance* so is only a POTENTIAL threat. So shooting that SOB in the head when their hand goes toward it MUST be evil. Yeah?

What about Carcer? Never intended to surrender. When he said "I surrender" it was only to get you off your guard and stab you to get away. And how does V know this is not going to be the case? One Ninja is still unaccounted for and Elan isn't a tank to take a mid-level (especially poisoned) sneak attack. How does V know this isn't going to happen?

[Kheldarath]

that was a brilliant episode! hehe.

[Jorrath_Zek]

Remember that Elan said, "Dun Dun DUN" when V gave indications that his personality has shutdown.

Elves need to rest, even if they don't sleep. How long has it been since V took the time to rest? His body is failing, and now his mind is being affected.

Insane, powerful Elf who literally allows himself to die in the pursuit of power, with a Powerful Cleric trying to keep that powerful Elf alive and in the world...

What's positive Elf Lich called again?.. Baelnorn?

[Eric]

Because it is evil.
You are causing unnecessary suffering to that orc.

Nope, if you captured the orc, tied them up, made them wait to find out if they could get mercy (from those round-eyes? Pfft yeah). Making them walk to their doom with no way of changing it. Worse, what if it was an air sprite or other agoraphobic monster? Putting it in prison is TORTURE.

Shooting straight in the head kills instantly. A coup-de-gras does in D&D terms. No pain, no suffering.

And in Japan, only those without honour surrendered. And those without honour were not humans and were not deserving of life.

Don't put western culture (which has been broken COUNTLESS times anyway) on another culture's moral system.

It could be that V's actions are, to the nobles, EXACTLY the right thing to do. His actions cannot be proven, he's won his aim. He's right. And that's a viewpoint that HAS been accepted in literary fiction many times. Read "Daughter of the Empire" for one example.

[danielmayer]

The usage of gust of wind was to save debates with the (at this time) non-present young family. So far only Elan and V know about what happened.

The comment of V was clearly a statement for TN because it simply doesn't bother him wether life or death, law or chaos is needed to reach his/her/its goal: to find Haley and get a grip on Roy, both good friends.
A really good show of TN imho.

[Eric]

YAY!

I say clearly Chaotic Neutral for V's action... Chaotic because V was blatantly ignoring law and order for the sake of expediency

But a creature of pure law would KNOW that Kabuto deserved death. Would KNOW that death was the only answer. And so carry out judgment.

Immediately.

Where a purely chaotic person may have decided that Kabuto had lost his scheme and maybe he'd learned a lesson. That there's a law against it doesn't matter. And since they lost and continue to lose, why waste time on lawful prosecution?

You can argue either way and it still fits.

[Ridureyu]

You're talking about Japan now?

Should we discuss WWII-era Japan's treatment of prisoners based on their concept of how "dishonorable" surrender was?

[Werekat]

It could be that V's actions are, to the nobles, EXACTLY the right thing to do. His actions cannot be proven, he's won his aim. He's right. And that's a viewpoint that HAS been accepted in literary fiction many times. Read "Daughter of the Empire" for one example.

Now THAT would be a golden solution to this arc. The Paladins angry... But the Nobles backing off (albeit temporarily) because they were bested by their own rules. Kudos to you, sir Eric!

[Yukitsu]

To reiterate my point, EE, look at page the latter half of page 73 of the book of exalted deeds, keeping in mind that assassination is murder.

[Taljen]

This is not PHIL 101. V is clearly not evil. Get over it. As for the whole "murder" cries, you kill things in D&D. A lot. That applies to Good, Neutral, and Evil. Some chaotic good would have done what V did, most true and chaotic neutrals would have, and yes, same goes for evil. Just because a lot of alignments WOULD do the same thing in this one instance doesn't throw away V's entire record.

[Llelldorin]

It could be that V's actions are, to the nobles, EXACTLY the right thing to do. His actions cannot be proven, he's won his aim. He's right. And that's a viewpoint that HAS been accepted in literary fiction many times. Read "Daughter of the Empire" for one example.

I love this bit of speculation. If Kubota died because he incorrectly categorized V as "effectively a Paladin," it'll be interesting to see what happens if the other nobles now start treating V as a rival (and bloody dangerous) noble.

[KIDS]

V is awesome and the strip is awesome, but his visage full of cracks and with oversized eyes scares the crap out of me...

[Athaniar]

Well, that was unexpected.

I do believe V is walking down the road of Vecna, Szass Tam, Kel'Thuzad, and Xykon. I don't think of him/her (I'm neutral in that issue, thank you) as evil (but killing Kubota was probably evil), but judging by his/her condition, it doesn't bode well...

[Llelldorin]

This is not PHIL 101. V is clearly not evil. Get over it. As for the whole "murder" cries, you kill things in D&D. A lot. That applies to Good, Neutral, and Evil. Some chaotic good would have done what V did, most true and chaotic neutrals would have, and yes, same goes for evil. Just because a lot of alignments WOULD do the same thing in this one instance doesn't throw away V's entire record.

There are two bits of speculation here, which have to be kept separate:

(1) Was frying Kubota an evil act?

(2) Is V an evil character?

It's very clear that the answer to (2) is no, at present--V is fighting to save the universe, and is driving Vsself into the ground out of anguish at not being able to save friends. Those aren't the actions of an evil being. On the other hand, V couldn't care less about the dirt farmers, so neutrality seems more likely than good.

I think it's a stretch to claim that the act itself was anything but evil. That's not necessarily a problem for a neutral character, unless V starts making a habit of roasting every obstacle. V has always had a justifiable but dangerous streak of arrogance that could easily lead V downwards from neutrality.

[pendell]

But a creature of pure law would KNOW that Kabuto deserved death. Would KNOW that death was the only answer. And so carry out judgment.

I must disagree.

A creature of pure Law would be bound to operate within a lawful framework. A creature of Law would not condone unlawful punishment. Unless the creature of pure Law was itself a magistrate, given legal power to prosecute, condemn, and punish, it would have no right to exact punishment from the guilty.

A creature of Law, therefore, would be required to bring Kubota before the nearest competent authority and work for his conviction and punishment within the legal system.

To a creature of pure Law, Law = Good. To such a being, an unlawful act is automatically a wrong act, and this they will never do.

The reason She Who Must Not Be Named could do Detect Evil + smite was because she was a commissioned officer of the law -- divine law -- to execute evil whenever and wherever she found it. Most law officers do not have a writ nearly so broad.

For most people the powers of the law are broken into four: the power to arrest, the power to prosecute, the power to condemn, and the power to carry out the sentence. A being of pure law would summarily slay Kubota only if it possessed all four of those powers. Absent such powers, the most a being of pure law could do would be the equivalent of Citizen's Arrest.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Woof]

V is all sorts of awesome.

[alfredbester]

This sort of ending doesn't only destroy a promising future plotline, it also actively taints and spoils everything leading up to it - Burlew is in effect openly conceding this entire sub-plot's ultimate irrelevance with such a perfunctory ending that directly admits the plot's incidental nature. This corrupts the memory of several dozen comics with a deflating sense of purposelessness.(

To me this sort of ending makes everything leading up to it 10x more hilarious at least. And it is SO DnD.

[Eran of Arcadia]

Wow, great strip. I haven't read all the comments, but who thinks that this will affect V's alignment?

I kid, I keeed . . .

Although the way K got zapped like that in the middle of his monologue did remind me of a great moment in the Heroes premiere last night:

Spoiler

Show

Sylar had broken into Claire's house, and trapped her in the closet. He then proceeded to spent several minutes talking about power and how He Was Different and all that jazz, getting so caught up in monologing that he failed to notice Claire sneak up on him, right until she stabbed him in the heart with a kitchen knife. I cheered. Of course, things didn't go so well for Claire after that, but still . . .

I just about cheered out loud. Since I didn't see the update until this morning, it made me a great birthday present!

[Partywhipple]

I am pretty sure I would consider that a Chaotic GOOD action. I know killing someone without a trial seems evil but he just explained graphically why he can NEVER be brought to justice. A paladin wouldn't have done that but I can't blame V at all. He doesn't believe in the system. And I wouldn't either considering all they have learned about that society. I sure hope he doesn't come back.

[dcviana]

Well, there are definite advantages to being True Neutral/Unaligned.



Don't think so. They need to be said to the right person at the right time for the wrong reasons. I don't think, from a neutral standpoint, that this would be considered "wrong". Depends on Elan and Durkon's reactions.

Well, as I see it, Kubota WAS the right person (the person that at that moment deserved it) at the right time (If V didn't do that at that moment, Kubota would have got away again) AND for the wrong reason (kill an unarmed, dominated and willingly surrendered enemy just because he has a plan to escape is still wrong and not a good act at all)

Just my opinion, but malakim2099 may actualy have a point.

[Eric]

I must disagree.

Ye, I know you must

A creature of pure Law would be bound to operate within a lawful framework. A creature of Law would not condone unlawful punishment. Unless the creature of pure Law was itself a magistrate, given legal power to prosecute, condemn, and punish, it would have no right to exact punishment from the guilty.

Why? You make this assertion. But the absolute Law (Mechanus) has each cog determinedly doing its thing. No free will, nothing other than the inevitable. And if the perp IS guilty and death IS the only answer and exection IS the method that will be applied, Lawfully, kill them now.

***GOOD*** would be "I can't tell for CERTAIN, so we must have proof" (not in this case). Or "It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished" (again, natch).

But that's not LAW. That's LAWFUL GOOD.

To a creature of pure Law, Law = Good. To such a being, an unlawful act is automatically a wrong act, and this they will never do.

Nope. LAW==LAW. There IS no good. Good is bad because it encourages "mercy" which is (from another fantasy book, "Wizards First Rule" series, I think) injustice to the innocents who pay for your mercy. Evil is bad because it wastes time and resources (torture is a terrible way to get information). See the Eddorians in the Lensman series (Second stage, where they are with the Eich, who ARE evil).

So LAW == LAW.

[/QUOTE]

[Eric]

(kill an unarmed, dominated and willingly surrendered enemy just because he has a plan to escape is still wrong and not a good act at all)

Kabuto had not surrendered. He'd just avoided a fight. He's just fighting with finessing the rules, rather than poison weapons.

[Hydro]

This is why every good party needs one neutral member. To do the dirty work.

Awesome comic. I wonder how big the thread will get with this debate raging? I'ma guess 31 pages before the next comic; any takers?

[Murphoid]

I think it's a stretch to claim that the act itself was anything but evil. That's not necessarily a problem for a neutral character, unless V starts making a habit of roasting every obstacle. V has always had a justifiable but dangerous streak of arrogance that could easily lead V downwards from neutrality.

I agree. V has let her obsession with her goals begin to turn her. There is no doubt that she performed one evil act here. Also it is undeniable that her behavior has become decidedly less kind recently.

I can't wait to see how Durkon will react when he hears about this. Of course he will cause Elan can't keep secrets. (Does he even know what a secret is?)

[Eric]

I think it's a stretch to claim that the act itself was anything but evil.

Is it evil to kill another who killed your family in front of your face?

Only if you enjoyed it. Only if you do to them WORSE than they did to you.

If V'd danced for joy or said "Booyah, biatch!". Yes.

Like when Sam Vimes killed Angua's brother in "The Fifth Elephant". Sam knew if he'd said "Fetch" then what he'd done WOULD be murder.

And there are VERY FEW people as LAWFUL GOOD as Sam. Esmie is about the only other. Both have them watching themselves, afraid they'll LIKE the power and turn to the bad. Sam is so lawful he defeats an unkillable demon of pure chaos because HE WILL NOT.

V's just done a Sam.

[silversaraph]

Is this like a record number of posts for a discussion thread for such a recent comic?

[Devoured_Dude]

Definitely a neutral act. True neutral, perhaps.
While part of me is quite glad that V nipped that trial in the bud, the other part is cringing at what is to come and poor Elan is going to be caught in the middle.

You know how I know that V is still Good-Aligned?

She said "please."